Got a young family (2x <5 years) and thinking of getting a campervan for holidays.

In general STW wisdom, is this a good idea?

Has anyone experience of the above vans? worth getting or is there something better (c£15k max budget)

cheers

I would always hire rather than buy unless you are going to use it every weekend. Hiring allows you to have a van that you couldn't afford to buy – I have hired one worth £60 000 quid – it was great.

i always thought about old camper vans in the same way i thought about old houses:

"they're nice to look at, and i'm glad someone goes to the trouble of keeping them going, but i'm glad it's not me"

then i bought an old house, and now i'm convinced; life is too short to own an old camper van.

for the money you're talking about, you could get a Mazda Bongo; zero kudos, but faster, cheaper, more comfortable and more reliable.

(the hard shoulder of the M5 is littered with broken down VW camper vans, and ebay is full of modified T4's – it seems removing the suspension, and fitting the wrong wheels are common 'improvements')

Cue mr camper-van fan-club uk: about to tell us how he squeezed a subaru 2.5 twin turbo engine into his 500 year old van, it'll do 0-60 in 4 seconds, cruise at 160mph, the lowered suspension means it'll corner faster than an F1 car, and it has never broken down ever…

I've still got a fierce hankering for a bongo with a basic camper fit, but you wouldn't want to take a family away in a little van I think, we used to camp a lot when I was younger and thinking about it our tent was about 3 times the size of the living area of most campers and still felt crowded. We'd have been fine in a van with a decent sized annex mind but then you're not far off camping.

TJ's spot on, at first at least, hiring one to get a taste at least makes the most sense.

Really nice vans are stupidly expensive, it'd take quite a few full-board holidays to pay for one. More basic ones seem to be brilliant for riding- like a van only better, basically. But not so much for kids.

If you've got £15K then you might be best looking at a 2nd hand C-class rather than one that's VW based, as there will be a lot more room in it.

We've had a C-class van, with bunks for the kids, for 5-years now and it's been great. We've been all over Scotland, including the western isles, and as far north as Norway and Sweden and as far south as Italy with it.

We did consider renting before buying however it was going to be at least £1000 for a couple of week so instead decided to put the cash for our own van.

We started off with a T25 westy but found it lacking in space (for 2 people with bikes let alone with kids!)

Our £15k budget went on this – We keep the bikes in a heated garage!!!!! Shower/toilet/blown heating – Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better…..

Nice. Looks like a similar rear bunk/garage layout to our one:

Mrs & Mrs Stoner travel light. Always have done and the Pompino trip is a good case in point from times BC*.

* Before Child

Once Stoner Jr turned up we decided to go for a T4 camper (bought from a fellow forumite. *waves @ Clink*) and the three of us have happily spent 2+ months at a time living in it:

However, Stoner Jr MkII is currently in production and Ive taken some time to think how that would effect our use of the van and am confident now that we 4 can happily continue to make the most of it but would need to stick to our travel light philosophy as well as change some of the ways we store stuff in the van. Other than that, I think it's very doable.

Not quite the same – We only have single bunks at the back but it does mean we are under 6m in length! Also the 'van has a dual floor so all muddy bike kit/'van kit is kept out of the living space. It means its proper toasty down to about whatever temp you like. No frozen tanks or anything.

We dont tend to travel light though, but we dont have to rely on sites when were in the alps. Best place to stop is the massive Aire in Digne le Bains at the foot of the great trails there!

Not quite the same – We only have single bunks at the back but it does mean we are under 6m in length!

Ours are only single bunks at the back as well, although they're quite big. The wide angle used in that shot elongates the van a bit as it's only 6.5m.

Sweet, looks like a double at the back. Cheaper on the boats then?

techsmechs – what campervan/motorhome is that you've got?

To give it the full title Hobby Alkoven 570 – Its based on a 2.8 Fiat Ducato with an ALKO chassis…. year 2000 model year.

T25 is better than a bay, bays look better but you have to rmember that they are now at least 30 years old. they are slow, handle badly, are cold, small and un reliable. T25's are marginally better, and diesels give better mpg. For teh money you are looking at you could get a mint T25 or a pretty good bay. Personally, If i ws with a young family (who may not tolerate the same problems and breakdowns that you might) I'd get a nice T4, or maybe something even bigger?

If you want style over substance, you can't fault a VW, but you can get more for less money from less "cool" manufactureres. We were concidering a toyota Hiace conversion?

Unless you have bottomless pockets and can do a good deal of mechanical work and preferably welding dont buy an old type 2 / bay window campervan.

