Hi all,

Looking at starting a small project with some LBSs to help kids with bicycle maintenance and mechanics. The idea is help children with bicycle knowledge and get them involved with hands on skills and parent bonding.

We’d really appreciate it if you could answer the 10 Q’s on SurveyMonkey, HERE (Or copy & paste; https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/XRSQZ2P).
It shouldn’t take more than a couple minutes, but the feedback would be hugely valuable to us.

Any other comments and feedback is also appreciated.

Done.

Done.

Done.

Done 🙂 Although I couldn’t fill in the ‘how long’ bit properly as I’m on about 6 months at the moment

Done. Although the copy paste link wasn’t working.

Thanks, really appreciate it!

It’s not that hard….

crank length, chainstay length, kid weight tuned suspension and mineral oil brakes (if you believe as I do that kids should maintain their own bikes with help)

OK, done. Minor point – why wait til they are 4? Mine showed an interest in aesthetics before that. Great idea about the bonding.

Done.

My pet hate is grip shifters – I think trigger shifters should be there from day one.

Done

And as above ^^^^ from Steve

Done – forgot about the bastard grip shifters. Little fingers much prefer trigger shift.

My lad has never said it to me, but has told my mum how much he enjoyed his evenings tinkering in the garage while we put my old bits on an Inbred frame for him.

Big thanks for all the responses!
It’s already painting a positive picture, and reinforces most of our thoughts.

Yes, agree with the grip shifter issue. My boy can move it into a harder gear easily but cannot get back into first. He tried the trigger on my bikes and has no problem. Fortunately I have some 9sp kit that I will upgrade him to.
It would also be lovely to be able to save weight by having shorter crank arme available for external BB’s rather than the dead weight square taper and cheap cranks.

But, done.

It does appear that there is a lack of components for the children’s demographic (across the ages), mainly cranks.
The answers are fairly broad now which is a spanner in the works.

Big thanks for all the responses!
It’s already painting a positive picture, and reinforces most of our thoughts.

Yep, let me add grip shifter’s to the what’s wrong!

What I really liked was your suggestion that kids should be interested/active in the maintenance and tinkering….

Not long ago on another forum I was wondering what age parents let kids play with DOT fluid. Now my 7yr old is not capable of bleeding brakes alone… or I’d certainly check before letting him ride.(I check his QR and sometimes it’s a good job) … but he is more than capable of learning and trying….

“Trying” involves brake fluid getting everywhere…. so I’d prefer to chuck some pads (if I hadn’t removed them) than have a kid with DOT fluid in their eyes and over skin!

When we changed his headset bearings for example he was involved…. (and actually helpful) He managed to support the forks and saved me removing the brakes etc. .. learned why we don’t spray water into the headset …

Anyway, maintenance aside there would seem little point trying to produce the same general rubbish as the “big name” kids bikes.

What prevents me getting a decent trail bike at the moment is all the trouble parents seem to have with getting suspension dialled in.

I wouldn’t really want to buy a transition complete bike as the forks are sector silver and many parents then seem to have to sort out the rear shock as well…. that leaves me finding shocks and forks then getting them tuned…. (I’ll pass on colour/decals … that is something might be discussed if I had a choice)

To me the most attractive package is a kit bike with frame, forks and rear shock….and preferably cranks…

After that I think the Bird model works really well… where you can basically choose a groupset… but I’d be as happy just sourcing the groupset (as there no way small UK manufacturers can compete with CRC etc.)

I suppose you already know but Trailcraft are doing a FS this year…
I see a surprising number of their HT’s at kids XC races along with Hope Academy bikes.

Good points above – I forgot to add gripshift to my moans box. Mine are on shimano trigger shift and much prefer it. Especially in muddy weather when gripshift becomes unusable.

It does appear that there is a lack of components for the children’s demographic (across the ages), mainly cranks.
The answers are fairly broad now which is a spanner in the works.

Cranks wise I think you’d need to BUY them…. I personally have no problem cut and trap but liability wise you’d need to buy ….

SJS up in Scotland have square taper cranks ….
Trailcraft have moved over to getting their own HT II fabricated but they went for what looks like a SRAM direct mount … this is a good move if you want sub 30T rings but I don’t think its actually needed now we have 40-42T (avoiding 50T monsters due to ground clearance on smaller wheels)

Isla have sourced Titanium/Carbon Square Taper BB’s on their Pro Range

Hope have said (in an email) they are looking at selling their 140’s…. that they presently ONLY put on Academy bikes.

