My work friend wants to upgrade from his Marin Mount Vision 1998 to something intresting e.g a boutique brand, is he being silly, no i am not trolling just trying to give him an informed choice but in real terms is there any real advantages over Turners/oranges/and other small producers other than name to something like giants trances and treks or even Marins? All of the big brands seem good value for money a new bike for the price of a second hand frame, they seem to have excellent suspension systems…..so what is the view that will sway him either way

I would go as far to say that there is so little in difference between spesh and giant compared to orange and ventana, that it comes down to how much money you have and do you like the look of the bike. There are very few duds out there now.

I would say, a brand bike will be uglier, than a handmade bike, but be stronger.

however, are oranges still handmade in halifax? or is the design subbed out to foreign lands like the on ones?

my theorey (and it is only a theorey) is: building a frame by hand, the welder has an oppertunity to get it wrong with every frame.
if built by a robot, as long as the first job, where the robot is taught the frame, is welded properly, it will be repeated properly every time?

big companies like giant have more money to put into thier "maths" and R&D?

and of course, big companies buy thier OEM parts cheaper.
100 pairs of RSrevs for on one, will be more expensive than 5000 pairs for Giant?

the savings are passed onto you for sure.

err, Olly – all bikes are welded by hand.

I couldn't recommend anything other than a big-brand bike to anyone that asked for my opinion. If someone can actually justify a more boutique product they should know what they want enough to not really need my opinion.

I think he should buy which he likes to ride, no matter what name is on the badge.

Fashion victim.

+1jackthe dog.
if he is going to stray from the obvious then he should know what he wants and why.

Never had an issue with a mainstream bike brand.

Have had quality control issues with three out of four of the smaller brand bikes that I've owned – not what I ordered, mismatched crank lengths and two cases of Friday afternoon frame syndrome.

Next bike will be a Boardman, unless Asda can come out with something better for less money.

toy will find that most boutique brands now get their frames built in the far east with just "finishing" done in their country of origin.

A single factory will build frames for various comapnies. i.e Giant and mreida build spesh frames!!!

If value for money (and/or limited budget) is the main driver then go for a big brand, if he has money to burn and is heart set on a boutique brand, then go for that.

If he thinks a boutique brand will make him ride better (cos that's what all the marketing hype says) the only way he is going to find out that this is a fallacy is to buy one of each!

Orange Fives are welded in Halifax, if thats important

Are Orange boutique or are they just big manafacturer that cost a bit more?

IMHO buying a FS frame and building it with new stuff looks really expensive. But its not my money is it…….

Money is they key was do you work on the same bin lorry or adjacent trading screens?

/\

I was thinking something similar.
Orange….boutique???

For 99% of us mountain biking is a hobby, something we do for pleasure, the words "Justify" and "Need" shouldn't really come into it. If money's not an issue then what some-one buys is entirely at their own discretion.

I think most of us understand that there's not a great deal of difference between boutique stuff and assembly line bikes, but that's not really the point.

Well as he’s coming from a 12 year old “main stream” bike, I think perhaps he should find himself a 2009/2010 mount vision or similar for a test ride, not so much suggesting he should buy the same bike again but use it as a benchmark. To allow your friend to see how much mass produced bikes have come on in the last decade, there’s some very good deals to be had on mainstream bikes and they are generally a good platform for upgrading…

It’s also worth pointing out that the equipment fitted to most bikes comes from a pretty small pool of suppliers really, odds are your fork will come from Marz/Manitou/RS/Fox, your Drive train/brakes have a very high chance of coming almost entirely from either Shimano or SRAM your wheels will 90% likely use Mavic or Sun rims, there are obviously other choices but, really all you are getting with “Boutique” bikes is a different (more expensive) frame, everything that hangs off of it is pretty much of the same standard at any given price point, Mass produced bikes can win on “spec Vs price” as buying parts in larger quantities obviously brings cost benefits…

Perhaps it’s wiser to set brand and price to one side and look at the key numbers, geometry and weight will have a bigger effect on a frames ride than badges, try and get him to spend some time on different bikes at demo days or just borrow mates and see what geometry makes the biggest difference to his enjoyment…

At the end of the day though if He’s totally sold on a certain bike and can afford it then there’s nothing wrong with plumping for a “boutique” brand, it’s quite hard to buy a total lemon these days, and if he does go for an overpriced collection of tubes that turns out to be crap you can always just say “Told you so”…

Branding is 99% in the head IMO.

