So the answer seems to be stop riding so quickly, and let the chubsters go first down all the hills?

I love the chubsters, they make me look good.

The right course and climbing is good. maybe not to watch,

I think you just thought that out loud 🙂

We ran an uphill race for the first time ever this year in January.

It was fifteen minutes of pain for me, just over ten for the winner, but was a lot of fun and then we had the ride back down.

Keighley gate: from Ilkley college to the masts if anyone wants to join us un future

Just to add weight to my no depth in british xc I looked at the world xc rankings (yes I know that there could be some great riders that are missing because of the point system, but its a good gauge) and compared them to the downhill world rankings:
Elite xc mens we have: 4 ranked men in the top 200
Elite xc womens we have: 6 ranked in the top 200 (most a fair way down the rankings)
Elite DH mens we have: 26 ranked in the 200 (with a huge presence up the top of the board)
Elite womens DH we have: 11 in the 200 (again with most of them coming at the top of the board.
(makes great reading on the downhill side!!! very impressive)

Plus it I do think it’s a shame that we have lost a number of top xc men, as njee20 said quite some time ago, to the road. Glad that they can get sponsors for themselves but it’s not great for xc. Personally I loved seeing Ian Wilkinson ride, a really great character. My best memory from the fort william world championships was Wilko riding out of his skin, yes he wasn’t challenging for the lead but was really pushing himself. And then doing his superman across the line! Still doing it on the road, but sad that he’s gone for now at least, from mountain biking, when his aim was to make it to the London Olympics, not really going to happen now.

Sancho – Member
Having done some xc racing the complaints ive come across are that riders run sections rather than ride them, simply because its quicker, but if you were penalised for running then the whole idea is that a more skilled rider gains advantage. thus equalizing the skill/fitness a bit.

So you would rather the less skilled rider rode a difficult section with the pssibility of falling and injuring themselves?

many years ago I had the same discussion re a section of a race route our club used to organise. It was a very steep rut with lots of roots(rigid/canti/v brake days) It was not called the Widow Maker for no reason!! There were the guys who were in the “it`s a race so it must be hard” camp and some of us who were in the ” it is just plain daft and putting people off” camp. On a race day(route was used 3yrs running) the top riders were the ones more likely to get off and run down the hill. Why?? The reason they gave was that falling off and potentially losing points may cost them the championship.
I have never raced and am never likely to and after the crap we had to put up with from some riders I have no wish to get involved in the race scene again as an organiser.
I do think that there is room for grassroots racing and that courses should be set accordingly. Too many organisers lose the plot and want to make their tracks `arder than A.B.Cs race. Just my tuppence worth.
🙄

There is a good reason why a lot of young people regardless of what sport they participate in drop off the radar and that is their parents may not be able to support them any more. I remember travelling the country for a few years with my son when he was into rowing. Something I could not sustain 🙄
Someone mentioned Gareth Montgomery. I rode with Gareth when he was around 10yrs old, his dad and older brother who was also a good rider. There were quite a few young riders around at that time and they all mostly had parents who were into biking and willing to travel as far as was needed to allow their kids to participate in races. Living in SW Scotland means travelling North or South into England at some considerable expense to parents.
There are currently 3 teenagers from the same area as Gareth competing on the circuit supported by their parents. Ross Green, Jenna and Ryan Fenwick. How long they can keep it up, who knows 💡

how do people feel about this;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8aUQVidVDg&feature=related

I mean I think its great

the good riders gained a massive advantage.

The organisers should put tape out to keep the dickhead supporters off the racing line and the riders should learn how to ride.

Plus the future of the sport doesn’t need to just come from youth riders, hence why I think the lack of grass routes/local races is a problem. There could easily be someone out there that is world class potential but just needs an opportunity to have a go. A national level race is not always the best place for that, it’s not a bad place, but when I started out I remember looking at national level races and being a bit scared to enter.

you should organise one/ a series, then there will be local grass roots events, if more racers did this there would be a healthy XC racing calendar everywhere like there is for road and TT

events don’t just magic out of thin air 😉

Sancho – Member
how do people feel about this;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8aUQVidVDg&feature=related

I mean I think its great

that video gets used as a “what not to do” on the BC MTBXC commissaires course

if you want your race to look like that then go for it

the good riders gained a massive advantage.

a lot of it was luck as well with random spectators everywhere causing chaos

but go for it if you are keen

If you want to reward skilled riders you put sections in that take a level of skill to ride and a chicken run that takes longer – no running down the difficult route allowed.

the only point i have to make is that I watched my first XC race last weekend. Kullhavy won. boring.

