I stripped and rebuilt the lever on my 5 year old m4s. doddle.

Mmm, ive used shimano for a while, then i started having problems with a lack of power. 2 sets of deore, set of SLX and the rear of the saint M810. All seemed to suffer from contaminated pads, which turned out to be the hose joint leaking, and despite warranty replacements and assurances that the problem had been solved, the situation never improved and as a result my faith in shimano was dented somewhat. The last place i want doubts is the brakes. I’ve not suffered any problems since changing to Hope though, about 2 years all in. The shimano’s seemed to last about 6 months, although 1 very early pair of Deores are still okay.

Also, the tensile strength of Hope’s aluminium alloy blows the magnesium on your formula’s out the water

I’m not an engineer.

Hmmm….

Tom_W1987 – Member

Also, the tensile strength of Hope’s aluminium alloy blows the magnesium forgings on your formula’s out the water.

Eh, how much magnesium alloy do you think is in them?

mrmonkfinger – Member

The exact same could be said about their hubs – but how many hub manufacturers forge their hubs? Very very few. I’m not sure that is really very much of an issue.

It’s not an issue other than the weight and bulk of their brakes- my point is just that it’s seen as a selling point when it’s a low-performance option. Does look nice though.

(fwiw the Hope hubs are forged into a rough shape then machine cut/ finished, mix of the two)

Oh, and Formula parts? Common ones are available from CRC. Every bit for every half-recent model (Oro up) is available as a spare from Formula, and some bits for ancient models. They aren’t cheap, mind, but they’re easily available and ime you’re unlikely to need them (I did have to buy a part for a 2007 Oro last year but I’ll forgive them that…)

Mind you if I ever lose a The One bar bolt I don’t think I’ll be buying a replacement from Formula!

I’d love to try Hope as like the looks and the idea of perceived better feel. An old set of knackered elixir r have better feel than my latest Deore and SLX in the car part test. Find the Shimano a bit grabby and lacking feel on slow techy stuff, but fine on faster singletrack.

However, I just can’t ignore the price of Shimano. Yes, Hope can be serviced with a supply of parts, but this still obviously costs money and you can buy a whole Deore caliper for what, £25?

Shimano brakes and feel is similar to how most folks lurch to halt in a hire car when using the brakes for the first time. Its just what you are used to. The current Shimano brakes take a little recalibration to get familiar with and then they have plenty of feel.

But as are talking about feel and looks it is just preference.

Northwind, CNC from billet is good enough for Brembo’s Moto GP spec calipers. Maybe, just maybe…there’s more to a brake than what process has been used to make the caliper.

If you’re unlikely to need formula spare parts why did all of mine die? 5-6 dying compared to zero for our Hopes is going beyond being a fluke. I remember at least 2 K18s, 2 K24’s and 1 set of early The Ones

I have just changed from Hope M4’s to Shimano Zee’s. First time I used the Zee’s was at Antur Stiniog, I can honestly say that the Shimano’s felt better after one run down, not fully bed in than my Hope’s ever did.

I had to bleed the Shimano’s before I rode the bike as the cables were far too long for my small bike, they were a breeze to bleed, and I love the fact that they’re mineral oil, a lot less to worry about when bleeding.

I used to love my Hope’s, but having to bleed them 3 times in the Alps this year due to loosing feel significantly ate into my riding time, and I was not happy about that! My rear brake had what I assume was an air bubble than no amount of bleeding seemed to help with.. their days were numbered after that!

How often do you see posts like some of the above?

‘I’ve been using ‘blah’ brakes for 5 years, and then I bought ‘blah’ brakes and they are so much better!’

Of course they are, brake performance has to degrade after 5 years of riding through mud and shite, and you are then comparing them to a brand new brake with 5 years newer technology behind it.

Are you suggesting I don’t service my brakes?

I take acceptance to that remark!

Then again karen….a lot of people have been saying there are big problems with the zees.

My v2s feel as good as my mates zees anyhow.

Tom_W1987 – Member

Maybe, just maybe…there’s more to a brake than what process has been used to make the caliper.

Of course there is 😕 But it is obviously a factor, it’s the reason Hope master cylinders are relatively bulky and heavy. But this is still about the fact that people perceive it as a selling point, when there’s better ways to do it.

Oh, incidentally the Brembo master cylinders and levers you mentioned are forged then machined. The calipers aren’t really comparable to pushbike parts, different decision making process for much larger parts.

Had Hopes for years, then one day tried some of the new XT’s… now all my bikes are running Shimano. My cheap deore’s even laugh in the face of the Hope’s.