Difficult to avoid its effect though (says custim steel hardtail and Santa Cruz rider)

I have a fancy boutique Titus El Guapo. My answer would be (unfortunalty) no. Basically if you buy a good off the self bike it will match up pretty well to mine. But…… I built the bike how I wanted it with the parts I know I like to use. So I've got fairly high end stuff marta SL mags, Mavic SX's, Hammerschmidt, X0 and so on. Also I've got the forks I want with the correct spring for my weight, my shock was set up by TFtuned to be exaclty what I wanted and so it goes on. Obviously you can do this with an off the self bike, but sometimes you have to chuck perfectly good parts to do it or spend more upgrading them (and that how the dark road to boutique starts).

Is it better than a off the self thats a good few grand less, that'l be a nope, but it will have to be a pretty good off the self thats well set up as it does ride very well. However when I do upgrade I normally get good money for the stuff I move on, so it doesn't feel as bad.

Its nice to own something a bit different and I get a lot of people asking about it (which is nice if your a bit vain).

Mine dies look prettier……IMO

i have a 'boutique' frame, and i'd tell your friend to buy a boardman, unless he wants a hardtail, in which case he should buy a boardman, unless he wants a steel hardtail, in which case he should buy a genesis.

He is not a fashion victim but is bored of the beard and sandals tag, his driver is the bike will last him a decade and so a boutique brand will last longer……….i am unconvienced, nothing to do where the bike is made all bikes can fail guessing it is the support one gets that is the differnce, Turners seem great but ellsworth patchy, giant seem good.
So is all down to the marketing hype?

Of course Orange is a "boutique" brand.

Only non-mainstream bike I've had is my Cove HJ, and when I got it the geometry was different to the mass-market brands.

That's where "boutique" brands can be worth spending extra, I think. For a normal XC full-susser though, I'd stick with a big brand.

Anyone who looks down on someone else for riding a mainstream bike is a dick anyway.

I actually think the gap in cost between boutique and main stream bikes is getting smaller. If you take a similar equipped Lappierre/Trek etc with a similar specced Santa Cruz heckler i doubt there is much in it, if you shop around.

Thumbing through this months WMB with the trail bikes, there is a giant for 4K, Lappierre for 3.7K and a Trek for 3.5K, that sort of budget will buy you a good boutique frame and kit imo.

I am not saying that boutiqe is better, just that it is as affordable 🙂

Advise them to go for a big brand = if they don't know what boutique bike they want then why do they want one? They'll get more bangs for their buck with a brand bike.

Either that or get them to read some MTB mags so that they can choose a boutique brand they like. It's only us aesthetic fools who like the boutique. Plus they'll need to explain each and every component choice on a boutique bike 😉

If he wants a bike that's going to last 10 years, then it would probably be better to be looking at the warrenties offered – Spec and Giant's appear to be superb from people I have spoken too (mind you, I think spec needs to be with their own line suspension stuff).

I suppose the argument to make regarding bike longevity is that he is still riding a 12 year old Marin, that has to say something for the durability of non boutique bikes.

I was chatting to a lad up at Aston hill yesterday on a shiney new Alpine 160 he told me that while it had a 5 year guarantee on the bearings (probably just the suppliers guarantee passed on) Orange only give one year on the frame itself, certainly no better than what you’d get from any other mainstream brand, effectively Orange have no more faith in their frames than Giant, Specialized, Marin, Kona, etc…

Having said that the new Orange owner was very happy with his purchase as the bike was a step up for him on his previous ride and he was impressed with what it allowed him to do, again there is plenty of value in function… Still would a Reign Trance-x or SX not do as well? debatable…

Using the tried and trusted Car analogy it sounds like you’re mate want’s to buy a Merc’ when all he really needs is a Kia…

lol at the car analogy……he is a vw golf gt tdi driver, so I suppose the bike needs to reflect that……practical but with a bit of grunt!

