but we didn't have anywhere near the level of infringement of civil liberties that we do now.
But if we did, would it have saved lives?
Chat Forum
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Cameron as PM
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Posted 2 years ago #
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For anyone to turn round & say that Left wing government is more oppressive than a Right wing government & visa-versa is smoking opium.
Posted 2 years ago # -
But if we did, would it have saved lives?
I doubt it, they tried internment, found out that it didn't work, and possibly even increased terrorism, so they stopped it.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Tron - didn't the police ask for these anti-terrorism powers to allow them to do their jobs?
Posted 2 years ago # -
molgrips - if you want a police state, a good way to do that would be to give the police any powers they ask for.
Their job would be loads easier for example if they didn't need evidence, or could beat confessions out of suspects, etc.
Posted 2 years ago # -
To be fair, I think it was the security services (MI5,6 etc) who campaigned for these laws. The thing is, we'll never know if they're working or not.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I'm not left or right, I'm an anarchist. That's why I usually vote Liberal. BTW.
Camaroon and Cleggy have impressed me more since the election than at any time previously.
Posted 2 years ago # -
tron - Member
I was more bothered when a left wing government had them. Most of the world's major internal surveillance systems have been the product of left wing systems - the Stasi, the NKVD etc. The left wing is inherently more interested in controlling and monitoring citizens in my book.
non of these are left wing - all are totalitarain - not the same thing at all. totalitarian states with communist rehtoric does not make them left wing -
Posted 2 years ago # -
well last time the tories were in things werent great in that respect,
i certainly get the impression that the racist thugs of the 80s are no longer dominant in the force
would the stephen lawrence debacle have happened under nulabour?
probably noobviously the demenezes family would argue otherwise-
could that have happened under the tories,
probably yesimho
Posted 2 years ago # -
didn't the police ask for these anti-terrorism powers to allow them to do their jobs?
They did, but the Police have become increasingly political under Labour.
And the fact is, the Police will always ask for more powers in order to do their jobs - I'm sure detection rates would go through the roof if people were allowed to fall down the stairs, but they're not, and for good reasons.
I simply do not believe the terror threat exists at the level the government claims - events like the Mumbai attack have shown how much havoc a few well organised people can create, but they don't seem to be happening here. The vast majority of bombers we've seen here haven't even got the basic chemistry right.
Posted 2 years ago # -
i certainly get the impression that the racist thugs of the 80s are no longer dominant in the force
I'm of the impression that proper, full blown racists are simply far, far less common than they were 10 or 15 years ago, let along 25 years ago. Near enough everybody nowadays knows a few people of a different ethnicity, which makes being racist rather difficult.
Posted 2 years ago # -
TandemJeremy - Member
non of these are left wing - all are totalitarain - not the same thing at all. totalitarian states with communist rehtoric does not make them left wing -Hahahahaha - talk about disowning the past!
So TJ I take it that on that basis you're happy for me to identify the BNP as a totalitarian party with socialist rhetoric rather than right wing?
Posted 2 years ago # -
true tron but i see what the daily wail readers call political correctness gone mad under nulabour as being a very good thing driving out the racists an bigots
Posted 2 years ago # -
No - the BNP are totalitarian with right wing rhetoric - as its a nazi party.
You get totalitarian parties that use right wing and left wing rhetoric. However no matter the rhetoric they remain totalitarian not capitalist or socialist
Its not about disowning the past - its about understanding what the politics are - the "communist" stares especially the puppet states where never socialist - they were totalitarian - a socialist government cannot be totalitarian
Posted 2 years ago # -
We keep hearing how bad Labour were for the economy: Does no one remember the Boom and Bust days of the early 90's? I certainly remember my mortgage rate going up from 7 to 13 percent; it just about finished ME off!
I think the media have a lot to answer for: The need to drive new stories constantly in this 24 hour news world with a focus the whole time on, apparently, just how crap politicians are at everything. The whole expenses scandal (with a few notable exceptions) was just a media witch hunt IMO; European countries were very bemeused; they couldn't imagaine politicians being as UN-corrupt as our.
The media assasinated Neil Kinnock and Micheal Foot; is it any suprise "Media-proof" New Labour was dreamed up. The biggest problem for them was that with all the spin people just didn't believe them when they DID get things right and really DID make real improvements to peoples lives. The funding for these things should have come from increased taxes however, and not by raiding the BofE reserves, but to do so would have been electoral suicide.Posted 2 years ago # -
I'm pretty sure they're all as bad as each other. Cameron, Brown and Clegg are all politicians aka liars and power hungary etc.
Posted 2 years ago # -
No - the BNP are totalitarian with right wing rhetoric - as its a nazi party.
See, the clues in the title - national socialist!
If you have a look at the BNP's policies they're as far away from "right wing" as you can get - restriction of free trade, state ownership of utilities and production.
