I’ve been baking my own bread for a few weeks now, mainly through trial and error. I found a fairly good comparison of recipes on the guardian website, then gave up after they all failed, and am currently sticking with a good waitrose recipe (http://www.waitrose.com/recipe/Oaty_Wholemeal_Bread.aspx) that seems to work well.

Thing is, with all these different recipes I’m getting fairly dry bread; this week I intentionally left a stickier dough while kneading, but still ended up with the same dry crumb to the bread.
Soo… what am I doing wrong and how can I fix it?
Ta

Are you using a machine or just oven and airing cupboard?

An oven and just proving in the kitchen.

Strange, I’ve never had a problem with dry bread, and I normally just estimate amounts.
Have you tried a second rising? Knead the dough like like in the recipe but leave it to rise in the mixing bowl (cover with a damp towel). Once it’s risen give it a very gentle knead, then shape it or put it in a tin, and leave to rise the second time. Then bake.
Not sure if this makes a difference, but I usually preheat the oven to max, then turn it down to 190-200C after putting the bread in.

I used to have dry bread but no more! The secret is to keep working the dough for a long time (minimum 15 minutes) while not be tempted by adding any extra flour to the dough because it looks sticky as more flour equals drier bread. Instead, by working the dough the liquid is slowly absorbed while you are working it. I use 600 mL water or milk to which I add 1.3 L flour, 3 tablespoons of salt, yeast (fresh if you can find it, sometimes Morrisons has it) and a glug of olive oil. This gives a very soft dough which is best baked in a bread tin, but the bread is very nice and moist.

Oh forgot to say, you will need to leave it to prove first for 1 hour and then of another 30-45 minutes (depending on how warm your kitchen is), otherwise it will be too dense and not light and fluffy!

My recipe:

500g white flour (I use Allinson’s bakers grade)
1 sachet yeast
10g salt
350g Luke warm water (230g cold, the rest freshly boiled)

(Weigh the water too!)

Knead, rise then prove before oven. Remember that wholemeal may need more water. Never add more flour apart from a light dusting on the table after kneading/stretching as you bring it into a ball for rising.

I’m far from an expert but, I suspect you need to knead the crap out of it rather than just mix it. Something has to build up – gluten? Maybe.

that waitrose bread recipe looks like it would give a very dry crumb, maybe try and mix of wholemeal and white flour. also some whole grain flours can give a bread that turns almost rock hard after it cools.

also you could add even more water but it is very messy when you start the kneeding process but as the glunten works up it should become more managable, but sometime it seems like that point will never come.

Been a while since I made any but ….. mixed ingredients (flour, water, yeast, maybe “improvers”) and then kneaded like my life depended on it. I would summise that if you think it’s dry then it needs more water? Never had dry bread but found that eaten fresh is was marvellous but didn’t last long.

Do you use packet yeast or the stuff you add to water?? Sorry can’t remember the differences but packet yeast has added stuff?

Dried yeast, but activating it in water first does the trick.

So it sounds like:
Kneading it more (I’ve been doing it for about 10 minutes)
A second knead
Mixing in some white with the brown flower
Possibly the baking temperature
could work.

I think with the actual amounts of flour and water in the mix you get a pretty good feel for what’s the right amount (am I wrong?). As in, you can see if it’s too sticky, and obviously can tell if it’s too dry. Kneading it while sticky has always been a problem for me though, and I’ve made an effort to cut down on the amount of flour I use to stop it sticking to the bench.

I make mine with a combination of flours:

1lb strong white
1lb wholemeal
1lb white breadflour

I stick in some lukewarm water and two 7g sachets of dried yeast (local shop sells crap yeast). I estimate the water and it always starts of really sloppy but the more it is kneaded the more the water is worked out. I judge it by checking how tacky the dough feels, if you finish with a bowl thats clean again then its a good mix. About 20 mins of kneading in total and then leave to rise for an hour in a warm environment before baking for 25-30 mins.

Could you make two batches at a time? Make a batch and then split this in half. Then, for example, add the white flour to half of the batch. Bake both and see which you prefer. Maybe not much help as this will take time to go thru all the permutatitions!!!!

DaveGr – not a bad idea; took me a while to get to my current recipe, through some real duffers, and I think the 2 loaf in a batch idea is possbily the way forward. Although I still have to eat it once I’ve made it… 🙂

I am not normally given to obscenities, but FFS! By hand? You’ll break your wrist and not be able to ride your bike. It’s madness, I tell you.

