Anyone who takes pleasure in harming animals is a bit of a numbskull imo.

In the dark ages, before the masses were educated, before there was a multiplicity of stimulating leisure activities, one can understand how this mindless cruelty became a "tradition", I suspect out of sheer boredom because there was little else better to do.

You can imagine one day, some guy thought, "let's throw a goat out of the church tower for a laugh and see if it survives". The rest, quite depressingly, is history. Bullfighting, fox hunting etc – sad person's entertainment!

Those who still endulge in this sort of stuff are pretty pathetic given the leisure choices we all have these days.

I am really sorry if I am being stupid but when did banning other peoples shit (not least of all those in other countries!) become a desirable thing to do? What happened to live and let live? They are not hurting anyone else. They are hurting animals.

Inflicting pain on animals is uncool and I would never choose to do it (except wasps, tics and mosquitos but they are another matter), but… if other people want to do it, do we really have a right to ban them from doing so. Upon their conscience be it. To my mind, the right to freedom is worth much more than a few peoples right not to feel disgusted. Widespread moral outrage is one thing but a few offended vegetarians should not hold the balance of power.

Our society does much worse things to this planet, its people and it lifeforms than hunt the odd fox or kill the odd bull.

Can we all have a moratorium on banning each others stuff for a bit and think about it?

a few offended vegetarians

Is that all it is ?

In that case fair point. Although I was under the impression it was more than just that.

I threw that bit in as I was finding myself coming over all reasonable 😉

feed the liberals to the lions!!

primtive pastime.

We can make arguments either way but to say one mans abuse of animals is worse than anothers is treading a fine line.

I have a dog and he has rights. Cows have less rights because we intend to eat them, but we must be humane. I bet you'd have the rat poison out in no time if they got into your house but who cares about the poor suffering rat, eeking it outs last few breaths beneath the floorboards of your house as you potter off to the bathroom in your slippers.

It is all a question of priorities and if you intend to pour public resources into banning the activities of significant numbers of the public on a PR whim then you had better have a much better case for it than the personal disgust of a load of city dwellers.

Otherwise the law is an ass.

The bull IS eaten, usually just around the corner.

anyway, should we be more outraged by THIS

I'd eat a dog, definitely.

I'd eat a dog, definitely.

Which suggests that you are not entirely in step with mainstream thinking.

Which suggests that you are not entirely in step with mainstream thinking.

LOL. No, I guess that would be true. I'd eat Dolphin too, love to in fact. The mainstream seem to really like McDonalds so erm.. yeah.

Would you use the rat poison Mr Lynch?

No, it makes the rats inedible.

Warfarin is nasty stuff, and inflicts unnecessary suffering on the rats. It's used by local authorities and pest control firms because it is cheap.

I saw on the news a story about some scumbag who tried to smuggle fertilised Peregrine Falcon eggs from the UK to Dubai. So that some rich **** could have Peregrines for their falconry 'sport'. Should we keep our noses out of others' cultures? Like **** we should. Cause irreparable damage to our own wildlife and ecology, so some selfish **** can play rich men's games?

You see this is the thing that gets me, and do bear in mind that I am not involved in any bloodsports and have no desire to be, it seems to me that the stuff that people get excited about is not the massive cruelty and injustice in our own widespread systematic abuse of animals. It is when someone seems to be enjoying it too much.

We all have different preferences but should the preferences of the majority be allowed to dictate the behaviour of the few. What about when it is 51% against 49%? Why should people who like hunting have to pay taxes to enforce their own subjugation? As long as people are not actively encroaching on the rights of another person, who the hell are we to say how they should behave?

As long as people are not actively encroaching on the rights of another person, who the hell are we to say how they should behave?

Our laws regarding how we treat other human beans and animals tend to eventually catch up with the moral zeitgeist of the times. Once upon a time this country was full of insanely cruel bloodsports. The moral zeitgeist dictated that these activities were no longer acceptable in a "civilised" society. The laws then became changed. I'd hazard that if 49% of the population had been just crazy about fox-hunting it (ie the type with dogs) wouldn't be illegal.

Neanderthals who don't agree end up having to tow the line whether they like it or not.

It was good to see the tables turned. I was cheering the bull all the way. No sympathy for those people sat "safely" behind a fence, taking pleasure in the slow death of an animal.

Warfarin is nasty stuff, and inflicts unnecessary suffering on the rats. It's used by local authorities and pest control firms because it is cheap.

So what's the "non-cheap" alternative then ?

I as far as I can figure out Warfarin is used because it is the most practical and effective way to kill rats which pose life-threatening health risks to humans.

Of course there is always the risk that an ageing rat with cardiovascular disease is given a new lease of life after taking the Warfarin.

Quite how this is in anyway connected with bulls being killed as slowly as possible purely for entertainment purposes, has gone completely over my head though.

I was cheering the bull on for this one as well.

I'd have no problem with fox hunting if it was one toff using only his teeth vs one fox.

I have thought about humane badger baiting as well, where the badger is ridiculed with such phrases as

"what's that? is it a skunk?"
"call yourself a badger?"
"you're not a tough as a honey badger are you, you stripy little ****"

the badger is then allowed to bite the protagonist with the most cutting insult

I was cheering the bull all the way. No sympathy for those people sat "safely" behind a fence, taking pleasure in the slow death of an animal.

