I’ve been riding an inbred for a while with 130mm forks but I’ve been finding it a bit nose-low even with a high rise, short stem. It handles nicely but I’ve been taken by surprise a few times and ended up over the bars (unusual, I’ve 20 years of mtbing from the lakes to the Alps under my belt and can count on one hand the number of times I’ve been over the bars before!). The last time involved a ruptured disc,partial paralysis and 3 months off after surgery so I’d like to avoid it. Part of the issue is I’m now about 20kg heavier so even with the stiffer springs my forks sag a lot. If I get my weight back the front seems to be too light and wash out too easily. I was considering getting a c456 instead for giggles but then I started thinking about fitting my old jnr Ts to jack the front a little (35mm higher than my current forks). That poses two questions. Will it trash the handling and will it snap the head tube off lol. Anyone any experience?

Full duck or no dinner.

p.s unless it’s something radical like BTR you shouldn’t need to fit such forks to a hardtail. Something else, such as the sizing, fit or technique is probably the issue.

Yeah I like the idea of monster front end but a frame like that would be unusable for anything other than downs!

Reading between the lines, and consulting the STW encyclopedia of stock responses…

The answer to your question is…
Skills course.

The problem of course (avoiding the snapping the headtube off issue), that at full travel the junior-t’s will still be slammed, and if anything at 0mm might even be shorter a2c than something shorter travel. This will make the front end twitchy, I think 140mm is probably about the sweet spot for hardtails (though my current steel 456 is running some u-turn 160mm Lyriks, and have run Bombers and Fox 36’s on others in the past). Stiffer springs, more compression damping?

This photo, because I love it: [url=https://flic.kr/p/aVW8ac]DSC_0662[/url] by Super Dan, on Flickr
150mm Z-150s. Terrible really, the 3.2kg fork really boat anchored the front of the bike on jumps.

Yeah skills course not needed thanks, as mentioned im no genius rider but I’ve spent most of my life with mtb being my primary sport including quite a few races, mech’d for a bike shop for 4 years, been fairly decent at trials riding and previously never had a fit or skill issue (though existing spinal injury did drastically affect both my fitness and my ability to resist impacts and shift weight backwards due to nerve damage – core strength demolished).

I’m just not overly happy with the way the inbred is dialed in just now.

Yeah the jnr t will be shorter at fully compressed but will ride higher at normal sag levels from my half-assed testing. Compression is a good call actually, my added mass may well be requiring a lot more damping on impact as static sag isn’t a million miles off normal. Hmm.

I did snap the headtube off this bike:
[url=https://flic.kr/p/mA7uw]Tabletop on Chicksands NPS 4X[/url] by Super Dan, on Flickr
casing a monster double. Woke up still clinging on to the handlebars, wondering where the rest of the bike was.

Built this with the remains:
[url=https://flic.kr/p/dsUDL]Bike_0005[/url] by Super Dan, on Flickr
Shoestring budget student 4X racing, those were the days. That whole bike cost less than my tyres for this years EWS 🙁

PS: Badly built seesaw in background belonged to michaelwsmith of this ere forum. Never allow him to carpenter near you.

Full duck or no dinner.

Never heard that phrase before, and can’t stop chuckling now that I have! 😆

I just know that I’m going to spend most of the rest of the week trying to cram that phrase in at work somewhere…

I have a 26″ chameleon with 650b talas 160 – 130 forks. The bike is almost un-rideable in some situations with them set at 160mm so I always keep them on the 130mm setting. With the 12.5mm extra on the axle to crown over the 26″ versions it like running a 170 – 140mm fork. The 130mm setting is perfect.
Different bike I know but similar.

Ran an old 456 with 160mm Bombers which were as long as a set of Jnr T’s.
Was a handful on anything that wasn’t actually pointing down, front wandered and washed out as you couldn’t get enough weight over the front. Ran them with ETA wound down for anything other than descending and removed them soon after.

Oh and Jnr T’s are shit, in the realm of pogo sticks, more flexi than a modern single crown and basically not that good.

I rode my c456 with 170mm forks for a year or so, loved it, it’ll cope with absolutely anything. You won’t snap the headtube off of that thing! I essentially used it as a downhill hardtail though, and for some trail centres.
The handling wasn’t horiffically slow, I could deal with it on any trails, just keep a short stem and wide bars. Alternatively get a travel adjust fork so that you can run it as less travel for most of the time.

I wouldn’t want to be riding round xc with it like that though.