Get a bread machine. Panasonic – accept no substitutes.

Then a bomb proof start point is:
1tsp yeast
250g white
250g wholemeal
20g oil
25g honey
1tsp salt
320g warm water

Got a great recipe that uses a “sponge” that you leave overnight. Delicious.

Agree with the fopster however would highly recommend this bad boy. Kitchenaid stand mixer. Zero effort dough kneading but also able to do a whole load of other kitchen tasks from mixing to mincing

either more water/fat, or less flour.

or,

could be that your oven’s temp is wrong, maybe check it with a thermometer?

Have had some great results with recipes from the Tassajara bread book

Looks like there is too little fat in the mix, try a couple of extra spoons of oil.
As stated above the dough needs knocking back after the first prove to remove stale gas and restart the fermentation process, this releases more water into the dough.
The yeast content may be a little low too for the flour bulk, try an extra 1/2 sachet of yeast and make sure it is a wet-use yeast not a rapid one designed to be mixed in dry.

Cloche or a big clay flowerpot to cook your bread in.

Just using wholemeal flour will result ina crumbly and slightly heavier texture. Try a 50/50 – wholemeal/white flour mix to see what that produces and then adjust the proportions later if you want more wholemeal. Make sure you use bread flour as the higher protein and gluten content will produce better results. Also don’t skip on the salt it helps “stretch” the gluten.

Finally, if kneading by hand you should knead the dough for about 15 minutes until it is elastic shiny. The wetter the dough you can work the better as the water in the dough is converted to steam when it cooks and this produces the holes in your bread. But it is more difficult to knead wetter dough by hand, much easier with a food mixer.

Started baking last year using this as my bible, it hasn’t let me down yet

Definite second for the River Cottage Bread book. Well worth the investment if you want to make *really* gooood bread.

The flour tortillas are just brilliant.

Wholemeal flour needs to have a very wet dough. IMO it’s best left almost as a sticky mass which you can stir (with a strong arm). Once it gets dry enough to be kneadable, it will be too dry, and will make a close crumbly bread.
Try and stick with the 100% wholemeal if you can. We mostly use Spelt flour these days which makes a lighter loaf despite 100%.

How are you proving it? The method you’re using benefits from proving in a warm temperature. I’ve baked a loaf by hand at least every 2 days for years now and, providing the dough has roughly the same consistency at the end of kneading I’ve found the proving conditions to be the most significant factor in the outcome.

In the summer, I prove my dough by leaving it in our oven-like conservatory but when it gets colder I switch the oven on for 5 mins just to make it pleasantly warm and prove in there. I’ve got a dual oven, so the proving isn’t affected by the heating up of the main oven.

My method is far from scientific – for a basic white loaf I use a 7g sachet of dried quick yeast, 6g salt, about 800g of decent flour (quality of flour makes a difference, but you probably know that already!) and some hand-warm water. I use a big mixing bowl that never gets washed, mix the dry ingredients together first, make a well for the water in the middle, mix in a circular motion with the one hand, adding water until the dough is sticky but coming away from the bowl with a bit of persistence. Tip it out, bit of additional flour to ‘clean’ the bowl, then stretch and knead for about 10 mins on the worktop, with the dough as wet as possible – I don’t mind if it sticks to my hands and the worktop for the first few mins, as long as wiping the main body of dough over the stuck bit brings it off.

Once I’m done kneading, I flour the bowl, make the dough into a ball, stick it back in the bowl, sprinkle flour on top then cover the bowl with a plastic carrier bag before putting it in the proving place for 45 mins. The bag keeps moisture in – I used to wrap it in a teatowel, but that absorbs moisture and makes the end result drier. When the 45 mins is nearly up, I stick on the main oven to the max temperature (I think its about 250, fan-assisted) and leave it to heat up for about 10 mins. I bake loaves on a stone, which is left in the oven to heat up. When the oven’s ready, I tip the dough onto the worktop, bash the air out then quickly as possible shape it, bit of flour if its too sticky, then get it onto the stone in the oven. 30 mins later its done.

I don’t think the amount of yeast or proving temperature will make too much difference- it’ll just take longer to rise. A slower rise is meant to improve the texture- if you want bread first thing in the morning you can do the second proving overnight somewhere cool (e.g. fridge), then pop it into the oven as soon as you get up.

