Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 41 total)
  • Braided hoses – worth it?
  • owainga
    Full Member

    About time I bled my brakes (Hope tech x2). I never bothered shortening the hoses when I got them due to a lack of time and the kit to bleed them. Since i’m going to be bleeding anyway I figure I may as well finally shorten the hoses and get rid of the extra flapping length. That got me thinking, I’d been considering going braided for the hoses so now’s as good a time as any. So, is it worth it?

    Cheers,
    -0-

    CaptainBudget
    Free Member

    On newer Hopes: no as they are already braided.

    Avid: no, they increase the power but kill the modulation as Avids rely on the hose expanding for it

    Shimano: depends, you loose a bit of modulation but the lever feels much nicer and you get more power. Some lower end brakes really benefit. 4-pot Saints are already too on/off, they’d become death-traps!

    Hayes: they’re already on/off so you might as well for the extra power

    Three_Fish
    Free Member

    On newer Hopes: no as they are already braided.

    Not all ‘newer’ Hopes have braided hoses, just the ones with, well, braided hoses. ‘Standard’ is still 5mm nylon hose.

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middling Edition

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middlin...
    Latest Singletrack Videos
    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    I have one brake with braided hose – makes zero difference as far as I can tell

    clubber
    Free Member

    Not for function. The difference is insignificant in the real world.

    Yes for looks and if you crash loads for slightly better crash resistance.

    I have a mix of plastic and braided on various bikes, some with both types and when riding you dong notice.

    DrDomRob
    Free Member

    My better half just asked me where you would put braided HORSES on a bicycle.

    I laughed. She now feels silly.

    Silly other half!!!

    spooky_b329
    Full Member

    I changed to braided when I wore through my rear hose on the swingarm. The main benefit for me is they are much more flexible, especially if you have the older 8mm hose (which you won’t on Tech x2’s) which was pretty stiff. I don’t think its worth it just as an upgrade, unless aesthetics are really important.

    takisawa2
    Full Member

    No. My 5yr old Juicy 5’s have more feel, better modulation & more power than the braided hose equipped Tech M4/X2 combo I have on my fs.

    Matt_SS_xc
    Full Member

    i have to disagree with the only for aesthetics comments.

    i have mono mini’s, probably 4 years old a had the standard 5mm nylon hoses. Fitted goodridge and it made an enormous difference, such better feel, i used to feel the flex and mushy-ness (yes that is a word) with the old hoses. Cant reccomend them enough!!

    spanishfly
    Free Member

    No but I still fit them

    clubber
    Free Member

    probably 4 years old a had the standard 5mm nylon hoses. Fitted goodridge and it made an enormous difference

    And when were they last flushed through with new fluid or fully bled before that?

    HeatherBash
    Free Member

    Rather unconvinced – have used them in the past and couldn’t tell the difference tbh. I think those that do are probably benefitting from having bled their brakes more than any real world performance benefits the braided hose offers

    clubber
    Free Member

    Exactly

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    My bike has braided on the front and not on the rear – no obvious difference

    transporter13
    Free Member

    the only time that braided hose are of benefit is when you are doing a lot of downhill stuff, where you’ll be heating up the fluid quite a bit and the hoses expanding..therefore reducing the brakes’ power

    Three_Fish
    Free Member

    the only time that braided hose are of benefit is when you are doing a lot of downhill stuff, where you’ll be heating up the fluid quite a bit and the hoses expanding..therefore reducing the brakes’ power

    I think you may be mistaken. The pistons (and pads) would have been forced out, jamming the brake on, long before this would happen.

    The benefit of braided hose is that it doesn’t expand anywhere near as much as nylon hose under normal braking pressure; therefore the brake is more efficient as energy is transferred directly to the pistons, rather than being taken away by the expansion of the hose. The shorter the system, the less this is noticeable; but on a rear brake, or even on a long travel fork, the difference is certainly perceivable. It’s not night and day, so to speak, but it’s there to be felt.

