building bike lights. Time to retire or

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building bike lights. Time to retire or

83 posts & 58 voices | Started 1 year ago by trout | Latest reply from jazid

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trout - Member

quite a few of you know my stuff. or have one of my lights / kits ect

Like everyone time is ticking along and with the swamping of the biking community
with cheapo Bastid lights. which are not as bad as they seem well some folks are happy to get one year from
one and owt after is a bonus .

so have been doing too much thinking these last few weeks .
I even went so far as to buy some sample XML bastid clones to see if it was worth getting some to sell on
Can get them for a very good price but when you add shipping and the dreaded 20% vat which will get added when they arrive in this country. it would be hard to sell them and make a profit when you consider the price one costs from Dealextreme inc shipping and then there is the back up when they break down so not going that route .

I am coming to an end of the Liberators I have housings for, And that has been a brilliant light for me so it is coming to time to make a decision.
all the main stream light makers have caught up and are now using the xpg leds so my cutting edge has been removed .

I could have another run of Libs done ( one option ) but it has been on the go for nearly 3 seasons. so in not cutting edge stuff any more

another option would be to do an XML light of some sort Cracking leds and considering that 2 of them are the same as a liberator with 6 XPgs .

or just pack it in and just play around maybe with diy kits
and the odd bespoke crazy light and old stuff upgrades .

I guess what I am asking is will there be a market for good quality very bright biking lights ( that can also be very dim too )

Dont worry all you Liberator owners I will still keep enough spares for backup service even if I give up making lights .

Posted 1 year ago #
gamo - Member

I love my Mini!

Posted 1 year ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

Have the mainstream manufacturers caught up?

I think there is a place in the market for a tiny 500 lumen light for helmet mounting. I thik that is the way to go - not huge outputs but tiny lights with great efficiency - xml run at half power and thus only need a tiny heatsink and battery

Posted 1 year ago #
Zulu-Eleven - Member

Suggestion...

There's a lot of us out here who've had lights for maybe a couple of years or more now - and the technology has moved on, I think a lot of us would pay for an upgrade service!

Take vision 4's for example - if someone with lots of knowledge of LED's was willing to upgrade the fitted ones to the latest XPG's for a reasonable price, then customers who'd shelled out £300 for a very good light a couple of years ago would be happy to update it rather than buying a new light and losing all that money!

Posted 1 year ago #
valleydaddy - Member

some very good suggestions from both TandemJeremy and Zulu-Eleven for you there Trout.

Keeping it specialist enough dare I say niche is the key the 2 options offered above may be ideal for you to do as the big boys/importers would not be interested in doing the upgrade route for sure.

It would be a shame for you to stop making lights at all as the ones I have seen are awesome.

Good luck with what ever you decide to do Mr Trout

Posted 1 year ago #
trout - Member

Zulu-eleven

that sounds good in theory but some lights are very good to upgrade. sadly the hope 4 is not one of them
the way it has been designed makes it very labour intensive so as to make it not value for money upgrade.

Most of the upgrades I have done this year have covered the price of parts and postage. plus maybe a couple of beers but I like doing them as it feeds the tinkering gene and I get to learn how the main stream makers do stuff.

TJ. Gamos mini fits that criteria if run on the lower levels Glad. you like it. Gamo

Posted 1 year ago #
TooTall - Member

Given the improvements in LEDs and drivers, could you do anything useful with rechargeable AA batteries as the power source? Dinotte turned out a useful wee light running on 4 x AAs a few years ago - you must be able to go better now than they did - which would give a useable light for a lot of people with rechargeable batteries rather than buying a bespoke power source.

Oh - why not look at a new housing? You've said before that you could get one just as effective as your current design but with less machining, therefore cheaper.

Posted 1 year ago #
druidh - Member

The AA idea is a good one.