CX is so good to ride but so bad to watch. it’s not the coverage to blame but the lack of energy/skill/excitement. i can be excited when i ride XC BUT watching it… no!

i do of course admire the fitness of all the riders that raced on said freecaster live event but – how boring? lots!

watching downhill, wow.

Danny Hart or Kullhavy? Honestly?

Chubby baggy suited clowns, porting huge camelbaks around, filled with sports drinks, first aid kits, energy bars, wearing the latest colours, sporting this seasons helmet du jour, with gps tracking in case we get lost, out for 5 hours, actually riding for 2, as we stop every 10minutes because Jason and Amanda are new to this…
It’s not a sport, its a jeffing mobile dinner party.

Nice. And often true.

XC racing is painful and you dont get many hours of riding for your cash plus chance of being shouted at by someone, nasty pile ups at first narrow point, having descents ruined by numpties and so on all put people off. To feel vaguely competitive you need a light bike that somewhat contradicts trends in general trail bikes where 120-160 mm travel and 27-30 lbs weight is now the norm.

That said Thetford and Gorrick pretty much sell out all winter and Beastway does quite well despite being in a hopeless location.

That BUCS is utter ****, Fun for a one off that’s about it.

Anyway further to me wanting to run an XC race, it looks like we can get a semi permanent course.
It’s a flat course, but classic in the way it turns from open field to tight woodland single track and back again.
don simon, I think I’d still go for counting the first three only –
Seniors all
Women
Juniors
Vets
When I race in the vet on the road that all they do, I’ll still have an idea of where I came and who was in front of me.
It’ll be interseting to see if there is a market for cheap basic XC racing. I’m thinking of winter Sundays and summer evening.

robsoctance, yes XC is by and large boring to watch, but imo DH is no better, too slow and i don’t find any sport that has only one person on course interesting.

Oldgit, i personally think there is a market for a short course cheap midweek race series. The only question is what is your catchment area. Can you get enough riders to cover costs and make it a race.

mrmo
I’d hope to get the Woburn area riders racing. There are several MTB clubs in the area, add the roadies and the unattached and we should have enough.
I’d want it to fit into the £5 mark as our only real cost would be insurance.
A gym owns the land and considers it free advertising, plus they offer discounted membership to anyone riding. I’m also hoping the appeal of a gym, pool, sauna and cafe afterwards might be a draw.
AFAIK all we need first aid wise is someone qualified, which we have several of.

Insurance wise, might be worth talking to the Gorrick folk, as they have a cheaper and (IMO) better option than BC currently offer… It’ll help keep your costs down….

One thing that has just crossed my mind that maybe has already been mentioned.
All these innovative ideas for different formats of XC to give riders an allegdly more level playing field – chicken runs, time penalties etc. have one thing still in common with a xc – A winner.
In normal xc – 100 people enter, 1 wins a few get close, the rest race against who’s ever near by.
In all these variations – 100 people enter, 1 wins, a few get close, the rest race against who’s ever near by.
If you’ve got 100 people in a race you’ve got a 1 in 100 chance of winning. Changing rules hasn’t made anything more inclusive, or increased and individuals chance of winning.

Danny Hart or Kullhavy? Honestly?

I don’t think anyone has said that it’s interesting to watch, let alone compared to DH, I don’t mind watching either, but I couldn’t spend every weekend doing it! It’s a bit like comparing the 100m to a marathon though, 4 minutes vs 2 hours. Still, that wasn’t the point!

Good shout about Gorrick, suspect Jon would be willing to help – you’re not treading on their toes after all 🙂

100m to a marathon though, 4 minutes vs 2 hours

4 mins for a 100m?. No wonder your not a sprinter 🙂

Haha! You know what I meant, DH is 4 minutes, XC 2 hours. So really it’s like the 1500m to a marathon, but that’s less valid, as both are really boring to watch, even I can’t get bored during the 100m!