    Whether or not this improvement is one that is considered a benefit to everyone is a matter for each rider to decide. Whether or not it’s worth it in terms of economics is then between the rider and their wallet.

    james
    Free Member

    “My bike has braided on the front and not on the rear – no obvious difference”
    No difference between braided/non-braided front or no difference between braided front/non-braided rear?

    with non-braided front and rear it should be relatively easy to tell the front feels better than the rear? Or so I thought?. I thought it was down the longer length on the rear, so if I ever was to braid just one brake (no idea why) it would be the rear to try to get it match the feel of the front

    I’ve always wondered whether due to not being able to expand as much, the fluid would overheat quicker? Or realistically does it mean your brakes work better for longer, so you need to drag your brakes less as they got hot?

    clubber
    Free Member

    No obvious difference = pull the lever while actually riding and the bike slows. No obvious difference between the feel of the front and back. You can notice a slight difference in the car park though….

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    because I bought my brakes secondhand Ihave ended up with a front with braided adn a rear with ordinary. I can feel no noticeable difference

    A braided hose will make no difference to the power of the brake or of its resistance to heat. all it does is reduce the amount of swelling of the hose thus reducing the lever travel thus making the lever feel harder – in theory. It may also make the initial bite sharper In practice I cannot even feel that.

    Any pressurised fluid system such as a hydraulic brake the pressure equalises throughout the system so no matter how much expansion in the lines you get exactly the same pressure in the caliper as produced at the lever.

    Haze
    Full Member

    worth it?

    Yes, they look so much better…

    FuzzyWuzzy
    Full Member

    Worth it if you like the look and the fact they resist kinking/damage a bit more, you may as well by a power balance band instead if you want them for better performance though.

    MSP
    Full Member

    They are a bit better, not worth upgrading to in itself, but if a hose is damaged worth the extra couple of quid over replacing with standard hose.

    hilldodger
    Free Member

    Plus points – Look better (IMO), more resistant to damage, better feel to brakes (again IMO), bragging rights over plastic hosers 😉
    Minus points – slightly more awkward to trim, tighter fit in your hose guides

    Overall – I upgraded my X2’s to braided at the first bleed, faffed a bit fitting them but I can actually feel the difference – worth it? only you can say…..

    UrbanHiker
    Free Member

    So, just out of interest, for a friend you understand. Where would one pick up the cheapest braided hose?

    KINGTUT
    Free Member

    I’ve just removed the braided hoses from my hope minis, in the main to cut weight as the braided hoses are about 70g heavier than the nylon ones plus braided hoses look quite shit on a light XC bike, however I do actually prefer the feeling of the brakes with the nylon hose fitted, it’s not night and day but there is a definite difference but as above that could be down to the brakes being bled.

    Only drawback is that the nylon hoses kink really easily.

    hilldodger
    Free Member

    UrbanHiker – Member
    So, just out of interest, for a friend you understand. Where would one pick up the cheapest braided hose?

    3m of braided hose/£19.99 (plus extra for fittings) from the forums favourite purveyor of quality brake pads
    Fruity Goodness

    owainga
    Full Member

    Ok, looks like i’ll lay off on the braided hose for now at least since the benefits seem undecided at best.

    Next question:

    So what diameter line do I need for the bleed pipe? any good source? Hope doesn’t say.
    also, no old pads lying around, what makes a good spacer for the pistons?

    Cheers!

    Stuey01
    Free Member

    They look good init.

    Three_Fish
    Free Member

    The X2 should have the newer ‘drip-free’ nipple, s it’s a 3.5mm pipe you need. It’s about 90p per metre from B&Q.

    You don’t actually need a spacer for the pistons, just don’t pull the lever (too much) when the bleed nipple is closed. If you do want to put something in there, it just needs to be as wide, or wider, than the rotor slot in order to stop the pistons over-extending.

    Three_Fish
    Free Member

    Any pressurised fluid system such as a hydraulic brake the pressure equalises throughout the system so no matter how much expansion in the lines you get exactly the same pressure in the caliper as produced at the lever.

