Then why do you care if there is a them or us?

Having studied American history more than I have British history, I am going to have to use language more associated with studies of their society, but I think it also applies here, and maybe is what Cameron is getting at.

One of the fundamental ideologies that people hoped would characterise American society whas the notion that America, as a whole, was a “melting pot” i.e. where people of different cultures and beliefs were all assimilated into one national identity.

This identity was not to be based on the idea that everyone had to believe the same things and live the same way, but was based on the idea that everyone had the freedom to believe and practice whatever they wanted to.

It was the fact that everyone was united behind the principle of freedom of expression and the freedom to live your way, and that your culture could contribute equally to society as a whole, that gave the nation it’s identity.

To use a cliched analogy: It’s a bit like totally different instruments coming together to form beautiful music.

However, what many think has happened it that what we have ended up with is not so much a “melting pot”, but more of a “salad bowl”, where different cultures mix alongside one another, but don’t really blend into a cohesive society; resulting in a society that is characterised by social tension. You have each culture vying with on another to be one the one that “contributes” the most to the make-up of the country.

Perhaps that is what Cameron is referring to, or something like that. I have to admit that I haven’t heard the whole speech so I have probably missed something.

#trailmonkey – Member

“Your “religion” or the society you live in is dominated by Christianity. There is “them” and “us” since time begins and will be forever because we human maggots think that way.”

But I have no religion, I was born and raised in England and I’m white anglo/irish, so where does that put me in the us/them/ours/theirs scheme of things.

If we have any pretensions to be a multicultural society then there is only room for we.

It does not matter if you have a religion or not or if you are purple, green or pink in colour as you are in a Christian dominated society, so your way of life is influenced by them.

It put you in your position i.e. feel there must be a “we” if a society needs to progress because you insist on identifying yourself as “them”.
🙄

chewkw – Member

“It does not matter if you have a religion or not or if you are purple, green or pink in colour as you are in a Christian dominated society, so your way of life is influenced by them.”

Are we really? The largest single group in the UK is the atheists.

yup christianity left the building a long time ago

Northwind – Member

chewkw – Member

“It does not matter if you have a religion or not or if you are purple, green or pink in colour as you are in a Christian dominated society, so your way of life is influenced by them.”

Are we really? The largest single group in the UK is the atheists.

But I bet long time ago that might not be the case.

kimbers – Member

yup christianity left the building a long time ago

But the siblings live on without knowing …

🙄

It seems like you think they have a point and that they were provoked into this ?Perhaps they even have some validity to attack the powers and structures that make the decisions. Blowing up buses,whatever the provocation or reasons,seens excessive.

I think you misinterpret my words.

In the last 10 years, Muslim communities in the UK have been under intense scrutiny, and felt increasingly alienated and hated. People have had their doors kicked in in the middle of the night, their children and families terrorised, bin dragged away to be interrogated, had their personal lives splashed all over the media, had to endure character assassination and downright lies told about them in the media, stopped and searched for no reason other than they happen to be brown, or followers of a particular religion. Mosques and community centres have bin raided, workers arrested and interrogated, computers and books confiscated, etc etc. Basically, an entire section of society treated as ‘Terror’ suspects. Granted, some individuals have rightly bin brought before Justice, and possibly lives saved, but the impact of such actions by the State, towards mainly British Citizens, has created a climate of fear and mistrust which is very largely unjustified and detrimental to harmonious relations. Irish people will tell you of very similar things happening during The Troubles. Some folk to this day still have a distrust of the Irish as an entire group, in the same way many in Britain have a distrust of Muslims, Asians, and even Brown people in general. I’ve bin abused in pubs and places by ignorant tossers who think it’s funny to call me a ‘terrorist’, Osama Bin Laden, etc etc. simply because of my appearance. Yeah, hilarious.

I see a lot more of the good in Muslim communities than some folk on here. I am no advocate or follower of Islam, and don’t believe it to be the right path for myself, but can recognise and appreciate the positive and peaceful nature of a religion which does after all stand for peace and fairness. As do most religions.

Murdering innocent people is not part of Islam. This is something I think too many people fail to realise. Those who seek to kill and maim, to further their own ’cause’, are no more ‘Muslim’ than the EDL or BNP, or those who bomb abortion clinics and target their workers are ‘Christian’.

But while a culture of persecution exists, you will get angry nutters who will use it as an excuse to attack that which they claim is their enemy.

The largest single group in the UK is the atheists

Not too sure about that. A quick Google reveals a large Christian majority. And I’d reckon there’s quite a number of agnostics, as distinct from atheists.

but the siblings live on without knowing?

Depends who you ask and how you ask. British Social Attitudes Survey said almost 50% of people have no religion. The Census figures say 70% of the UK is christian, though that’s way out of line with most other surveys- other surveys consistently find around 40% of the population say there is no god.

However when you start to ask about practicing your religion- do you pray? Do you go to church? Do you observe all the central tenets? That’s when the argument that this is a christian country goes completely tits up. Less than 1 in 10 of the population can be identified as practicing christians. Everything else is a vote for meh.

chewkw – Member

“But I bet long time ago that might not be the case.”

