^ I like nickc, clever bloke

the theoretical alternative is a couple of hundred battle hardened extremists returning to the country determined to try and destroy or destabilise our democratic society

Talking of theories…

If the UK was the enemy in the 1st place, why have they gone overseas to fight?

FEAR is an easy virus to cultivate and more deadly than Ebola will ever be.

If there was the levels of organization or threat that the media suggests, then terrorist attacks would already be a common occurence.

Of course, now the FBI are coming to ‘save our asses’, expect an imminent terrorist attack…

Wonder if being a crisis actor pays well?

The threat from terrorism is not perceived, its very very real.

But not quite as big as the threat posed to cyclists by other road users. I’ve yet to be catapulted through the air by a terrorist who hasn’t seen me.

What Johnson is suggesting is the suspension of Habeas corpus and incarceration without trial.

Courts aren’t set up to prove innocence so presumably these people will just be thrown in jail as soon as they step off the plane.

No risk of that going wrong is there?

@binners please try and focus on the issues and not the name calling. I a not struggling with my point of view at all, nor with yours as I can see where we differ. I do not believe our entire legal system as being under threat by this proposal and I see the threat from inaction as being more significant.

@nickc do you not see the linkage to 9/11 and 7/7 here ? Or the more recent murder of Jews in Belgium by a jihadist returning from Syria. These are people full of hate intending to attack whoever takes their fancy including fellow Muslims who are not from their branch of Islam. They are travelling to Syria to gain military style training and to further intensify their beliefs.

@jive the enemy is anyone they see threatening Islam, this started out with the Syrian government who was killing their brothers, then morphed into attacking other Muslim groups, then Yizadis, then Christians. However, the individuals and organisations concerned have identified the West as a key enemy.

the enemy is anyone they see threatening Islam, this started out with the Syrian government who was killing their brothers, then morphed into attacking other Muslim groups, then Yizadis, then Christians. However, the individuals and organisations concerned have identified the West as a key enemy.

When are they coming to get us ?

And how do I get to vote so that this Boris geezer becomes Prime Minister ?

Good job Jambo, I’m properly scared now…

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQUJR-TLC_c[/video]

be careful, don’t sniff the flowers in case there’s bees and they can be deadly!!

Talking of 9/11, what was going on with WTC7?

Why did Urban Moving Systems get huge government funding?

Why wouldn’t they take lie detector tests?

Why did Dominic Suter leave the U.S.?

To be fair, having an avowed Zionist struggle with the concept of a ‘proportionate’ response to terrorism, doesn’t really come as a massive surprise to me 😆

As for these people being stateless, they have said they want to fight for and live in an Islamic State, many have burned their passports. The proposal just formalises that wish.

What Johnson is suggesting is the suspension of Habeas corpus and incarceration without trial.

No it is not, as I posted before he is saying they cannot come back to the UK, they are free to remain at their liberty outside of the UK. Also as I posted before the detention orders introduced by Labour where more akin to incarceration without trial.

@binners, there is no such thing as proportionate. I recall seeing a quote in the Imperial War Museum from a British WW2 veteran along the lines, “War is an act of violence and anything other than extreme violence is naive”. Was Hiroshima and Nagasaki proportionate ?

Sod all this pussy-footing around – gps tracked chips implanted into all UK citizens so we can all be traced 24/7.

If you’ve nothing to hide what could possibly be wrong with that…….

😉

So what’s the problem? If they’ve burnt their passports then that might prove an obstacle to hopping on the next flight to blighty.

And to be honest with you, given the region they’ve flown too, and what they’re engaged in, throw in their desire for martyrdom, and how many do you reckon are going to make it back in one piece? Seriously?

@binners I don’t want to rely on them 1) deciding not to come back 2) being killed 3) blowing themselves up in a suicide attack.

Police activity has been escalating for many months now. The ongoing commitment to fight this threat has seen a significant rise in the number of Syria related arrests; the first half of this year has seen a total of 69 arrests made for a variety of offences including fundraising for terrorist activity through to the preparation and /or instigation of terrorism acts and travelling abroad for terrorist training. Such arrests are being made at a rate fivefold to that of 2013.

High priority operations, especially against those involved in attack planning or on the cusp have increased greatly. Port stops, and cash seizures have grown by over 50 per cent as we strive to disrupt terrorists.

Met Police Statement

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R09jFWQVrE0[/video]

@kona – no I meant the courts would be involved in an appeal/challenge for someone who was refused permission to return. No one is being refused permission to travel in the proposal.

eh? so who is issuing permission? what criteria are they using? what information should be provided? how long should it take? how does a person returning from a Designated Naughty Place request permission – at the naughty place airport, at Heathrow?

your hopeless conceptual confusion just illustrates what a painfully stupid proposal this is. it hasn’t been thought through precisely because Johnson doesn’t have any intention of pursuing it. it’s just an off the cuff blab designed to project him back into national politics.

eh? so who is issuing permission? what criteria are they using? what information should be provided? how long should it take? how does a person returning from a Designated Naughty Place request permission – at the naughty place airport, at Heathrow?
your hopeless conceptual confusion just illustrates what a painfully stupid proposal this is. it hasn’t been thought through precisely because Johnson doesn’t have any intention of pursuing it. it’s just an off the cuff blab designed to project him back into national politics.

