What UTTER UTTER UTTER UTTER Drivel.

I don't think it is, no.
Sure, there's plenty of weekend warriors who can open the throttle wide on a 180bhp sportsbike and stuff themselves into the hedge. But the really quick riders are the massively experienced ones, the ones who rack up the miles in all weathers, who don't take risks, the good ones who you don't really notice until they're 100 yards in front of you and getting smaller. (I don't class myself like this, though)
A busy road isn't the place for taking risks or 'enjoying yourself' for sure, but that doesn't mean you can't travel seriously rapidly…. Not at all. 🙂

I can vividly remember doing some training for my IaM test. It was autumn, with low sun and damp patches everywhere. I was leading down a B-road not a million miles away from the Leith Hill area, and the conditions were't ideal (Sun, leaves, wet bits) and I was concentrating 100% on the road, riding as I'd been taught.
Honestly, everything felt nice and smooth and unhurried. I wasn't missing anything, I wasn't taking the slightest risk, or getting in anyones way. It was very relaxing actually.
Then I made a big mistake…
I looked at the speedo.

So when we stopped, the instructor says to me,
'Why did you slow down?'
'Well, I looked at the speedo and though I was going a bit too fast'
'No, that was fine. If you were on your test you'd have passed no problem. