Well done Duckman, your scottish experience is also how i see schools in england, although i dont run a rugby team i do plenty of other after school stuff. Most people have no idea.

So it would be nice if history students picked up the Daily Telegraph (OP) recognising where it might be biased (clue in the headline) but then dig behind this to see if there is an alternative message or use of the material. IMO there was in this case, but this is not an opinion that is widely shared obviously!

It’s not about bias in the Telegraph article/headline – I base my view on direct quotes of what Cameron actually said. He quite clearly said that the main problem was a lack of competitive ethos and teachers not wanting to join in.

Again, I’d like to know what the evidence is for this – otherwise it just looks like he’s using his own personal prejudice (which you seem to agree with) to inform policy.

I do think that there is more of a “let’s do it ” ethos, or perhaps more of the staff step up.

Probably easier to have a ‘let’s do it’ ethos when you have more resources/facilities, and the staff are better paid.

Julian, good questions and avoided because I did genuinely go to fit in swim training before the 200m final.

…yet you managed to fit in replying four or five times to other bits over yesteday evening whilst I chipped away, including when TJ picked up on it (and didn’t quite make it party political again!) How peculiar for you to have nevertheless managed all those other posts whilst training. 😕

Reticence is due to involvement in “related project” that is far too early to discuss.

What do those projects have to do with the experience and outlook that your own education and teaching career might bring to your opinions? A couple more teachers seem to have managed to back their comments up with their backgrounds without making it obvious to anyone who they are or where they work. What are the chances of anyone that knows you in the real world/professionally who is reading this not having worked out who you are already suddenly realising it’s you?

If I hadn’t seen you ‘chase’ the likes of TJ and JY with multiple posts/questions for smallish points on other politix/economix threads, I probably would have gioven up as you really seem rather evasive, but if it seems to be OK for you to do so to others, then I am sure you won’t mind me continuing to press for the details.

no money means you often dont participate

No rich parents/affluent schools mean you never do rowing, horse riding stuff or sailing so who knows what talents we are missing out on

I would say that no moneys means that often you choose not to participate.

I have been lucky enough to know a number of athletes from different sports who have risen to international competition including some of the sports mentioned in this thread. The common denominator is pure desire to rise to the top and making huge sacrifices to do it. Many of them have entered the sports at grass root level by begging/borrowing the resources they need to achieve their dreams (including bikes, horses etc).

The crucial factor in their success is desire to achieve not financial capability. The commitment and effort put in to succeed is amazing.

Some of the opinions on this thread about success in certain sports being out of reach of normal people are not indicative of my real experience of these sports and the people that have risen to national and international level.

No rich parents/affluent schools mean you never do rowing

Yet again, I’ll point out the fallacy here. People who row don’t usually own the boats. Clubs own them and rowing has changed massively in the last 20 years or so in terms of availability to people who aren’t rich or even just middle class.

eg Liverpool, chosen as an area with plenty of deprivation.

Liverpool Victoria rowing club: J16/unwaged: £112 (£11.20 per month for 10 months)

I’d be interested to know how that compares with the local football kids’ clubs

Yet again, I’ll point out the fallacy here.

Yes, I’m sure going to Eton which has an olympic rowing lake doesn’t offer any advantage.

my real experience of these sports and the people that have risen to national and international level.

So why the disparity in elite sportspeople from private schools then? Or are you just arguing that rich people are better?

Yes, I’m sure going to Eton which has an olympic rowing lake doesn’t offer any advantage.

Of course it will early on but if you look rather than sticking to stereotype, plenty of internationals started rowing after school or started at clubs rather than the stereotypical posh schools. Eton always provided lots of good rowers even before Dorney was in place and they only trained on a pretty average stretch of water.

(not to mention that Eton are pretty free with use of the lake and as it goes, the lake itself isn’t the benefit as it’s not actually great water for training on. The benefit in eton is lots of boats so lots of kids try rowing and excellent coaches to get the best of those that do. That exists in other places where there isn’t so much money though it clearly will be more hit and miss. Same as most sports basically.

The whole notion of school sport needs a massive overhaul.

The vast majority of schools are stuck in the past with a very limited number of sports on offer and very little pupil choice. As a result of this pupils are disengaged

Most schools I know offer a fairly traditional range of team and individual sports, the only way pupils get something different is if they do it themselves or if there is an enthusiastic teacher who is willing to volunteer to run other activities.

There are plenty of different models to deliver this but as usual the problem comes down to money. There just isn’t any to pay for external providers.

I do think that there is more of a “let’s do it ” ethos, or perhaps more of the staff step up.
Probably easier to have a ‘let’s do it’ ethos when you have more resources/facilities, and the staff are better paid.

The ethos is probably because this type of school wasn’t so badly affected by the 80’s strikes so the thinking persisted. I’m unaware of a pitch being affected by money. We dont have a pool or a rowing lake, yes we do have a sailing activity but the boats are leased from a club. The kids do at least twice as much sport as in the state sector but to allow that to happen the school day is longer. 0830 until 1700 and coaches don’t get paid extra to do it.

The school doesn’t see these activities as extra but co-curricular slightly different mindset.

Eton’s not the only rowing place though, is it? Fairly sure I’ve seen people doing it elsewhere.

When i was at school we sorted out our own football games without the need for a teacher. We formed a team and entered competitions too. I also went to thai boxing classes in my evenings. I didn’t need or want any teachers involvement. Later on I joined the army and was lucky to continue doing athletics, football, rugby and other sports to a decent level. I got offered pro trials when I left.

There are other ways if you want to take some responsibility for yourself rather than waiting for the state to sort you out.

There are other ways if you want to take some responsibility for yourself rather than waiting for the state to sort you out.

Careful now, some round here dont like that kind of thinking….i sometimes get the feeling there are plenty on here who want income tax raised to about 75% across the board and for the state to arrange, organise and supply everything!

I don’t see why we bother educating children at all, why not just let those with a bit of personal responsibility educate themselves? And parenting, bloody waste of time, kids should look after themselves. I mean what could possibly go wrong.

Honestly the problem is many who have had the opportunities seem to think its all down to their own hard work and don’t respect those opportunities and the work done by others in enabling their access to opportunity.
Thankfully most of our gold winning athletes seem a little more realistic and humble in recognising their path to success.

MSP to a certain extent I agree with you. Three of this years leavers are schoolboy internationals some of which is down to the opportunities they’ve had in coaching and time but beyond 1st XV level they’ve spent a huge amount of effort to get where they are.

But we do have a future olympian and current European champion as well as several British champs (in their age groups) and none of the sports they take part in are run by or through the school.

Chris Hoy was independt school educated but they did not have a cycling activity. Does hcome under the “they get more opportunities” banner?

Later on I joined the army and was lucky to continue doing athletics, football, rugby and other sports to a decent level. I got offered pro trials when I left.

There are other ways if you want to take some responsibility for yourself rather than waiting for the state to sort you out.

So you proved that you could take responsibility for yourself without involvement of the state by joining the army ?

Chris Hoy was independt school educated but they did not have a cycling activity. Does hcome under the “they get more opportunities” banner?

Unless he built his own velodrome, he must have had access to facilities at some point, so yes he has had opportunities, access to coaching and equipment etc. that he hasn’t financed all before he became successful.

So you proved that you could take responsibility for yourself without involvement of the state by joining the army ?

Yes I did. Everyone I knew back then was joining the dole queue for state handouts. I made something of myself, got what I wanted out of it and left after the period I signed up for.

That question probably sounded clever in your head.

Cameron blames teachers for decline in school sport

never mind that rubbish.

i blame school sports for the decline in sports.

for ‘sports’ to become a part of your life, you have to enjoy it, and nothing sucks the joy out of an activity better than forced participation. it’s even more effective if you have no natural talent for the activity in question, and it’s raining, and it’s February, and the only thing that’ll take the edge off the hypothermia is the vicious dead-legging you’ll receive from the teachers tame thugs as encouragement to try harder on Thursday.

Yes I did. Everyone I knew back then was joining the dole queue for state handouts. I made something of myself, got what I wanted out of it and left after the period I signed up for.

That question probably sounded clever in your head.

Obvious more than clever.

My personal experience of the military is that the state does everything for you.

Don’t be silly ernie, they are just a loose association of independent minded adults, it has no structure or state backing to speak of.

Obvious more than clever.

My personal experience of the military is that the state does everything for you.

Really?

fitness – pretty sure that was my effort
food and board – paid out of wages at source
kit – bought all my own as issued stuff was gash
training courses – had to be fought for tooth and nail to get any
resettlement – I got none at all

My experience of the military (infantry) is that you put a LOT more in than you ever get back out and the MOD can’t be relied on to provide anything.

So why the disparity in elite sportspeople from private schools then? Or are you just arguing that rich people are better?

What a strange thing to ask me following my whole post regarding normal people achieving amazing results through desire and hard work.

I blame the decline on parents who out sourcing their responsibility for everything then blame the system if their children aren’t rounded people.

Want children to take up sports? Hold up the mirror and ask what are you doing? Lead by example.

gwj72 is a perfect example of my point.

many who have had the opportunities seem to think its all down to their own hard work and don’t respect those opportunities and the work done by others in enabling their access to opportunity.

I blame the decline on parents who out sourcing their responsibility for everything then blame the system if their children aren’t rounded people.

I would so much like to agree with you on this one, but I feel it might just be a little to true for some therefore rendering it an unpopular opinion making anyone who agrees with you argumentative. 😆

Dead on there Pawsy.

I’ve got mates who find it more convenient to indulge in a bit of xbox with their kids rather than going out for a kick about or a bike ride. They will probably be blaming the school when they’re a bit older and obese.

MSP – that must be 3 posts trying to get a rise out of me. You’re going to have to try harder than that flower 🙂

Trying to get a rise? just pointing out the contradictions and fantasies in your posts. If you don’t think the army is a state organisation, then everything must be going straight over your head.

then everything must be going straight over your head.

Incoming & US rounds, hopefully

and now cameron has turned his sights on indian dance

tbh 2 hrs of dance class is still good exercise in my book!

on the whole hes talking out of his bum/face though

”The trouble we have had with targets up to now, which was two hours a week, is that a lot of schools were meeting that by doing things like Indian dance or whatever, that you and I probably wouldn’t think of as sport so there’s a danger of thinking all you need is money and a target.

really a lot of schools were infact teaching indian dance? is he trying to look bigoted and stupid or has he been on the pims early today

As mentioned by others, my school PE lessons were: if you’re good at football, you’re ok. If not, forget it, you’re a dweeb.

I was pretty good at some track and field events but only remember doing them maybe once a year.

It’s ironic that the one sport that was promoted is the one the UK is pretty crap at (at least at an international level).

It strikes me as a mistake to blame any one thing.

Humans as (reasonably) social creatures are influenced by there surrounds. Parents will partly be to blame for playing xbox rather than playing footy with there kids. Schools are partly to blame for failing to get kids to engage. Policy makers are to blame for bad policy. The Daily Mail will be partly to blame for scaring parents into not letting kids out for fear of what may happen. No doubt there are many other influences as well.

Each element in the equation will have an effect on the overall culture. In a similar way that the best way to manage fitness and body weight is to change your lifestyle first, the best way to stop our children turning in lazy chubsters is to change the culture in which they live.

I know TJ got banned for his intervention here, but he raised a point which at least made me go and look for info – the allegation of an state subsidy of private schools.

It looks like City of Edinburgh spends just under £5500 per child per year. 25% of the city’s population goes to private school. If the state had to school that 25%, it would add c. £100M to the city’s education budget requirements. Finding a couple of sources which suggest £100M is the nationwide benefit of private schools charitable status leads me to conclude the state gets a good deal from private schools as they save the state more than they cost.

Private fees here seem to be about twice the state spend per kid, so not really a surpise there’s a gulf in the facilities.

I don’t know that it is the state’s / school’s role to do anything more than show kids what opportunities there are. Too many sports to cover properly so just getting kids active and pointing them at clubs seems to me the best option for the state.

Pawsy_Bear – Member
I blame the decline on parents who out sourcing their responsibility for everything then blame the system if their children aren’t rounded people.
Want children to take up sports? Hold up the mirror and ask what are you doing? Lead by example.

Gold medal for Pawsy! 🙂