I was using xfusion vengeance HLR DLA’s. Amazing damping (prefer them to my current pikes) and really stiff, and with travel adjust. I’m looking at getting some more cheap coil ones to put back on it! But the non-travel adjust, as it isnt too reliable

edit: a shot through the roots at the aston hill black run race
https://www.rootsandrain.com/photos/916164

Oh, and on topic…

I find that with a longer travel fork on a HT, therefore an increase in the change of head angle from static to full compression, that I feel more at risk of going OTB not less.

IMO anything longer than a 120mm fork on a HT brings with it some significant compromises to the handling. I’ve had a number of HT’s with longer travel forks on over the years, and the imbalance never worked for me.

I’m almost 20kg heavier now than when I started MTBing properly (though that’s been gained over a period of time rather than all in one go), I have to run my suspension firmer than I would have done obviously, but don’t find that the extra weight has made me any more prone to going OTB at all.

Sounds like you need an air fork to run the correct amount of sag rather than just using a longer travel fork.

170mm on a hardtail is too much really, the geometry will be all over the place.

Seems to me a bit of low speed compression damping is in order to reduce fork dive.

Oh you’re “Experienced”…

I should have realised, sorry…
That 20 years of accrued bad habbits, plus an injury induced hiatus from riding and an expensive frankenbike/spares bin mashup will almost certainly prevent you aggravating your back further…

https://www.rootsandrain.com/photos/898

Can’t link the pic but it wasn’t even that good at DH, ended up swapping to some 140mm original Pike 456’s instead which were better in every way.

Yeah skills course not needed thanks, as mentioned im no genius rider but I’ve spent most of my life with mtb being my primary sport including quite a few races, mech’d for a bike shop for 4 years, been fairly decent at trials riding and previously never had a fit or skill issue

Everyone can learn something.

I found my C456 rode best with 120-130mm travel for general stuff, 140mm for rougher rides. Longer would probably be fine for DH.

Is the frame the right size for your height?, if the frame is too short a reach it could have you putting too much weight on the bars (even with a short stem) or too easily putting too much over the rear end as well.

Plus comments above about fork settings and air forks (firmer options).

My c456 has 36’s at 140mm, wouldn’t want them any longer. It also has a 2degree Slackset.

Oh you’re “Experienced”…

I should have realised, sorry…
That 20 years of accrued bad habbits, plus an injury induced hiatus from riding and an expensive frankenbike/spares bin mashup will almost certainly prevent you aggravating your back further…

There’s always one who takes things the wrong way… today it’s you… congrats.

Everyone can learn something.

Naturally, I’m not suggesting I consider myself perfect, or even close to perfect, but certainly competent enough to know it’s not a skill issue that’s causing a dodgy handling problem. I don’t have the same issues on my FS or my rigid – hence thinking it’s a setup/hardware problem. Of course the others could be masking my dodgy skills, but I’m pretty confident in my ability not to go OTB on a rigid or a FS on the same trails, and neither of those catch me by surprise like the hardtail does, so I’m guessing the sensitivity is caused by the setup.

That said, I wasn’t ever asking for judgement on my skill, I was asking a specific question about a specific piece of hardware; it’s a long time since I’ve been here but I forgot some locals try to answer every possible question but the one asked 🙂

Oh and Jnr T’s are shit, in the realm of pogo sticks, more flexi than a modern single crown and basically not that good.

I’ve no problem with 20mm JnrT’s being pogo’y or noodly, did you have them setup right when you owned them? I often get people commenting to the contrary after trying them, with a look of surprise. Heavy as hell though.

I’m not a massive fan of air forks, never have been to be honest – I’m still a large fan of coil/oil as nothing quite matches the feel (from modern alternatives I’ve tried, most feel stictiony (higher pressures for my weight maybe causing higher seal contact forces) and I don’t have a grand to drop on a new set of top end forks to get similar feel but I do have a number of alternatives sat around the garage!).

Thanks to the folks who actually answered the question or something close!

Oh you’re “Experienced”…

I should have realised, sorry…
That 20 years of accrued bad habbits, plus an injury induced hiatus from riding and an expensive frankenbike/spares bin mashup will almost certainly prevent you aggravating your back further…

Oh, and further to this. What would you like me to answer to the skills option – “ah yes, it must be my skill – I’ll go spend a few hundred quid on a course, ignore all possible bike-caused issues and assume it’s me at fault despite all other potential causes”. And if so, how many bike issues do you think this could cover, and would you only ever take the word of a championship winning rider when considering skill level to be OK? And what do you hope to achieve by asking the question while not suggesting other avenues of investigation?