    So you think that a brake would be just as efficient if, say, a balloon was used to transfer force (even assuming infinite fluid supply and lever piston travel)? What is the factor that causes the hose to expand? What would happen to this factor if the transfer is unable to expand? Try a web search for “volumetric expansion in brake line”.

    With braided hose, rider input is transferred (more or less) directly to the caliper and the rider experiences feedback directly from the caliper; with standard hose, the rider experiences also feedback from an expanding brake line. Whether or not one can perceive this, or is interested or troubled by it, is a different matter; but that doesn’t remove the fact that it is there.

    The ideal solution would be a solid pipe; but this has obvious impracticalities, especially on an MTB.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    Three fish – yup.

    Pressure at the lever = pressure at the calliper. Always. No matter how much expansion in the hose. ( assuming you don’t run out of lever travel)

    So for the same pressure on the lever from your fingers you get the same braking force at the wheel.

    Braided hose will alter feel and feedback but not power – other than perhaps initial bite. ( which many folk mistake for outright power)

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    They don’t ‘kink’ like nylon hoses, I’ve yet to rupture a nylon hose but I suspect if I did it would be at one of the kinks.

    owainga
    Full Member

    TJ, your arguments about expansion and equal pressures is somewhat misleading.

    Hydraulics are based on the principle of an *incompressible* fluid moving a force from the master cylinder to the slave. Differences in piston size provide a multiplier the transferred force due to pressure being a function of force and area. Using a balloon for the hose, say, would reduce performance significantly due to a lot of force expanding the hose instead of acting on the other piston, hence braided hoses.

    EDIT: to expand on this, the pressure would indeed be equal, but due to expansion the absolute pressure transferrable would be less for a given lever travel due to the increase in area of the system.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    owwainga – sorry – wrong – the pressure remains the same at both ends of the hose thus the braking power remains the same.

    this is basic physics.

    owainga
    Full Member

    TJ: I’m aware of that. I edited my post before I saw your response to expand on my reasoning.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    Still wrong – the hose has no effect on the piston sizes. Nor on the pressure.

    you get more lever movement to get the same amount of braking effort but the pressures remain the same. A set amount of force applied to the lever will always give the same amount of pressure in the master cylinder will always equalise along the length of the hose will always give the same pressure in the calliper will always produce the same amount of braking force.

    The only thing that alters with the expansion of the hose is the lever travel

    owainga
    Full Member

    Precisely.

    So more level travel for the same braking force, combined with finite level travel (at least on all the brakes I have ever seen 😉 ) mean a decrease in absolute maximum braking force for the given system. My point about there being less force transferred for a given level travel is entirely supported by what you said (you said so yourself!), so i’m unsure why you still call it wrong: A given force will move the lever more with a more compressible system than for one with less, despite the braking effect at that force being the same.

    As for whether people prefer this effect on feel or not is personal; hence my original question about whether it was considered worth it.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    mean a decrease in absolute maximum braking force for the given system

    Only if the lever comes right back to the bar. Which it doesn’t with any brake hose I have used.

    Otherwise it remains the same braking force for the same amount of lever pressure and the same maximum braking force as that is limited by the strength of your hand ( but the wheel will lock first)

    Three_Fish
    Free Member

    so i’m unsure why you still call it wrong

    TandemJeremy doesn’t have the confidence to admit that he doesn’t understand, so he has to just keep on going. He relies on you giving up to “win” his argument.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    Threefish – I am correct here. This is simple and basic physics. I can admit when I am wrong and often do – its just I am correct on this one.

    You made a common misapprehension. Looks like owainga and I actually agree now – perhaps we were at cross purposes

    owainga A given force will move the lever more with a more compressible system than for one with less, despite the braking effect at that force being the same.

    Which is exactly waht I have been saying all along

Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 41 total)

The topic ‘Braided hoses – worth it?’ is closed to new replies.