Are you suggesting I don’t service my brakes?

I take acceptance to that remark!

Oops! Sorry Rich, not aimed at you!.

No only a couple of the callipers are forged then cnc’d. The rest are cnc’d from normal billet.

I dont understand the hate for avids. I bought a set of 2013 codes and they are the best brakes ive ever tried. Thats after a few hope tech pairs and shimano deores/xt and saint m820 on my other bike. They are super strong with lovely modulation and look good too 🙂

I’ve got a set of pre-Evo X2s which have been completely problem-free for the three years I’ve had them. I don’t pretend they’re the best brakes ever, but they work and buying from Hope supports (very) local industry. My mate is running a set of C2s and a set of M4s which he’s had no problems with either.

The Avids I had before were more powerful, but howled like dying dogs and the back one wouldn’t stay bled, which DJ’s in Rammy reckoned was a common fault.

UNTIL you have to service them.

Which you will have to do. Sooner rather than later.

And find out that servicing Shimano brakes means buying new ones.

Also, don’t use them in freezing conditions, or they will break (not brake) even faster. Same goes with their shifters.

TBH I’m sworn off of anything Shimano now, maybe apart from their cassettes. I still have a rear derailleur and shifter, that seems to be ok but the shifter was already replaced under warranty once (XTR).

As far as their brake effectiveness goes, they work fine when they are working, but no better than the Hopes. Anyone thinking they are magic is just seeing a ‘new thing’ placebo effect, or don’t know how to set up the Hopes properly.

TBH I’m sworn off of anything Shimano now, maybe apart from their cassettes. I still have a real dérailleur and shifter, that seems to be ok but the shifter was already replaced under warranty once (XTR).

Funnily enough, the bloke in the LBS reckons Shimano shifters are more reliable than SRAM in the long term.

I’ve ridden both, both are good.

I spoke to a chap at Hope yesterday while he had my brakes on his desk in front of him, try doing that with Shimano. To Hope I’m a customer, to Shimano I’m a statistic.

But if someone wants to get wheels on the dirt at lowest possible entry cost, Shimano are fine.

nikk – Member

And find out that servicing Shimano brakes means buying new ones.

Also, don’t use them in freezing conditions, or they will break (not brake) even faster

On the first- not true, you don’t need to replace a whole brake, you can’t buy individual parts but you can buy calipers or levers. Not ideal but the price of a Shimano caliper is around £25, which comes with a set of pads worth about a tenner- the price of a Hope caliper seal kit is £4, so it’s only £10 difference. Likewise, an XT lever, £32 so not that massive much difference from a Hope lever rebuild kit for £7. Lost against the original spend.

On the second, not sure where you get this idea from, Shimano are no more vulnerable than anything else… Sub-zero conditions are hard on any brakes, lots of sticky debris and the seals get stiffer and harder with cold, but I used my old XTs in freezing conditions a lot more than most people would (I like winter) and they never missed a beat.

I do wonder if a lot of the this brake was rubbish the new brake i replaced it with is amazing.
Is due to the fact brakes a lot of the time, are fitted and the brake fluid isn’t changed, until it has damaged the brake with age.. Not to mention having a lower boiling point, and loosing the lever feel.
Hardly surprising then a new brake feels better.

not sure where you get this idea from, Shimano are no more vulnerable than anything else… Sub-zero conditions are hard on any brakes, lots of sticky debris and the seals get stiffer and harder with cold, but I used my old XTs in freezing conditions a lot more than most people would (I like winter) and they never missed a beat.

Both my Shimanos broke on the same ride, freezing conditions (-5). Riding home down steep hills is fun with no brakes.

Also, the mineral oil fluid is rubbish, if you get it on your pads (as you will, because when the seals go, they spray a fine mist of it on them), the pads are a write off. You can’t clean them with anything, believe me, I tried.

the price of a Shimano caliper is around £25

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I suppose it is if you want to use the bottom of the range version all the time. Not so hot if your 1 1/2 year old XT / XTR calipers blow a seal though, is it? £100 or £150, against £8? What would you choose? Even £54 versus £8 is a no brainer. And you need the new pads, coz the old ones will be toast if they have Shimano oil on them.

Also, ecologically, morally, and from an engineering / self sufficiency perspective, it is just b#~~###s! Make the frickin seal replacements available Shimano!

Mrs S has Hope Mono Minis.

I’ve got SLX.