I did and its spent more time parked broken down out side my house than being camped in and done more miles on the back of recovery trucks than ive driven it.

Thats after the 10k or so ive spent on it!

I still love it though just to clarify!

I love those old VW campervans, but don't have the time (or cash) for the continual repairs.

We've currently an unconverted Bongo (well a Ford Freda) which is superb – no rust, quiet and comfortable. We use an awning and for the four of us we find it fine.

Cue mr camper-van fan-club uk: about to tell us how he squeezed a subaru 2.5 twin turbo engine into his 500 year old van, it'll do 0-60 in 4 seconds, cruise at 160mph, the lowered suspension means it'll corner faster than an F1 car, and it has never broken down ever…

lol. My mate has got a Type 25 with a 2.8 Capri motor in the back. Overheated all the time since he had it and has basically been a bloody nightmare! (It was fun when it occasionally did work though!)

Bays are a total labour of love (and after 15 years of aircooled VWs even I gave up)

Type 25s are a better bet, but with your budget I'd probably steer away from VWs completely. There's much more out there for your money that doesn't have the VW roundel on the front.

🙂

My mate has a Subaru engine in his vee dub t25 and it always breaks down .We keep telling him he should have bought a Transit and chucked a mattress in the back

i hope i caused no offense? – i do like to see/hear old air cooled VW campers/vans.

they're probably a 'hobby' vehicle, a bit like mountain bikes i suppose…

(people laugh at you when you tell them how much it costs to keep them running)

hmm, convinced now they are a bad idea, don't have time with small kids for tinkering : ford estate and a massive tent sounds a better bet!

I have a '79 Baywindow which me & the Mrs use from April to November – it then goes to bed for the winter. It's very tidy condition & is an appreciating asset moneywise. It is a bit time consuming to keep running sweet, but you have to accept that with a 30+ year old bus. I would not have one if you could not do most of the tinkering yourself to be honest. There are still some very tidy T2's out there for sale, but there's an awful lot of trash also – so if you go for an oldie find someone who know's about them & take them along to see it before you buy. Don't expect to get places fast either, keeping speeds sensible (not much more than 55mph!) is the key to keeping them reliable – thrash it & it will break. Good fun though & you'll have lots of people come & talk to you about it.

Don't do it. I had a type 2 and it took all of my money plus some. You're much better off getting a tent. I could make a very long list of reasons but believe me tents are more flexible and there are lots of dodgy campervans out there waiting to bankrupt and depress you.

I've had T25's for almost 10 years now, £15k will get you just about the best thats out there (take a look at eastfalia.com ) but now we've got 2 kids the van is getting used as a dayvan much more than for camping in, they are just too small even with a huge drive away awning and having to pack most of it away to drive to the shops is a real hassle with young kids.
If you really want it for holidays I'd be looking at coachbuilts (ie proper motorhomes). We are probably going to get a caravan 😯 and tow it with the camper, should give the best of both worlds with a decent sized and kitted out base for sleeping and eating in and the convienience of a van for day trips out.

Rent a van first make sure you like it, I hired a T5 before getting a camper conversion, it's the best way to see if you like it. You can hire classics too so you'll be able to get a feel for what you want,

I would listen to the posters above on the costs involved in running the classic campers though.

If you're not sure, I'd agree that hiring a van is a good idea, but prepare to be hooked…

T25s and Bays have bags of character, but as other posters have said, they require a pretty hefty time commitment – if you want something reliable then you really need to get something newer. If you're budget is £15K, you can easily afford a nice T4 conversion – more space than a T25, easier to drive, really reliable. I wouldn't personally choose a Bongo, but they're also great vans and you would get a newer van for the money. Avoid Mercedes Vitos – good to drive but prone to rust and a bit flimsy IMO.

We have a 96 T4 Westfalia California pop-top (Left Hand Drive) which we bought 2 years ago for £11.5K – it's got bags of space, has been 100% reliable and is used as our second vehicle as well as holiday transport. It's a bit more difficult to get a deal now due to the strength of the euro, but scout the classifieds and am sure you'd find something in your price range.

One thing that you do need to be aware of is the cost of buying a van varies a lot through the year – buying now at the start of the season you will pay top dollar, whereas if you can wait to September / October time then you would get a much better deal….however some dealers also do buy-back deals so you could run the van over the summer and they then guarantee to buy it back for a set price at the end.

You could pick up a £3-5k 03ish plate commercial T4 and have it converted from anything between £1k and £15k depending on bling and function. Buying from commercial auction will probably give the shrewd buyer much more quality/low mileage for the money than say eBay.