I haven't read all of this thread, but has no one pointed out that the incident in Tafalla Spain wasn't a bullfight ?
The only reason the bull was put down was because he went on the rampage, had he not, he would have lived.

My comments are purely aimed at bullfights. I'm not much bothered with Course Landaise and the likes.

The point was that most people are perfectly happy to be cruel to an animal if it suits their needs but are very quick to jump on the cruelty bandwagon when someone seems to be enjoying it too much.

I also think that we have started to forget about liberty, what happens when mountain bikes are restricted to trail centres after the govt is lobbied by influential red socks?

I think bull fighting is uneccesary but I am very much against paying to enforce other people to not do it. You wouldn't believe what they get up to with dogs in Nigeria. Frankly though, it is not my problem. Bullfighting isn't yours.

….quick to jump on the cruelty bandwagon when someone seems to be enjoying it too much.

Yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head there.

Most people have a problem with animals being killed very slowly purely for enjoyment.

The problem with bullfighting is not that it's cruel to animals; rather that it only exists to allow people to ENJOY the animal cruelty.

That's why it's bad.

Of course, it's not my problem, but there you go. Still bad. Just one more bit of nastiness in the world about which I can do nothing.

So what's the "non-cheap" alternative then ?

Shoot them. Or use Humane traps.

Of course, it's not my problem, but there you go. Still bad. Just one more bit of nastiness in the world about which I can do nothing.

just love your fellow man a bit more and spread the good vibes to counteract the negative people with the bad ones.

as bill and ted once said "just be excellent to each other"

I know the original link wasn't about Bullfighting ernie. But the thread took that direction anyway.

When a civilised country like Spain shares the EU with me, I'll keep on at them about bullfighting. I'll decide whether it's my problem or not. In any case, there is a growing movement against bullfighting in Spain. Already banned in the Canaries and Catalonia…eventually the rest of them will see sense.

Shoot them. Or use Humane traps.

Ah, right, as I suspected……….there isn't any practical or effective alternatives.

Practical and effective in terms of people, but not the environment.

You see why you're so grumpy and negative? It's because of all the lead and pesticides in the ecosystem. You'd be happier if they weren't.

Mind you, you're probably happiest being a grumpy bastard anyway.

I am just not very down with the whole banning of things without a really good reason. For some people watching animals die constitutes a really good time. That seems to disgust you but for me that is not a good enough reason to tell other people that they are not allowed to do it. Who here voted to ban fox hunting? Oh yeah, you couldn't…

Yeah, but you can attempt to sabotage hunts. Or kill fox hunting people.

Effective and practical.

Who here voted to ban fox hunting? Oh yeah, you couldn't…

Well, you can meet you local MP, who would have the vote in Parliament, and express your views. You could join a political party and have some influence. No-one's stopping you do that.

IE a campaign of bombing bullrings would have a significant effect I'd imagine. Close them down, no bullfighting. Not condoning terrorism, but if people feel strongly enough about something, then they do actually have a fair amount of power.

Yeah, but you can attempt to sabotage hunts. Or kill fox hunting people.

Effective and practical.

Now we're talking. And how many actual hunts sabs were there? Far fewer than there were hunters.

Yeah, but you can attempt to sabotage hunts. Or kill fox hunting people.

agree with hunt sabotage, murder of an ape to save a canid seems a bit hypocritical though it's a bit like pro lifers murdering abortion clinic workers

Practical and effective in terms of people, but not the environment.

😕 Eh ? WTF you talking about Goblinsafety ?

What do you want? A referendum on everything? I'm not up for banning everything either, but we live in a democracy – where the rights of minorities to do as they please unless what they please disgusts the vast majority. In which case, they'll be forced to stop…eventually.

There are plenty of sports which exploit animals for humans' enjoyment which I'd gladly see ended tomorrow but I'm not revulsed by them to the level that I am by bullfighting. It's not like it's just a few liberal leftie nutters who oppose bullfighting.

Having been to Ipsos Mori to find backup for my argument I realise that I am very much in the minority. That is not to say that the majority is neccesarily right. 😉

And how many actual hunts sabs were there? Far fewer than there were hunters.

Well I don't know actual figures tbh. And neither do you, I suspect.

Oh, and please don't try and ban fishing, my father is a mad fisherman and he would be heartbroken.

I realise that I am very much in the minority.

I've been trying to tell you that, but you just ignored me.

Ernie:

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/Images/ratpoison_tcm6-16130.pdf

Fact is an increasing number of people in Spain oppose bullfighting. It's just that it's only more recently the anti-bullfighting lobby has become politically vociferous. Modern Spain knows it must shed aspects of it's culture which are distasteful and offensive to other members of the global community.

Some people in the North of England still insist on using outside toilets. Thanks to pressure from people throughout the UK, this barbaric practice has been all but irradicated.

Well I don't know actual figures tbh. And neither do you, I suspect.

My dad was in with that lot in the minehead area, when the hunt was on, you would get dozens of 4×4 vehicles, blocking up the local laybys watching the hunt, people on foot, several on horses, dog handlers, caterers, drivers. There would have had to be bus-loads of sabs to outnumber them.