So non of that is impossible.

Not putting on gripshift is a no-brainer… though i reckon you’d sell as many without groupset anyway. There are loads of people don’t buy Isla [list]because [/list]they insist on gripshift.

Great comments above (and also on the questionnaire comments), thanks!
We’re thinking of a hybrid of current ideas and Steve’s idea.
Sorry for being a bit vague with our plans.

We’d certainly be providing all components and bearings available as replacement parts too.

Up to 65 questionnaire responses, again- thank you 😀 !

Reoccurring theme is weight. Something I completely agree with.
I’ve seen countless children and adults being completely put off cycling by weight, which is a real shame.

The balance then is the age old; Cost, weight, price..

Done

Grip shifts for kids could be alright if it wasn’t for the fact that the higher force required to move down the gears (7-1) rather than the opposite way around. Just when kiddy-winky needs the easiest possible gear, they find themselves struggling with the force required to pull the cable tight. If there was a derailleur which worked in the opposite direction to make loosening the cable bring the easier gears into play I think grip shifting would work OK.

larkim – Member
Grip shifts for kids could be alright if it wasn’t for the fact that the higher force required to move down the gears (7-1) rather than the opposite way around. Just when kiddy-winky needs the easiest possible gear, they find themselves struggling with the force required to pull the cable tight. If there was a derailleur which worked in the opposite direction to make loosening the cable bring the easier gears into play I think grip shifting would work OK.

Wait – you’re advocating gripshoft AND rapid rise?

*grabs pitchfork*

cokie – Member
Up to 65 questionnaire responses, again- thank you !

Reoccurring theme is weight. Something I completely agree with.
I’ve seen countless children and adults being completely put off cycling by weight, which is a real shame.

The balance then is the age old; Cost, weight, price..

Neightbour’s kid stopped by yesterday with hsi new “full suspension” bike

Elastomer forks (which he couldn’t compress with his full weight), steel coil on the back. Weighed THIRTY SIX pounds, felt much heavie to pick up

Neightbour’s kid stopped by yesterday with hsi new “full suspension” bike

Elastomer forks (which he couldn’t compress with his full weight), steel coil on the back. Weighed THIRTY SIX pounds, felt much heavie to pick up 😯 🙁 That’s sad, eh. At least he’s happy with it for now.. Would help if Halfords and the like don’t keep selling these FS BSOs.

cokie – Member

That’s sad, eh. At least he’s happy with it for now.. Would help if Halfords and the like don’t keep selling these FS BSOs.

Yeah – he’s happy with it as a thing, I guiess – it’s got the shiny bits and the big motorbikey spring and all that. But I doubt it gives him a love of cycling if it’s a massive effort to push the thing up the road.

Done

Yeah – he’s happy with it as a thing, I guiess

…..until you ripped the shit out of it and even weighed it, which must have made him feel great…..

Wait – you’re advocating gripshift AND rapid rise?

*grabs pitchfork*

Just for kids, you understand.

ads678 – Member

…..until you ripped the shit out of it and even weighed it, which must have made him feel great…..

I didn’t do any of that while he was watching, I’m not a monster. I told him it was really cool.

Add me to the gripshift whinge list.

I nipped into Halfords yesterday for a chain and the boy had a potter round the shop on one of these monstrosities I couldn’t believe how heavy it was.

Edit: just noticed they say it’s 21kgs! It didn’t feel that heavy but it can’t have been far off.

cokie

I reckon you have a initial fairly specialised market…. but one where people will pay for more. I was talking to a Dad at a race a few weeks ago and I’d remarked on his kids Lil shredder… he said “that meant he’d not be getting a new car for another few years”.

There is a small but solid niche in the UK market as noone here makes decent kids trail bikes. I’m most amazed that Hope are only doing HT’s in their Academy bikes…

Isla are selling their Pro bikes… but no trail bikes…. so realistically the only options are import a Lil Shredder .. wait to see if Trailcraft can get the kids FS dialled (which I’ve yet to see)…. or compromise on something like a Transition or something can’t be pedalled like a Kona.

