If you go to the BBC report you can see the incident that prompted the argument. Google streetview shows that the bus pulled out of a Give Way bus lane, into the cyclists path and then squeezes him against an overtaking car. Looking at it: the bike could have eased off and let the bus push in, so he is being pretty aggresive. Bus is still in the wrong, however, even in this initial incident.
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Bus driver jailed for using his vehicle as a weapon
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Posted 1 year ago #
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DezB - Member
bus pulls alongside the cyclist and side swipes him. Yes it will knock him off, but is unlikely to result in deathHow would you know!? Have you done tests!?
I seem to recall a cop getting lambasted on STW for killing a man recently. All he did was push him over. Unlikely to result in death eh?
True, but both IMHO are still unlikely to result in death. It can happen though. Plus both are wrong.
Find myself agreeing with this mythical TJ fella.
Posted 1 year ago # -
both IMHO are still unlikely to result in death
Thats a bit like saying that it was an unforeseen consequence that someone might die after having a shotgun pointed at them and the trigger pulled. Of course being deliberately run down by a bus is likely to result in death. No doubt TJ'll be along in a minute to suggest that in this instance the helmet manufacturer should also be charged due to the certainty of rotational forces causing injury in an accident likewise being a foreseeable consquence, but just saying something obviously daft doesn't make it right.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Berm Bandit - Member
both IMHO are still unlikely to result in death
Thats a bit like saying that it was an unforeseen consequence that someone might die after having a shotgun pointed at them and the trigger pulled. Of course being deliberately run down by a bus is likely to result in death. No doubt TJ'll be along in a minute to suggest that in this instance the helmet manufacturer should also be charged due to the certainty of rotational forces causing injury in an accident likewise being a foreseeable consquence, but just saying something obviously daft doesn't make it right.
Not like pulling a shotgun trigger at all. Have you watched it? If bus driver wanted to do real damage he would not have drawn alongside before side swiping cyclist. Yes, it was dangerous, yes it was wrong and he is rightly jailed for it. IMHO it was not attempted murder, and the court seemed to take that view too.
Posted 1 year ago # -
the court seemed to take that view too.
Actually not, its not the courts that decide what the driver is charged with. Similarly in the case of the Rhyll 4 the same people (CPS in collusion with the Police) decided that the appropriate offence for killing 4 people was driving with bald tyres, for which they were very severely criticised later.
The simple fact is in this country if you want to do away with someone, buy them a bike and then run them over. You will get off pretty much Scot free. In this instance the only reason the driver got done was the irrefutable video evidence.
Posted 1 year ago # -
As the fellow cyclist was side swiped by the bus, and he was hurtling along the floor on his side, i bet he or somebody else shouted BOLLARDS,luckily he missed them.
Posted 1 year ago # -
he's a maniac.. or perhaps just an idiot.. but probably both.. and rather smug about it too by the look of the photograph of him that's appeared online..
I'm a yoghurt weaving lentil boiling sandal wearing bleeding heart liberal.. but at the moment I can realistically only see the positive side of 'very traumatising things' happening to him while he's on his short break in jail..
Posted 1 year ago # -
Ordered myself a rear-view handlebar mirror from Wiggle...
Posted 1 year ago # -
Berm Bandit - Member
the court seemed to take that view too.
Actually not, its not the courts that decide what the driver is charged with. Similarly in the case of the Rhyll 4 the same people (CPS in collusion with the Police) decided that the appropriate offence for killing 4 people was driving with bald tyres, for which they were very severely criticised later.
The simple fact is in this country if you want to do away with someone, buy them a bike and then run them over. You will get off pretty much Scot free. In this instance the only reason the driver got done was the irrefutable video evidence.
Yes, was just being simplistic, its the CPS not the court.
I do agree with what you say regarding the ease of "getting away with murder" for vehicle drivers.There are cases of deliberate murder, but most deaths have never been the intended outcome. I really don't want to go into that debate.
Do you think the driver of the bus was trying to kill the cyclist? I don't think he was, but that is just my perspective.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Attempted Murder
In contrast to the offence of murder, attempted murder requires the existence of an intention to kill, not merely to cause grievous bodily harm: R v Grimwood (1962) 3 All ER 285. The requisite intention to kill can be inferred by the circumstances: R v Walker and Hayles (1990) 90 Cr App R 226.From the CPS Website: So tell me precisely how you don't infer an intention to kill out of someone deliberately driving a bus into a cyclist......what was he doing trying to do his hair nicely for him?
Posted 1 year ago # -
IMHO it was not attempted murder, and the court seemed to take that view too.
The driver wasn't charged with attempted murder so the court didn't have to decide if it was attempted murder and had no view on it
Posted 1 year ago # -
Berm Bandit - Member
Attempted Murder
In contrast to the offence of murder, attempted murder requires the existence of an intention to kill, not merely to cause grievous bodily harm: R v Grimwood (1962) 3 All ER 285. The requisite intention to kill can be inferred by the circumstances: R v Walker and Hayles (1990) 90 Cr App R 226.From the CPS Website: So tell me precisely how you don't infer an intention to kill out of someone deliberately driving a bus into a cyclist......what was he doing trying to do his hair nicely for him?