🙄 Maybe I should have suggested the same thing as an alternative to your wife’s bike stealth upgrades? 🙄

I’m using 160mm and 170mm Marzocchis on a couple of Genesis Alpitudes, the 160mm one ( with a -1 headset) in Greece and the other one in the “grim north” that is the Isle of Man.
I can climb perfectly well with either of them, well, as well as my aging body will alow me to anyway and I don’t find either over-forked. I do run with about 25% sag though.

Clearly I touched a nerve… 😉

Are you Sifting my post history you cheeky little closet stalker?

If so you’ll note I did do the DH HT thing myself a few years back, with a 7″ Boxxer… I really wouldn’t recommend it, I am now riding a 456 with a 5″ fork which is much better handling, there’s a point beyond which you turn a perfectly good HT into a bit of a barge by putting too much fork on it…

Your HT may not be “dialed” but your proposed solution isn’t a brilliant one either…

What led me to think you might benefit from coaching?

Exhibit A:

finding it a bit nose-low even with a high rise, short stem

Exhibit B:

If I get my weight back the front seems to be too light and wash out too easily

A- suggests you’ve set you bars too high and far back, supported by B… Your hanging off the arse end of the bike, and setting it up to make this habit worse not better…

Plus it sounds like you are “getting your gnarr on” with what is essentially an XC biased, geometry frame, your instinct to look at a 456 (or a similar longer/slacker frame) is good, but jacking the front up on some old Jnr-Ts will just be repeating the same mistake, setting the bike up to shift your weight back by default and robbing you of front wheel traction… It would probably work better with your current 130mm fork and some lower rise bars, you get longer wheelbase and more forward weight aiding grip. but then that’s all guesswork based on what you have already posted…

A good instructor won’t just tell you when to brake or pedal, they should find out what you want to get from the session, so tell them about your issues with cornering on the HT, in your case they should advise on how you position yourself for corners and probably give some pointers on bike setup too, their advice would at least be based on observation and experience…

I’ll go spend a few hundred quid on a course, ignore all possible bike-caused issues and assume it’s me at fault despite all other potential causes

~£300 on a new carbon frame (plus sundries) isn’t an insignificant spend, are you really sure your plan will cure your issues better than a spot of coaching?

456 – 4″, 5″ or 6″. 100 to 150ish. So, warranty = no with a 170 😉

I’ve no problem with 20mm JnrT’s being pogo’y or noodly, did you have them setup right when you owned them? I often get people commenting to the contrary after trying them, with a look of surprise. Heavy as hell though.

As far as I recall setup involved guessing the oil level and swapping the washers in the preload stack, after that you could change oil or springs. Not much. Tried most things and the cheap pikes that replaced them were a lot better. After that the 36’s were stiffer and lighter and better.

I’m not a massive fan of air forks, never have been to be honest

I’d say most people wouldn’t be able to tell in a double blind test with a properly set up fork these days.

I don’t have the same issues on my FS or my rigid – hence thinking it’s a setup/hardware problem.

Hi; yes; you’re currently running forks that’re too long for the frame. THe inbred is designed for shorter travel forks. Long travel forks are pretty knacker on hardtails anway – you need to get some 80-100mm travel forks and make sure the spring is correct for your weight! This will mean you need air forks as it’s pretty difficult to find heavy enough springs for heavy people (or it always used to be).

Clearly I touched a nerve…

Are you Sifting my post history you cheeky little closet stalker?

No, you just came across like an unhelpful smart arse (I’ve no idea whether you are or not, to be fair), so I clicked two buttons and found a post which showed a little hypocrisy, largely in order to reflect on how your own posts can come across the same way. I guess I just forgot how ridiculously competitive this forum gets for no apparent reason! It’s nice to see your response here though – bit more constructive, thanks!

A- suggests you’ve set you bars too high and far back, supported by B… Your hanging off the arse end of the bike, and setting it up to make this habit worse not better…

Two different situations though – setting bars further forward and lower makes OTB far more likely (I have swapped out 3 stems over the last 12 months or so,shorter reduces the OTB sensation naturally). Sure taking weight off the front makes washout more likely but that’s really only to counter the OTB sensation that comes from not being able to dial out the 50-60mm of sag up front in a neutral position. I can lean forward when cornering to transfer weight up front, but if the bike is too long I cannot get far enough back (for extended periods) to counter an unexpected divot or rock lobbing me over the front (I think this is injury specific lack of mobility). It’s a compromise, but with the nose-diving forks it’s hard to balance with other features. Hence my considering longer forks and a slacker frame geom with approx the same sag – leading to a naturally slightly higher front and allowing a longer stem again. IT’s one of a number of solutions I can see, but your points are valid, I don’t disagree in principle.