Posted 1 year ago #
Hairychested - Member

I will want a lovely small but bright light this year, if you go who else will there be to go to? I disagree others have caught up, look at Si from Progressive, bikes are similar, customer service is what counts a lot, he wins on this count against many other brands. In my opinion you offer a choice, some of us can't/don't want to build lights and having them created by an artist is what we lust after. Please keep your brain busy, create some sub-£200 light (with a battery) OR look at the suggestion by TooTall. BTW You could have a look at the rear lights too perhaps?
Good luck!
Kris

Posted 1 year ago #
snaps - Member

Depends on what motivates you, I looked at custom housings but the investment cost of CNC work & anodising worried me if they didn't sell so I've just stuck to Halogen/HID to LED conversions & custom work - I've done about sixty & have made a reasonable amount from it & learnt that beam pattern & colour temperature are more important then lumens (I was riding with nearly 6000 but now only 3900 after much experimenting) but when the clocks change & your inbox fills up with enquiries you'll probably give it another go

Posted 1 year ago #
Junkyard - Member

like the AA route as it opens up the market to others who would faint at the cost of a proper light
The light of yours I own is still going strong

Posted 1 year ago #
ton - Member

one thing i think about, as a business side.
trout lights are awesome............and seem very very reliable and robust.
once you have bought one i can't see many people buying another.
so as a long term business venture, is it viable.

Posted 1 year ago #
PeterPoddy - Member

Trout, i think what you should be looking at if you can is the optics. There's loads of lights using the same technology in a fancy housing but what we need is a better beam pattern. Anyone who's ever ridden a Light and Motion ARC will know what a beautiful wide, even beam they had. A lot of the new stuff is silly bright but come to some tight twisty singletrack and you'll struggle to see the corners when you get to them without a head mounted light as well. We need wider, more even beam patterns please!

Posted 1 year ago #
IA - Member

We need wider, more even beam patterns please

Depends where you ride, maybe go for the niche custom stuff? Build to order, so you can make lights that suit the customer. Build to suit their usual night ride, no more burntime (weight + expense) than they need, with the light output and beam spread they need. Regular ride's in the trees? Wide beam, not much penetration. Ride on the moors? Don't need so wide a beam, but seeing further's useful.

If you continue, then you need to do what the mass produced doesn't - cater to the individual customer.

Posted 1 year ago #
Inbred456 - Member

Have to agree on the AA route. I bought a Fenix L2T AA Torch because I wanted a powerful light that was light and could use AA cells. The Fenix was about 180 lumens but only lasted about 1 1/2hrs with the best 2800NM's. The choice of power output was poor Full or low (10 lumens) with nothing in between. I think there would be a real market for a small lightweight AA powered headlight that had a decent run time and a decent mid-range output so you could extend the time if needed. You don't need big power for a lid light just clarity and a bit of depth because you can move or focus the beam with your head really easily compared with one on the bike that is static and just goes where the bike is pointed. The Joystick is about the only option it's expensive quite heavy and you can't extend the runtime if you haven't got a piggy back cell. AA's you can get anywhere.

Posted 1 year ago #
druidh - Member

I'm sure the bigoted MTBers on here will hate the thought of it, but have you considered other markets. Lots of Audax types do long rides involving evening/night riding on the roads. Some will invest in dynamos for it, but I think this is somewhere that the AA option would help as carrying a pocketful of batteries -or buying some from a an all-night garage would be a great option.

Posted 1 year ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

Its simple enough to run homebrew lights off AAs - Some of mine do.

Edit - I have a 200+ lumen helmet light that runs off 4 AAs and a 600+ l;umen light that runs of 12 (!!!!) this is mainly 'cos I couldn't figure out ow to make up battery packs and i already had some AAs and a charger

Posted 1 year ago #
trout - Member

Nice one Junkyard. yours must be the oldest troutlight in existence

The AA sounds good but the low power end is well covered OK they also are using old tech too

I cant see a single led light being viable. with the Bastids around at their prices. and I certainly cant get close to those prices .

Peter Poddy. the Liberator beam fills your criteria pretty much for both trail riding situations .
it has been my best liked light so far .

funny thing about lights is. some folks want quite dim. but most want to be able to ramp it up when required and it has been the hi powered ones that have sold the best even though they wont get used on hi for very long .
Runtime has been a secondary requirement as long as they will do 4 hours using a mix of med hi and low seems to suit most folks with maybe a third going for a bigger battery for all nighters .