Whatever he gets is gonna feel way better than a 12yr old bike! If your mate likes his Marin get another one…still a lifetime warrantee on the frames, if he's not too fashion concscious (prob not if on a 12yr old bike) lots of 09 stuff around at a discount

Also test rides are great …get him to try loads(if he can)

Zesty's are pretty awesome for the cash I reckon too…he really needs to think about where and how he rides ythough!

I got my E5 cos it was the best equipped bike for the cash, £1000 quid off as it was a (model) year old and has a lifetime frame warantee (on my 2nd now) I would love an Intense Tracer but its a lot of cash for sommat that could be scrap if the frame goes outside of the 2 yrs they warrantee them for!

PS ORANGE BOUTIQUE…you are having a laff!

in my experience quality, reliability and warranty have all been better on mainstream brands, especially Trek and Specialized.

PS ORANGE BOUTIQUE…you are having a laff!

What do you consider "boutique" to mean then, in terms of bike manufacturers?

Of course Orange is a "boutique" brand.

I've never, ever thought of them like that. I've been riding since 1990-ish and to me Orange are just the UK equivilent to Specialized or Kona. Nice bikes but nothing special.

Personally I reckon the big 3 or 4 bike manufacturers probably make better FS bikes than a lot of the boutique brands. FS bikes are complicated – the good ones have had a lot of R&D and hi tech manufacturing, something smaller companies just don't have the budget for.

Boutique bikes often look better and have a more specific set of compromises built in which may suit the buyer better. Otherwise no major differences IMHO.

err, Olly – all bikes are welded by hand.

no they're not

does anyone on here actually know what a boutique bike would be? orange, santa cruz etc surely can not be classed as boutique…

One thing about boutiqe brands like cruz, turner etc.. is that the dont have "model years"

i.e big brands will have different graphics and colours for every year where as the anodizing on your boutiqe will not change for about 3 years therefore not wanting to make you buy a new bike every year!!!!

so it can work ourt cheaper!!! with a boutiqe bike

IMHO Boutique brands = exclusivity = desirability, does not equal (don't know how to do the sign for that!) better, and to compare the relative merits of them against mainstream brands is a battle between head and heart.
eg if you had to choose between buying a Honda and a Ducatti – you know what you should buy, but you also know what you would buy given the chance…..

Some specific parts of hydroformed frames are welded by a robot (straight welds joining two bits of monocoque), but all the complicated tube joining is done by hand AFAIK.

Don't buy a bike for the manufacturer, buy it for the bike. Pretty much all the manufacturers, big and small, have their benefits.

Concentrate on which bike, not which brand.

I couldn't recommend anything other than a big-brand bike to anyone that asked for my opinion. If someone can actually justify a more boutique product they should know what they want enough to not really need my opinion.

Different bikes ride differently. While there may be few stinkers about these days that doesn't mean he's going to like them all equally. Ideally he should demo a few bikes and go for the one that feels best to him, irrespective of how its brand is perceived. As I'm pretty tall I have in the past found getting test rides tricky and that's part of the reason I have an Orange – they were able to provide a demo bike when other brands could not.

Orange….boutique???

IIRC, they sell about as many bikes/frames as Yeti does. However as most Oranges are probably sold in the UK, they seem less rare and exclusive than Yetis do to us.

What do you consider "boutique" to mean then, in terms of bike manufacturers?

Personally I wouldn't consider a brand boutique if the frame manufacture/assembly was outsourced…

>does anyone on here actually know what a boutique bike would be?<

Nicolai would be one ( rare ) example…

I would suggest that being honest with yourself for your reasons for choosing a boutique brand over anything else is the key.

There's nothing wrong with spending silly money on something niche/unusual/boutique/etc so long as you can admit that it won't make you ride better or really be an inherently better bike. It may for some people however mean that they enjoy riding more/make the effort to get out more/make them happier to see other boutique-philes' envy in which case it may well be worth it.

Each to their own.