The Hope are 8 years old and have been totally, utterly reliable.
Get bled once a year.
Never been off the bike. Used in all manner of shite.

The Shimano (6 years old, replaced Hopes on a stolen bike) are far more powerful and I prefer the feel, but they aren’t as reliable.
The pistons semi-seize every winter and I have to take them off the bike, give them a fettle and put them back.
The rear piston is a little corroded and will never work properly again.

TBH, I’d be happy with either:
The Shimano feel better & are more powerful.
The Hopes are lighter, more reliable but have less power & feel.

However, Hope are made less than 20 miles from the front door.
I’d probably pay the extra & go for them again next time. 😐

Oh, not a Hope fanboi btw, the qr’s & seat clamps are appalling – I wouldn’t wish them on my worst enemy.

nikk – Member

I suppose it is if you want to use the bottom of the range version all the time. Not so hot if your 1 1/2 year old XT / XTR calipers blow a seal though, is it?

The seals are identical, so you buy a deore caliper and refit the seals to your expensive caliper. Think of it as really excessive packaging. Though, if your 1 and a half year old caliper pops a seal you’ll get it fixed on warranty obviously so it’s all a nonissue 😉

As for oil contamination, brake fluid contaminates pads very much the same. You actually can clean contaminated pads, or rather burn it off, but whether it’s dot 4 or mineral oil, you’re better to replace them.

I agree it’s poor that they don’t sell the seals separetely though, always been a frustration- but the real world impact isn’t that big, and their simplified supply chain is one of the things that passes back savings to the RRP.

The seals are identical, so you buy a deore caliper and refit the seals to your expensive caliper. Think of it as really excessive packaging.

I think I’d rather stab myself with a fork though 🙂

As for oil contamination, brake fluid contaminates pads very much the same. You actually can clean contaminated pads, or rather burn it off, but whether it’s dot 4 or mineral oil, you’re better to replace them.

Nope, not from my experience. I have extensive experience with trying to clean Shimano pads of the oil… isopropyl, meths, soap, burning, heating, cooking, boiling, brake cleaner, sanding, filing… all tried, NONE work.

For DOT 4, brake cleaner works fine.

I agree it’s poor that they don’t sell the seals separetely though, always been a frustration

It is more than that for me now, it is a reason not to buy them, and a reason to vocally dissuade others from doing so.

but the real world impact isn’t that big

Apart from non-functioning brakes that cost a lot to fix. Funnily enough, I am not keen on either of these things 😉

their simplified supply chain is one of the things that passes back savings to the RRP.

Their lack of parts availability is one of the things that passes cash back to Shimano. Apart from when I don’t buy their crap because I hate stuff that goes wrong and can’t be fixed.

nikk – Member

For DOT 4, brake cleaner works fine.

With light contamination, sure. With bad contamination, nope- burning it off or giving it a proper soak in isopropyl works but that also works with mineral oil. (at the risk of offending- just because you couldn’t get it to work doesn’t make it impossible, I’ve succesfully cleaned oil-fouled pads- but I rarely bother cleaning either Dot or mineral oil contaminated pads if they’re bad, it’s not really worth the investment of time)

nikk – Member

I think I’d rather stab myself with a fork though

But seriously, why? It’s very easy to do (and you’ll be doing the exact same to the other caliper anyway). Oh, and you get a new piston to boot. I don’t like the waste but that’s the only drawback.

and lastly

nikk – Member

cost a lot to fix.

But they don’t- you’re going round in circles, the price difference to fix blown caliper seals is about £10 in reality between Hope and Shimano, lever (unlikely to need done) is about £25 difference, and in both cases you also get useful spare parts (piston, spare lever body/blade in case of crash damage). So it’s really not a big difference once you get past the misunderstanding about higher end calipers.

just because you couldn’t get it to work doesn’t make it impossible

Sure, I mean, no one is perfect. But I’d consider myself reasonably mechanically / technically minded, and can assure you I gave it more than my best shot on many occasions. I tried most things at least twice.

you’re going round in circles, the price difference to fix blown caliper seals is about £10 in reality

But in reality, it is not. It is at best £54 versus £8.

If you have contaminated Shimano Pads, you’ll need a new set in any case.

Also, experience shows you’ll need them more than Hope seals. And the Shimano ones crap out in sub-zero temps – just at the point where cycling gets really fun again after all the wet.

So again I have to insist, Hope is better than Shimano in this instance. I would never buy Shimano brakes again, just totally and utterly sickened off them after years of howling brakes due to blown seals.