A good instructor won’t just tell you when to brake or pedal, they should find out what you want to get from the session, so tell them about your issues with cornering on the HT, in your case they should advise on how you position yourself for corners and probably give some pointers on bike setup too, their advice would at least be based on observation and experience…

Aye, of course – and it is something I wanted to do, but not just yet while I’m still recovering from the surgery and can’t put much effort into anything -all I can do is try to fix any hardware induced tendency to crash! The long-term damage has meant that I find it pretty hard to carry momentum into rough stuff – those moments where the bike tends to decelerate quickly and you can unweight and shove forward with your hands and feet to ease it through – I can’t do that just now, those core muscles are at about 5% of normal and bending isn’t really fully up to speed, so I just get punted forward.

~£300 on a new carbon frame (plus sundries) isn’t an insignificant spend, are you really sure your plan will cure your issues better than a spot of coaching?

It’s not much TBH, plus I felt like a change and wondered what my options were, and it’s a bit of an incentive to get out when I know it will hurt like hell and leave me with nerve pain for days. IF I have to bin it and move on in 6 months it’s cash well spent. I’d rather call on the help of tuition to improve my flow and jumping TBH, which is certainly an area I could do with help on and have been considering for a few years!

That said, I’m tempted to just stick with my FS for now and deal with “fixing” the HT when I’m less damaged, I just find 6″ of dual travel in the UK turns most trails into boredom when my fitness won’t let me get up to a decent speed just now!

As far as I recall setup involved guessing the oil level and swapping the washers in the preload stack, after that you could change oil or springs. Not much. Tried most things and the cheap pikes that replaced them were a lot better. After that the 36’s were stiffer and lighter and better.

Yeah, I never had any problem getting them to feel exactly as I wanted with a slightly heavier oil and some basic adjustments. I find most air forks feel like pogos in comparison, but to be fair I’ve never bought a set and spent time nailing settings the same way – they felt so bad I didn’t even try, plus the idea of seal failure “in the wild” seems like a fundamental insecurity I don’t like much! Maybe I’ll risk a set soon!

Hi; yes; you’re currently running forks that’re too long for the frame.

YEah, the 130s are too long for the inbred, but it doesn’t suffer the usual sloppy head angle and horrible handling because I just end up with boatloads of sag which corrects (my sagged A2C length is approx the same as a “properly” sagged A2C length on a shorter fork, if you get my drift). It does make it feel a bit more spongey due to the heaps of “negative” travel.

plus the idea of seal failure “in the wild” seems like a fundamental insecurity I don’t like much! Maybe I’ll risk a set soon!

Careful with that imagination…

When forks are bottomed out they are all pretty much the same length.
Original 456 wasn’t really that slack compared to where things are now. It was originally designed to have a 74deg head angle at full fork compression.

Later models are 1.5deg slacker with steeper seat angle and lower bb (Evo/evo2)

Slackset is great idea. Works do a 1.5deg one.

Careful with that imagination…

You never had it happen? Me neither, but I’ve been on a group ride where it has, and I’ve had a friend who had it happen too. I’ve had a chain snap 5 miles into the hills and had to walk the whole way back, late, in the rain, in shorts and Tshirt without lights. I take reliability a bit more seriously now, purely because I don’t like walking bloody miles for no reason!

YEah, the 130s are too long for the inbred, but it doesn’t suffer the usual sloppy head angle and horrible handling because I just end up with boatloads of sag which corrects (my sagged A2C length is approx the same as a “properly” sagged A2C length on a shorter fork, if you get my drift). It does make it feel a bit more spongey due to the heaps of “negative” travel.

Poor handling is only a problem when the wheels are on the ground, though, it’s not too big a deal. Problem is when you’re going off a drop or your front wheel is unweighted. The fork’s going to extend fully and the impact of landing is going to put stress on the frame which it might not necessarily be able to cope with.

I have a steel 456 with 150mm revs on it, handles really well though i wouldnt want a fork that was any longer. Have you considered going for a steel frame and putting the extra money towards a modern fork? Marzochh 55 set to 150 or a u-turn lyrik maybe?