So knocking it back could be key too – will check that.

mountaincarrot – Member

Wholemeal flour needs to have a very wet dough. IMO it’s best left almost as a sticky mass which you can stir (with a strong arm). Once it gets dry enough to be kneadable, it will be too dry, and will make a close crumbly bread.
Try and stick with the 100% wholemeal if you can. We mostly use Spelt flour these days which makes a lighter loaf despite 100%.

That all sounds reasonable, but are you suggesting that you don’t knead your dough at all? Will stirring work the dough enough to get the gluten sufficiently worked?

And Fopster – I kinda agree, but on the offchance this is just a fad, I don’t want to be left with a £150 kitchen gadget I don’t use! 😐

nicko

Know what you mean about an expensive fad gadget (wasn’t there a post about band names earlier today..?). However, nowhere near £150 (my basic model Panasonic was £70 off Amazon). At end of day, the easier it is the more likely it is you’ll bother. I can set a loaf up with start button pressed in less than five minutes, and if you want to get fancy you can just do a dough cycle then take dough out, knock back and shape before oven baking. Best kitchen gadget ever, and I think bread making is the next BBQ for “blokes” cooking. You can even take the machine apart and fix it – who could ask for more…

My Grans Recipe

500g strong white flour , plus extra for dusting
7g sachet fast-action dried yeast
1 tsp salt
up to 350ml lukewarm water
a little sunflower oil , for greasing

Make the dough by tipping the flour, yeast and salt into a large bowl and making a well in the middle. Pour in most of the water and use your fingers or a wooden spoon to mix the flour and water together until combined to a slightly wet, pillowy, workable dough – add a splash more water if necessary. Tip the dough onto a lightly floured surface and knead for at least 10 mins until smooth and elastic. This can also be done in a tabletop mixer with a dough hook. Place the dough in a clean oiled bowl, cover with cling film and leave to rise until doubled in size. Heat oven to 220C/fan 200C/gas 7. Start by pouring a little of the warmed oil into your hands (always check the temperature of the oil before hand to prevent burns).

Rub your hands together, and place a hand on each breast, moving your right hand in a clockwise direction and your left hand in a counter clockwise direction. Massage the breasts in circles for at least 10 minutes. Now focus on one breast at a time, moving from the nipple outwards towards the shoulder keeping the energies circulating around the body. Lavish love and attention to each breast for about 5-10 minutes. Do not forget or neglect the very sensitive skin underneath and above the breasts. Make a large circular massage motion from under the breast, up and around the top part of the breast under the collar bone. End the breast massage by placing each hand on each breast again, the right hand moving clockwise direction and the left hand moving in an anticlockwise direction. Do this for 5-10 minutes. Finally place one or both hands gently between the breasts just above the heart. Close your eyes and imagine love energy from your heart moving down your arm into your hand(s) and into your lover’s heart. Co-ordinate your breathing to deepen intimacy. Do this for about 5 minutes. Knock back the dough by tipping it back onto a floured surface and pushing the air out. Mould the dough into a rugby ball shape that will fit a 900g loaf tin and place in the tin. Cover with a clean tea towel and leave to prove for 30 mins. Dust the top of the loaf with a little more flour and slash the top with a sharp knife if you want. Bake the bread for 15 mins, then reduce the heat to 190C/fan 170C/gas 5 and continue to bake for 30 mins until the loaf sounds hollow when removed from the tin and tapped on the base. Leave the bread on a wire rack to cool completely. The loaf will stay fresh in an airtight container for 3 days or can be frozen for 1 month.

Thanks KT, that’s great, but wtf is this:

Start by pouring a little of the warmed oil into your hands (always check the temperature of the oil before hand to prevent burns).

Rub your hands together, and place a hand on each breast, moving your right hand in a clockwise direction and your left hand in a counter clockwise direction. Massage the breasts in circles for at least 10 minutes. Now focus on one breast at a time, moving from the nipple outwards towards the shoulder keeping the energies circulating around the body. Lavish love and attention to each breast for about 5-10 minutes. Do not forget or neglect the very sensitive skin underneath and above the breasts. Make a large circular massage motion from under the breast, up and around the top part of the breast under the collar bone. End the breast massage by placing each hand on each breast again, the right hand moving clockwise direction and the left hand moving in an anticlockwise direction. Do this for 5-10 minutes. Finally place one or both hands gently between the breasts just above the heart. Close your eyes and imagine love energy from your heart moving down your arm into your hand(s) and into your lover’s heart. Co-ordinate your breathing to deepen intimacy. Do this for about 5 minutes. 😯
If your gran really has that as her bread recipe, I’m a little worried…

😀 If you like that you should try her cottage pie