An interesting thread so far.

But, this weird idea that XC races are full of roadies out for a day in the mud with no skill is quite frankly bollocks.

I’ve done a few races of various formats – from DH oriented enduros, to 10 hr races and proper XC.

XC was by far the hardest. You need to be both fit and skillful to win an XC race.

If “skillful” riders want to do better then they need to be fitter. Its a simple as that (and I am firmly in the need to get fitter category). The idea that bunches of technically capable riders are being held up behind XC whippets mincing down descents is pure fantasy. The good XC guys are also flying down the technical bits on their race bikes

I rode my Blur LT round the course at Ten Under the Ben and yes if I had Trek Top Fuel I might have been a bit faster on the climbs but if I’d put a few more hours in training I would have been a whole heap faster. I was occasionally frustrated by catching people on singletrack sections only to see them disapear up the fireroad. But really its down to me, if I had been fitter I would have been as fast (or faster) on the fireroad and still been quick on the singletrack (like the guys who were winning)

The idea that bunches of technically capable riders are being held up behind XC whippets mincing down descents is pure fantasy.

I’m not sure where anyone has said that?

All the people I’ve ridden with who’ve raced XC at a decent level were very very good in terms of all round bike/technical skills – but people walking/running the technical sections (for whatever reason) just looks bad – if people want the sport to develop then the image is important surely?

One of the best XC races I watched was from Australia where you had multiple lines of differing technicality.

if people want the sport to develop then the image is important surely?

No.
Sport is sport.

No.
Sport is sport.

Hmmm, so people are concerned about the lack of enthusiasm for XC racing, but the image isn’t important? Ok then…

If you want to reward skilled riders you put sections in that take a level of skill to ride and a chicken run that takes longer – no running down the difficult route allowed.

How do you police that though? What if someone tries the hard route and fails, are they then not allowed to get off? It’s impossible to implement such sanctions.

people walking/running the technical sections (for whatever reason) just looks bad – if people want the sport to develop then the image is important surely?

What about walking up the climbs though? There seems a huge sticking point about not letting people walk down the descents, but what about walking up the climbs, where it’s far more prevalant? Should that be banned? Should we penalise people for dabbing?

I don’t get this “lack of grass routes racing is a problem”. In the south east we have

– SUmmit racing
– Eastway
– RATS

all running smaller local races series through the summer. I probably missed some. The people who runs these must take great credit for the effort they put in.

My mid week mtb club ride is typically for me a sufferfest and I am an experienced racer. There are clubs out there.

But given the fluctuation in numbers I just don’t think that the average trail rider is interested in going through the pain of racing once they know how hard it is.

Seem to be tying yourselves up in knots, attempting to use the course to modify the riders behaviour to fulfil some pre-ordained ideal, as well as trying to reduce the impact of fitness, and allow ‘skillz’ to be the deciding factor. Nevermind that the more you specify a particular style of tech section, the fewer venues become suitable, as if finding them isn’t already a struggle.

I rode the first UK Grundig race at Strathpeffer; a 16 mile loop that ended up being about 10 miles of running because of the torrential rain and epic conditions, but John Tomac and Thomas Friskneckt seemed ok with it.

The problem is not about ‘Oh the fit boys go too fast’, or ‘The tech sections are too techy or not techy enough’, it’s about the people who ride mountain bikes today; they don’t do racing, they do drive to place, ride/push big bikes slowly up and come down fast then repeat until cake, then drive home.

It’s not really a sport for most, it’s a leisure activity and there’s nothing wrong with that apart from upsetting old gimmers like me.

How do you police that though? What if someone tries the hard route and fails

You ride over them of course 😛

jumble, you may be in the fortunate position of having a number of series to pick from. Now look beyond the SE. What local series exists in the midlands, south wales, etc. look at Bristol or Birmingham reasonably sized cities what is there on a regular basis?