Posted 1 year ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

Don't compete with bastids on price - go for tiny and light

Posted 1 year ago #
Junkyard - Member

yours must be the oldest troutlight in existence

Still outshines a Hope 4

Posted 1 year ago #
TooTall - Member

the low power end is well covered OK they also are using old tech too

Well could you do better with your tech? It would be a real 'transition' market for people who want good lights, have AAs but not the readies for a big light.

The other markets route is a good one to explore - I know the Dirtworker sells loads to the horse fraternity.

My mate who has the Mickey Mouse bastid light loves the tiny floods on it more than the main beam. His idea was a pair of small floods mounted as wide apart as possible on his bars - reckoned he would use them loads as they would be so small.

Posted 1 year ago #
MidlandTrailquestsGraham - Member

I should have read this thread before I started this one. http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ay-up-upgrades-any-opinions-or-experiences

Could you do what Ay Up are doing better or cheaper ?

Posted 1 year ago #
1freezingpenguin - Member

I know it's a personal thing but I prefer all in one systems like Exposure, couldn't you do something similar or is it not viable?

Posted 1 year ago #
lipseal - Member

Hope you have some LL's left later this year.

Posted 1 year ago #
DT78 - Member

Maybe you need to come up with a USP? Rather than making top quality really bright offroad lights branch out into other markets?

I'm really happy with my recent commuter light purchase - Exposure flash/flare for around £60 - more than bright enough for commuting (I also use the flash as a helmet mount for offroading witha DX flood).

Tiny, uses rechargable batteries and has a really easy to use rubber mount to remove in seconds and chuck in my pocket.

I also really like the felixbility of the ayup systems, but I just don't have £200+ to spend on lights!

Posted 1 year ago #
Ming the Merciless - Member

Love my Liberator (flat out DH at night ohhh yes.......), Mrs Ming now wants one.

I love the "made in the shed by a crazy english boffin" individuality of them.

Posted 1 year ago #
spock - Member

DIY Light kits please! Would love that! Dont have any available currently do you?

Posted 1 year ago #
trout - Member

DIY Light kits please! Would love that! Dont have any available currently do you?

Should have some left certainly have some more Aluminium on the way for the housings and have plenty of the rest of the bits in stock
need to tidy the shed and have a stock check

Posted 1 year ago #
avdave2 - Member

What about a dynamo version. It seems there is no cheap competition in that market with the Supernova triple being the only really viable off road unit. Something that could out perform that but with a lower setting for road riders who don't want to blind on coming cars might find a market.

Posted 1 year ago #
Pickers - Member

What about a dynamo version. It seems there is no cheap competition in that market with the Supernova triple being the only really viable off road unit. Something that could out perform that but with a lower setting for road riders who don't want to blind on coming cars might find a market.

+1 - I'd be interested in something like this as a decent fit and forget light to run from a hub dynamo for commuting

Posted 1 year ago #
bigjim - Member

Keep up the DIY stuff fella! That'll keep your tinkering gene happy, and us lot!

Is the bastid having a big impact on exposure and the other big boys do you think?

I think a small and light internal battery job a la exposure joystick would be a good idea, as that covers a different market area than the bastid. I like my joystick but for next winter want to make something similar with contemporary LED and obviously a bit cheaper.

Posted 1 year ago #
fisha - Member

for me personally, i think dynamo lights would be the thing i would want most nowadays.

most of my light up time is on the commute ... and i dont need blazing power, i just want something I can see by and that is reliable and I dont have to faff with re-charging all the time.

My home brew light is 2xP4's running at 1A off 7.2V batteries. Thats plenty to see by for me ... just need a good dynamo to power it

Posted 1 year ago #
trout - Member

Dyno hub is somthing I have been looking at as there has been a lot going on with them in the diy forums
I just need to get my hands on one to have a mess with
I know a couple of my kits have gone to dyno users. just cant remember who they are.

anyone got links to good dyno hubs suitable for offroad or on road

Posted 1 year ago #
avdave2 - Member

This might be helpful with hub info and there are other links to sites in English. The Peter White site has a lot of information that might be useful.

Posted 1 year ago #
lipseal - Member

I'm sure bobblehat got a dynamo light/ kit.

Posted 1 year ago #