I am not a fan boy either… My new bike only has Hope brakes, I could have speced any other part in Hope as well, but went for various other bits (King, Cane Creek, Thompson, DT Swiss etc). I tend to be kinda obsessive about specing my parts. I would never spec everything in the same brand unless I thought it was the best at the price point – hence the mix/match approach. Very happy with everything I have chosen so far.

This idea that Shimano “crap out” in subzero temps, there’s too many people on here that know otherwise for that to hold water, likewise the thing with the pad contamination. “Happened to me” isn’t “will happen to you”, especially when you add a dose of “Didn’t happen to me”.

weird, my 5 year old none series shimano (445) brakes, never “froze” in minus temps? must of been faulty?

they did “semi” seize after 3 years of no maintenance, easy fixed?

so the cheapest brakes shimano offer, never went wrong in any real way, only bled twice in 5 years, after 4 winters and about 3000+ miles and so many pads, ONLY changed them due to the pivots in the levers were starting to wear.

got some XT’s now, and they are ace 🙂

Sounds like my Avid experience badbob.

YMMV…

still rather have shimano OR Hope, over Avids!

I’ve just replaced my Avid XX brakes with XTR (too good a deal to refuse and frankly listened to all the hype). The Shimanos are very powerful, very shiny and have dinky levers, but so far I think I prefer the feel of the Avids, which are a lot lighter and have been trouble free.

It’s easy to make sweeping generalisations about brakes, and set up is clearly key, but personal taste and experience is a huge factor. My personal experience of Avids has been excellent, but I would never go near a Hayes, didn’t get on with Martas and think that Hopes look home made (although I have them on my cross bike). First time for me with Shimanos, but I reckon I’ll adapt to them.

Personally I’d put Shimano brakes alongside Tektro.
But comparing Shimano to Hope’s! They’re a totally different class. The Hope’s make a mockery of the Shimano units.

As said before any brake will lock a wheel up but that’s irrelevant it’s about the delivery, adjustability, serviceability, reliability, spares availability……….
And the Hope sets win hands down plain to see.

If your budget doesn’t allow for proper brakes then fine,
Shimano offer a cheap alternative but somehow have managed to take the old adage “buy shite, buy twice” as a positive. 😀

spares availability of hope parts are for a reason 😉

badbob – Member
spares availability of hope parts are for a reason

Yes to keep a product in good working order over years of service, like any other decent respectable company regardless of industry!

Would you buy a car with no spares availability?

Hopes look home made

Seriously?

spares availability of hope parts are for a reason

Can’t say I’ve ever needed any – Avids on the other hand!

Had shimano on all our MTBs for at least 5 years. Never needed a spare part.

CaptainMainwaring – Do you work for Hope?

spectabilis – Member

Personally I’d put Shimano brakes alongside Tektro.
But comparing Shimano to Hope’s! They’re a totally different class. The Hope’s make a mockery of the Shimano units.

As said before any brake will lock a wheel up but that’s irrelevant it’s about the delivery, adjustability, serviceability, reliability, spares availability……….
And the Hope sets win hands down plain to see.

If your budget doesn’t allow for proper brakes then fine,
Shimano offer a cheap alternative but somehow have managed to take the old adage “buy shite, buy twice” as a positive.

Personally I’d put Hope brakes alongside Tektro.
But comparing Hope to Shimano’s! They’re a totally different class. The Shimano’s make a mockery of the Hope units.

As said before any brake will lock a wheel up but that’s irrelevant it’s about the delivery, adjustability, serviceability, reliability, spares availability……….
And the Shimano sets win hands down plain to see.

If your budget allows for expensive brakes then fine,
Hope offer an expensive alternative but somehow have managed to take the old adage “buy shite, buy twice” as a positive.

I’ve had most make of brake in the past few years. Just to show how personal something as clinical as a brake is, I hate Hope brakes as to me they look over engineered, and too big, I also found power to be lacking at 160mm rotors. I also don’t like the new Shimanos as they’re too on/off, but the Deore I could easily live with for £100 a set.

To make it even worse, I love Avid brakes. My X0 brakes feel amazing, modulate brilliantly, are super powerful and simple to bleed.

Magura Martas felt like the old Shimano XTs to me, the m770 series. Which I did really like.

Formula brakes just felt wooden to me, I’d lock the wheels without wanting to.

There. Spanner thrown in the works 😉

I totally understand others like different brakes, I just find it odd that people argue so vehemently about a brand that they pay money to use, not get paid to use. For £200 an end I’d expect the product to be nothing but excellent.