@kona The criteria are simple to establish and operate within the existing procedures around flagging individuals and passport numbers. Police/anti-terrorist intelligence in conjunction with a judge to establish the order, border control to implement.

It is you who are confused. Mixing a simple anti-terrorist measure with a supposed constitutional threat. The measure proposed by Boris is less restrictive than Labours Emergency Detention legislation.

The measure proposed by Boris is less restrictive than Labours Emergency Detention legislation.

Leaving aside whether this is correct or not, why do you keep pointing it out?

What he’s proposing is to throw out the cornerstone that the entire British justice system is built on. The presumption of innocence, and the onus of the prosecution to prove guilt, beyond all reasonable doubt

Except that’s not right is it? Have you seen something tried under health and safety law recently? Offences punishable by (life) imprisonment are tried in exactly this way. Guilty until proved innocent.
So it’s already there, working, in practice today. The only question is how many offences should be tried in this way isn’t it?

@kona The criteria are simple to establish and operate within the existing procedures around flagging individuals and passport numbers. Police/anti-terrorist intelligence in conjunction with a judge to establish the order, border control to implement.

Do you realize that “flagging” of travelers and the regulation and prosecution of travelers are substantively different?

@deadlarcy, I keep pointing it out as plenty here keep trying to categorise Boris’s suggestion as that of a right wing loony and it being against fundamental principals of our legal system and democracy, when IMO it’s less draconian and wide ranging than the Labour measure (which you won’t be surprised to hear I was in favour of)

Met Police chiefs back’s Boris’s call (note reference to Labour control orders 8) )

Control orders were here before; they were stopped because the threat was reduced and quite properly it was seen as too intrusive to have that sort of control order. I think these things have got to be considered when the drumbeat changes and it’s clear the drumbeat changed

Met Police Cheif Comment

Do you realize that “flagging” of travelers and the regulation and prosecution of travelers are substantively different?

Yes and the threat level is quite different also. We are not talking of prosecuting travelers by the way.

@deadlarcy, I keep pointing it out as plenty here keep trying to categorise Boris’s suggestion as that of a right wing loony

Well, it’s becoming clear that they’re just the suggestions of someone who needs headlines and that they’d be impractical to implicate without civil and human rights lawyers making a packet and clogging up the courts. But again, leaving that aside, do you think anyone who criticises the suggestion as that of a right wing loon automatically thinks Control Orders were the actions of a left wing liberal government and as such, is (or was as the case may be) totally in support of their introduction and is bemoaning their demise? Is that the case?

Do you realize that “flagging” of travelers and the regulation and prosecution of travelers are substantively different?

Yes and the threat level is quite different also. We are not talking of prosecuting travelers by the way.
You’re all over the place, mate. You can’t even talk in a straight line. You’ve put more thought into this than Boris Johnson…and it hasn’t done much good.

But again, leaving that aside, do you think anyone who criticises the suggestion as that of a right wing loon automatically thinks Control Orders were the actions of a left wing liberal government and as such, is (or was as the case may be) totally in support of their introduction and is bemoaning their demise?

@deadlarcy – hard to generalise but I would suspect that those who categorise Boris as a right wing loon where probably against the control orders, however they would not have labelled the Labour government as “left wing liberals”

You can’t even talk in a straight line.

@kona perhaps it’s your reading which is wonky ? My view is pretty straightforward and in accordance with the head of the Met Police as per my link above.

hard to generalise

You seem to find it easy.

You’re also avoiding the question. Hey hum. That tells me most of what I need to know.

@dead no and no
For the first answer those who characterise Boris as a right wing loon would be unlikely to describe Laboir as left wing liberals. For the second those same people where probably against the control orders. As I am for both it’s really inappropriate for me to answer hypothetical questions for people who have a different view than I do

bails – Member
How do you prove that you haven’t done something?

Oh, that’s easy. There’s still a few witches ducking stools in museums.

Dunk and hold down.
Count to 500
Undunk.
Still breathing? Possible proof of guilt, redunk.
Not breathing? OK you’re innocent, on your way… 🙂

UK Terror Threat riased to Severe. PM makes a statement.

Extension of laws allowing passports to be removed, prevents travels and return.

BBC

I read 250 jihadist fighters have already returned from Syria (Met Police statement)

Could increased threat have anything to do with FBI coming to UK?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/21/government-agents-directly-involved-us-terror-plots-report?CMP=twt_fd&CMP=SOCxx2I2

And why are Mi5/6 coy about Lee Rigby?

http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5320/mi5-and-mi6-tell-mps-to-censor-key-report-on-lee-rigby-s-killers

Well it goes to show how much Dave is running scared of the mop-haired dim-wit that he looks like he’s actually seriously considering this nonsense. And the labour party (true to Blairite authoritarian form) are saying even more draconian legislation is needed

I love it when governments make legislation up on the hoof, as a knee-jerk reaction to whatever the tabloids are up in arms about this week. It always makes for clear concise, useful and effective laws 🙄