I’d get a transition frame (if they ever release this years) but I’d still need to find working suspension/forks … and by that time he’d probably be in a XS adult frame…. 🙁

I can add or not add components … but the forks and shock are the huge unknowns …. quite honestly I wonder if a Lil Shredder might actually be cheaper than setting out down the shock/fork tuning route. If you can solve that (and Lil Shredder seem to have solved it) then you’d have no UK competition albeit in a small market.

(Stans Crest rims seem in short supply in 24… )

If you can get a frame, forks and shock with cranks and headset fitted your immediate market would be people not intimidated by screwing a few components on. You could then expand into the Bird route but I reckon you’ll struggle getting SRAM or Shimano cheaper than online prices… 😐

I also reckon you’d have a small but healthy market on bike hire places

stevextc – there’s ProPain as well, these are pretty cool and I may contemplate one for Mini Matt’s next bike if he gets really good.

https://www.propain-bikes.com/Bikes – scroll down for kids ones

I got a 404 – is it broken?

Steve- Thanks for input. Yes, there is indeed. It’s one of the avenues we’re looking at. Requires a fair bit of capital to invest if we go down that route though.

Dependent on how the idea develops, we may also have a pump track/mini trail to test bikes, sizing and components.

We’ll certainly have a guaranteed trade-in-scheme too, whereby old bikes/frames will be taken in part exchange for a new model.

Early days and just testing the water for now.

Speedster- Sorry, the link included the ‘)’, should be https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/XRSQZ2P

stevextc – there’s ProPain as well, these are pretty cool and I may contemplate one for Mini Matt’s next bike if he gets really good.

Yep chainstay length …. 433,5 mm which is 13.5mm LONGER than my Whyte T-130 and still longer than my 27.5 XC bike!

His current XC bike is a Cannondale Frame (everything but Frame/forks thrown away) which has 420mm chainstays… he’s got a 35mm Stem (stolen off my bike) and manual-ling is really hard.

His bum won’t actually go as far back as the centre of the back wheel!
(I actually have to try hard to manual on it … and my T-130 is a medium FS and its harder than that certainly no easier when it should be)

I’m not bothered about manuals as a show thing… it really makes it hard for him on drop-offs… and just de-weighing the front wheel.

This is fine in XC but pants on the trail…. in fact its leading to bad technique… he’s given up (though due to work we just had 3 weeks off him riding)
This is just short slo-mo I did to show him…

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRGoVlmwglI[/video]

There is a longer video from a month ago when he was really trying… bum all the way back… but I don’t think he can realistically do much bigger drop-offs without being able to manual or at least keep his front wheel up … Its a bit scary watching him do this TBH…. when you see it at full speed….

Also they supply 155mm cranks on a 24″ …. which makes me wonder what other compromises ….

Interesting. I need to do some more research on children’s bike geometry. Would be interesting to see how the figures vary to adult bikes. I wonder if kids bikes would benefit from ‘progressive geometry’, I would assume so though it would be more conservative compared to adult bikes.

I’d like a bike with the weight of a Beinn but less xc/hybrid geometry. I’m sure they’re great but the bars looks painfully low and the stem is longer than mine.

While we’re at it, anyone know the steerer size on a Beinn 20?

Done the survey, but note that Halfords already do free kids bike workshops http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_14552_productId_934567_langId_-1_categoryId_null

Interesting I need to do some more research on children’s bike geometry.

Yep Propain tried getting too clever … they are making a 24/26 frame….
The result is a crap geometry 24 (they do the same on the 20)
Since I have some chainstay lengths in front of me… Realising that’s not everything… but common sense should say it should be smaller than an ADULT 27.5….

A transition ripcord = 381
The cannondale (above) = 420
Cube 240 = 426
Hotrock 24 = 420
Norco Fluid 415

As a reference my T-130 med is 420mm …
If I even took the same position as Jnr on my T-130 the front wheel would stay up…. in fact I did the same drop off 10x myself…. and on a more progressive bike its no effort at all… I’ve ridden that on my HT-XC bike and I have to really put in some effort to keep the front wheel up…. of course the XC bike wants to help me squash it ….

On Jnr’s bike (even when he does everything correct which he isn’t in THAT video) the best he can do is delay the front wheel diving..

If your looking at a trail/enduro design (which is where the real hole in the market is IMHO – something the kids can go out with parents from local to BPW) then it needs to be chuck-able….