What about walking up the climbs though? There seems a huge sticking point about not letting people walk down the descents, but what about walking up the climbs, where it’s far more prevalant? Should that be banned? Should we penalise people for dabbing?

seriously Njee, the problem is not riders walking/running difficult bits, it’s riders breaking the rules while gettin off/on and walking/running, since you seem ignorant to this rule despite being show it in the other thread, let me remind you again.
[]8.3.8 A rider must act in a polite manner at all times and
permit any faster rider to overtake without obstructing.

cx is boring to watch

id say you’ve never watched a super prestige in the middle of november….

xc is boring to watch

dont watch it then and go race it .
People complain about ” not being techy enough ” im fed up of 75 % of the stw community being totall trols with the technical capabilities of 5 year old even when padded up on 6inch “trail bikes- read not fit enough to ride fast up the hills and cannot control a light,short travel bike fast down hills”. Me and Nj20 both race at a pretty good level,ride everything that is faster to ride but when you need to run to do well i get off my effing saddle and run.Racing is about speed between two points not the etiquet of giving people who ride stuff particularly credit. I mean honestly im not listening to the rubbish some people spout over things that they cannot comment on because they are either ill informed or have inflated views of yourself.
happy happy times and long live gb xc
peace and love

im fed up of 75 % of the stw community being totall trols with the technical capabilities of 5 year old even when padded up on 6inch “trail bikes

There’s a lot of hatred in this thread for people who ride 6″ trail bikes isn’t there? Pretty sad really – ironic too people complain about those who ignorantly slag off XC whippets then proceed to do exactly the same about others.

BTW I seem to remember seeing a somewhat critical video posted by a certain former Scottish XC champion showing people walking down not very difficult tech sections in a race. But I guess he is just ill-informed too eh?

The problem is not about ‘Oh the fit boys go too fast’, or ‘The tech sections are too techy or not techy enough’, it’s about the people who ride mountain bikes today; they don’t do racing, they do drive to place, ride/push big bikes slowly up and come down fast then repeat until cake, then drive home.

Is this actually a problem though? I mean clearly people like this aren’t going to be the next generation of top XC riders, but then it seems highly unlikely that they would have been anyway. There are still plenty of people who like racing, I don’t see that the existence of the more recreational riders makes any difference.

seriously Njee, the problem is not riders walking/running difficult bits, it’s riders breaking the rules while gettin off/on and walking/running, since you seem ignorant to this rule despite being show it in the other thread, let me remind you again.
[]8.3.8 A rider must act in a polite manner at all times and
permit any faster rider to overtake without obstructing.

That’s in the UCI rule book, any race not run under BC rules doesn’t technically have to include that, but yes it’s common courtesy.

I’m not ignorant to the rule in the least, show me where that’s the case? I agree that it’s a problem.

However, the problem that refers to is people being in the way, not people walking. Technically, a slower rider is obstructing quicker ones, and quite possibly obstructing people running, so the whole obstructing riders thing is a totally different issue to the one that is being discussed; which is stopping people running because it looks uncool.

Show me the rule which says you can’t get off the bike?

no im sure if youve won scottish xc your more than welcome to comment but i just feel that the capable good xc riders are tarred with the rep that xc is boring and no one can ride owt.
the hated hate the haters as they say…

I think part of the issue is that people actually have jobs and families. Racing hurts and things break but there will come a point when going to work on Monday or being fit for the next race will out way the risks of riding something.

Design a course to the level of the riders, if your aiming for pros, Champery is acceptable, but for a weekly evening series you have to ask if it is?

back to the o-p:

…Why are we so rubbish (at xc racing) when in the early 90’s the uk was a force to be reckoned with…?

was it though?

david baker.

tim gould.

caroline alexander.

and?
.
.
.
er…?

i’m going to blame lack of space/unwilling landowners for the disparity between the success of british Dh racers vs british xc racers.

there are thousands of awesome dh tracks hidden in quiet corners of fields/forests/back gardens/allotments all over britain.

you need a lot more space for good xc course.

oh, and Dh racing looks like fun. perhaps xc courses need to be made much more difficult. with features/lines that offer big advantages* to riders who take them on/have the skill.

(*i’m thinking minutes, not seconds)

well said mrmo.