Stoner – out of interest, what's your solution for child sleeping arrangements in your T4?

Our son is now 9 months old – when he was really little he would fit in a carry cot across the front seats. Too big for that now so either he or one of us will need to go "upstairs". There is no mischief he could get up to up there so I was thinking of getting one of those safety nets to go across the roof bed. What do you reckon?

SJ – from age 3months until 3 yrs Stoner jr slept on a dog bed in the back of the "ground floor". The rear behind the rock and roll bed folds flat but the seat can stay in the up position so we can cook and chat while he sleeps and then the two of us slept upstairs.

When Jr2 arrives we will put them both in the popup roof (with or without a mesh net – baby will be in a travel cot like the samsonite one so he doesnt roll around, Jr1 will be old enough to just be in his sleeping bag) OR get a cab hammock for baby and Jr1 will stay in the back a bit longer with the two of us upstairs. Will experiment this winter.

BTW a eberspacher diesel heater is an expensive add on, but with insulated window panels can turn the van into a genuine 4 season sleeper.

Hi – thanks for that. I did consider using the bit behind the back seat for baby, but I'm a bit on the large side and reckon it would be a bit cramped with both of us in the pop top. I reckon baby in the pop top is the way to go. With a safety net, he wouldn't be able to get into any trouble that he wouldn't be able to in his cot at home.

Unfortunately our Westy started out it's life in sunny Italy so doesn't have an eberspacher fitted… and when I got a quote it was, as you say blooming expensive to get one retrofitted. We generally stay in proper campsites, so just have a fan heater working off the hook up when it's cold.

Seriously, with any camper / caravan, think about how much you will use it, and how much it will cost you a year. When you account for road tax & insurance at a total of around £400 a year, plus fuel, maintenance & depreciation, it can be a surprisingly expensive way of taking a holiday.

ive just done the maths and I reckon it costs:

European limitless insurance £400
European breakdown cover £80
Service £200
MOT £50
depreciation varies but it's about £300-500 pa for me I think

We use the van for 50+ nights a year on average so that works out at £20 to £25 per night so far excluding camping fees, diesel and ferries etc (the same costs as if you car and tent)

that £20-25 premium over car and tent is definitely worth it for us with little children. We also obviously have the option of wild camping both in the UK and abroad. In the UK comfy overnights in the mountains or forests are convenient. On the continent it makes it easy to break up long drives, gives us space to look after the kids on driving days etc.

Best thing Ive ever bought IMO.

Van MPG is nowhere like car MPG. I'd be surprised if many campers can manage more than 25mpg.

Not saying it doesn't work out for you though. A lot of people seem to use them for a week or two a year.

Incidentally my 73bay has a 2.0 litre subaru engine in and does 25ish mpg, and will cruise at 70-80 on the motorway no trouble with a top speed of 105+ (i got scared as you run out of speedo at 90 and you have to guess but mate following clocked it as 105mpg)

It however as with many engine conversions is somewhat troublesome…

This is a small price to pay for giving boyracers a run for there money in a camper van. Well kids in 1.4l corsa's and similar anyway 🙂

my best mpg (65mph, french motorways, non-stop for 8 hrs) is 39mpg.

88bhp, 2.5l TDi.

Normal ragging comes in at around 29mpg.

and it's possible Ive over killed my costs incremental on a car & tent given a car and tent need breakdown cover and insurance too.

My van is a second car as well as a holiday thing so really the incremental costs of a T4 over, say a £10k diesel estate, are probably no more than a few hundred a year making the night premium as little as £5 maybe.

A bay or T25 will be quite a bit more in workshop costs though.

think the key thing on the costs is how much you will use it. 50 nights a year and it makes sense to have your own. 15 nights a year and then hire one.

bloody love vans.

had a t2, t25 now on a t4 transporter.

given a garage i'd have a t2 again tomorrow. it was my daily drive for 3 years. broke down a couple of times but only once i couldnt fix (didnt have a replacement clutch cable) nothing as bad as the t25-exploding engine on the m5.

i love t2's. they are a total hobby though they are not a buy and forget vehicle but you are running a classic car so you shouldnt expect modern reliability.

the t4 is good an done a good few trips including a razz around france and our honeymoon.

When my van is not used as a camper it's getting me around for rides and the like, so a per night cost isn't everything if you build it truly multi-purpose it can be a sleeper, a bike carrier, people carrier it's really practical and when we needed a new oven it was easy to pick that up too.

But it does need using or it's not worth the investment of course, if it's a few nights a year then hire one.

The mpg on mine isn't great compared to a frugal diesel car 😯