Steady on, did I say the Driver was being friendly? I am not defending him as his actions were despicable. In my opinion, if I am allowed to express it, and please feel free to disagree, the Bus driver was NOT trying to kill the cyclist. Now, what he did would almost certainly result in injury, but I do not think he was intent on murder.
gwaelod - Member
IMHO it was not attempted murder, and the court seemed to take that view too.
The driver wasn't charged with attempted murder so the court didn't have to decide if it was attempted murder and had no view on it
Yes, my apologies, I was just being simplistic, the Police/CPS took that view.
Posted 1 year ago # -
The initial incident on the roundabout looks pretty trivial tbh.
Yes, the bus was in the wrong lane, but he had some clear space ahead of the cyclist and indicated.The bus was ahead of the cyclist for a good while.
I can only assume that the cyclist was feeling at danger from a multitude of similar incidents which built up into this 'banging the side of the bus' etc.
I've felt like that before and reacted in a similarly 'out of proportion' way.
The thing I'm taking from all this is - do what you can to keep everyone safe and calm. Try and communicate your vulnerability in a way which doesn't enrage.
Posted 1 year ago # -
the Police/CPS took that view
.... and that particular statement is the bone of contention. Very often these decisions are made for the shakiest of reasons, and lead to acceptance of crime rather than dealing with it.
Frankly this was not a driving offence, it was a criminal assault with a lethal weapon, while at the same time risking the safety of the passengers in his care and he should be treated accordingly. Regretably it may well be that what he got was the heaviest punishment available, but it doesn't make it right.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I can only assume that the cyclist was feeling at danger from a multitude of similar incidents which built up into this 'banging the side of the bus' etc.
I can assume he was a confrontational idiot for doing this and he was taking the holier than thou stance that many cyclists take when riding on the road.
All of which can result in getting run over by a bus.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I think the "used the bus as a weapon" comment is poor from a judge, as it does invite the question "why wan't he charged with assault/GBH?"
Posted 1 year ago # -
Berm Bandit - Member
the Police/CPS took that view
.... and that particular statement is the bone of contention. Very often these decisions are made for the shakiest of reasons, and lead to acceptance of crime rather than dealing with it.
Frankly this was not a driving offence, it was a criminal assault with a lethal weapon, while at the ame time risking the safety of the passengers in his care and he should be treated accordingly. Regretably it may well be that what he got was the heaviest punishment available, but it doesn't make it right.
Absolutely agree. I am in favour of far heavier sentences for this sort of incident and for far longer driving bans, including lifetime driving bans. Too mant people think it is a right to drive rather than a privilidge, and I believe anyone that abuses it should have it removed for a much longer time.
Posted 1 year ago # -
"why wan't he charged with assault/GBH?"
Perhaps thats precisely why he said it!
Posted 1 year ago # -
He was convicted of GBH, in addition to dangerous driving.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Good
Posted 1 year ago # -
Deleted - I see it now says he did get convicted of GBH
Posted 1 year ago # -
The initial incident is very annoying - bad carve up by an impatient bad bus driver. However - the cyclist only had to back off to let the bus in and not get squished there. Once you get into an altercation don't use your vulnerable body to block a multi tonne bus - and IMO the cyclist does a deliberate block on the the bus - lost his rag as well.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Some interesting stuff here, TJ
Posted 1 year ago # -
I don't think it really matters if you're on a bicycle or not either, someone cuts you up, pulls out in front etc.. definitely best to hang back and let it go even though it means letting someone "get away with it".
Plenty of examples of motorist vs motorist road rage as well...
Posted 1 year ago # -
A bus pulled out of a bus stop layby as I got to it, he half hestitated but had started move. I slowed up, waved him out and fell in behind him, he started manouver without checking properly, I would have been in the right to continue and call him all sorts, but I didn't. Further up the road I past him, later still he drew up alongside me at lights and waved and we exchanged nods. Nice an pleasant.
A lot of bad driver, a few bad cyclists. Guess which ones are more dangerous....
Posted 1 year ago # -
Hill, 29, from Frome, Somerset,
29 you're having a laugh!
Posted 1 year ago # -
29 stone
Posted 1 year ago # -
17 months not enough IMO.
Using a bus to harm someone is behaviour we don't need. It's psychopathic
How is 17 months sending the right deterrent signals to other aggressive drivers who hate cyclists and contemplate the same?
I;m sick of nearly getting knocked off every road ride because drivers think their needs are the only important onesPosted 1 year ago # -
he looks like the brother from my name is Earl!
Posted 1 year ago # -
No excuses for the bus driver but arguing with a driver, tugging their wiper then riding off slowly in front the vehicle is suicidal.
"Mr Mead pulled his bike up against the front of the Bugler Coach as they stopped at traffic lights and tugged at one of the windscreen wipers. He then rode off, at a slow pace, in front of the bus."
Posted 1 year ago # -
17 months not enough IMO.
I thought so too. Now whilst I don't know the full details, the sentencing guidelines for GBH with a weapon is a baseline of 18 months and a range of 12 months to 3 years. For a first time offender without much in the way of other aggravating factors, 17 months seems about right (you can argue that the guidelines are wrong if you like, but that's a separate issue - he got prosecuted for the correct thing and sentenced in accordance with the guidelines).
Posted 1 year ago #
Topic Closed
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