Its not just me thinks so - political compass is onside
http://www.politicalcompass.org/ukparties2010
Once you accept that left and right are merely measures of economic position, the extreme right refers to extremely liberal economics that may be practised by social authoritarians or social libertarians.
Similarly, the extreme left identifies a strong degree of state economic control, which may also be accompanied by liberal or authoritarian social policies. It's muddled thinking to simply describe the likes of the British National Party as "extreme right". The truth is that on issues like health, transport, housing, protectionism and globalisation, their economics are left of Labour, let alone the Conservatives. It's in areas like police power, military power, school discipline, law and order, race and nationalism that the BNP's real extremism - as authoritarians - is clear. It's easy to see how the term national socialism came into being. The uncomfortable reality is that much of their support comes from former Labour voters.
a socialist government cannot be totalitarian
Hahahahaha! China for example!
Posted 2 years ago # -
molgrips - if you want a police state
We're patently not a police state, and even hinting at it is a gross insult to those who have truly lived under oppression.
Some people don't they're born.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Politicians all liars? If you get asked by the media to resign everytime THEY said you were not doing the things THEY thought were right and everytime you tried to make improvements THEY would only focus on possible negative fall-out from these improvements then wouldn't YOU start being a bit evassive about things?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Cable's got a Phd in Economics, and was chief economist at Shell. I'd hardly call that no experience at all.
Ah I see, you were talking about his experience with Shell - fair enough. I assumed that as you said "second in command" to the Chancellor, you meant at number 11, or in cabinet, or even maybe, in government.
Well I've got experience with riding a single speed bike - does that count ?
Or are you saying that the tricky job of trying to get an oil company to actually show a profit, is the same "experience" as running the world's 5th largest economy and dealing with recession, 2 million unemployed, inflation, debt, allocating funds to education, health, housing, defence, trade agreements, the EU, IMF, etc, etc,
Are confusing "qualifications" with "experience" ?Vince Cable has no experience. Ken Clark does.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Game on!
Dont let the door hit you on the arse on your way out!
Posted 2 years ago # -
Lol
Nice speech Gordon, slightly rushed though
Posted 2 years ago # -
I just hope the incoming lot will do as much for the funding MTB trails as the outgoing lot! They didn't last time they were in
Posted 2 years ago # -
Game on!
Indeed. Now we'll see how really shit the Tories are after all!
Posted 2 years ago # -
Very dignified.
Looks like Gordon's on the way to see the Queen.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Simple and symbolic. The British way. [or some such bull]
Posted 2 years ago # -
He's already in there
Posted 2 years ago # -
If the rumours of the deal are true, is anybody else concerned about the new Prime Minister's negotiating skills?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Better than Eastenders!
Posted 2 years ago # -
Is it too late to get a fixed rate mortguage? For how many years though?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Dear me, Cameron's cheesy waffle on the BBC live feed already pissing me off and he's only been in for an hour.
Time to stop watching news for a while I think. Don't want my daughter to pick up too many swear words.
Posted 2 years ago # -
a socialist government cannot be totalitarian
Hahahahaha! China for example!
Communism and socialism are not the same thing though! They may be born out of the same theories but they are not interchangeable
China is (supposedly) communist as it has centralised political control....however it also allows capitalist theories when it suits them (to make make money) - worst of both worlds - no freedoms, but no equality at the same time.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Tron. 'The IRA were rather more successful at killing people than islamic extremists appear to be in the UK, but we didn't have anywhere near the level of infringement of civil liberties that we do now.'
Be careful with this as it could be argued that Islamic Extremists are not as 'successful' BECAUSE we have more infringement of civil liberties now.
Posted 2 years ago # -
This will probably get me ejected from STW but I am quite excited about the new government. The Tories have some sensible ideas for the economy but the Lib Dems will temper their elitist arrogance. Interesting times.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I have to admit one of the main reasons I registered was just to say how much Molgrips posts in this thread have made me chuckle.
Can we poke fun at the slimey Mekon like Hague as well now? He's even worse, I imagine him like golum whispering in his ear, ooooh David my preccccious lolol
With the risk of being burned in my second post on here - I do think given the state of the results that the Lib/Tory pact is the better option than flogging a dead horse that is labour in its current state. But then I have always thought coming up to the election Brown would be hung out to dry by his party and pre empted someone like Milliband wanting in. So no great surprise how things have panned out.
All I am hoping, and its a big hope (sat right next to winning the rollover tonight) is that everything that has been force fed us over the last few weeks, about the national interest and the motivational speech last night actually comes to fruitition. I cant help but think though it sounds partially like a Company director telling his workforce to pull together, work harder - but expect no bonus - just do it for the love of the job. Fair point but that doesnt pay bills or cover the ever expanding costs of fuel duty... anyway we shall see.
Posted 2 years ago #
Topic Closed
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