Of course. So what? A long time ago the dinosaurs were the majority but I don’t think I want to live my life by their rules.

Elfinsafety,

The others demand less in recognition from the society and impose less on them too. Simply they do not challenge the society they live in unlike Islam that try to dominate or to change others. They do. Fact.

kimbers – Member

but the siblings live on without knowing?

I mean children from Christian parents or ancestors …

chewkw – Member

“The others demand less in recognition from the society and impose less on them too. Simply they do not challenge the society they live in unlike Islam that try to dominate or to change others.”

Ah yes- the other night you said something along these lines about sharia law and how uk law should be absolute, but didn’t answer me when I asked how you feel about the beth din. Any chance of an answer now?

Northwind – Member

“But I bet long time ago that might not be the case.”

Of course. So what? A long time ago the dinosaurs were the majority but I don’t think I want to live my life by their rules.

You don’t have to live by their rules but when you try to change that you will also impose your views on others who are weaker than you, so what do you do then?

🙄

I don’t even know what that’s supposed to mean. I should live by the dinosaur code?

Northwind – Member

Ah yes- the other night you said something along these lines about sharia law and how uk law should be absolute, but didn’t answer me when I asked how you feel about the beth din. Any chance of an answer now?

Nope. I am not referring to sharia law but if sharia law is imposed on the people you are seeing the beginning of an end a way of life.

Nope. You can’t compare to beth din either because they impose their views on themselves and do not cause trouble to others here (this country).

Northwind – Member

I don’t even know what that’s supposed to mean. I should live by the dinosaur code?

Nope. You don’t have to but also do not impose.

🙄

Basically, an entire section of society treated as ‘Terror’ suspects

you are over egging the pudding a touch there. We do not routinely raid mosques – just the ones that preach a certain brand of Islam.

Those who seek to kill and maim, to further their own ’cause’, are no more ‘Muslim’ than the EDL or BNP, or those who bomb abortion clinics and target their workers are ‘Christian’

Whilst I dont disagree with you I think you will find that the suicide bombers are indeed devout Muslims and are following their faith in doing these acts as indeed are the Christians. You cannot say their faith is not a factor in their crime; it is the main [it may actually be the sole] factor.
The salad bowl is a good anology of what we have. Sadly some of the ingreideints ,from all demographic,s are rancid.
I am sure the EDL and the BNP also feel they are demonised by the state/media and unfairly targetted as well and have been raided and stopped on the streets etc. Are we unfairly targetting white working class short haired tatooed fat balding low intelligence males now as well? Is it just because of the way they look?

elfinsafety – that’s hilarious

I’ve just replaced the words ‘Muslim community’ with ‘Irish community’ and it all reads the same ‘cept 10 years later.

Stop complaining its someone else’s turn……….

chewkw – Member
“Nope. I am not referring to sharia law but if sharia law is imposed on the people you are seeing the beginning of an end a way of life.”

So it’s just as well that there’s absolutely no chance of that happening really.

We do not routinely raid mosques – just the ones that preach a certain brand of Islam.

Bollocks. Come down here, and I’ll introduce to to Imams and staff at mosques what have been raided round here. Do you think every raid and search makes the papers? There’s loads going on that hardly anyone gets to know about. Do you have any idea about the number of raids and searches, compared to the actual number of convictions? Incredibly disproportionate.

I am sure the EDL and the BNP also feel they are demonised by the state/media and unfairly targetted as well and have been raided and stopped on the streets etc. Are we unfairly targetting white working class short haired tatooed fat balding low intelligence males now as well? Is it just because of the way they look?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Copeland

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8462205.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/6923933.stm

Funny; I don’t see everyone demonising White British people as an entire group, because a tiny minority are dangerous lunatics…

Whilst I dont disagree with you I think you will find that the suicide bombers are indeed devout Muslims and are following their faith in doing these acts as indeed are the Christians.

They’re deluded nutters using religion as something to hide behind. Islam expressly forbids the killing of innocent people, especially women, children and the frail and elderly. So, these scum are not acting in the name of Islam, whatever they may claim.

I notice the gay policemen and their surrogate “son” are keeping quiet about this.

i really dont think anyone in the uk is persecuted ‘properly’. it wouldnt be politcally correct.

I don’t see everyone demonising White British people as an entire group, because a tiny minority are dangerous lunatics…

So no Muslim group demonises all western decadence then and the racist infidel? denmark cartoons for example [ though I think they have a point there tbh re the offence caused] – thought “our ” behaviour was one of the causes? I do see a lot of white people demonising these racist white groups that demonise all muslims [including the PM in his speech] and I do see lots of Muslims demonising the Islamic extremists as well.I think the majority on each side do demonise the fringe nutters within their group tbh.

So, these scum are not acting in the name of Islam

for that to be true we would need to conclude that if they were not Muslims they would still have committed the acts. I doubt that very much. Are they reflective of islam NO are they good Muslims ?No Are they following the teachings of the prophet NO etc
I do not doubt for a second that many Muslims face poor treatement and are seen to be our enemy in some sort of Orwellian 1984 scenario where we need to be scared of something now communism has gone. That aside there are [tiny minority] some within the community who we should be rather concerned about.
We should tackle noth issues equally

salam alaikum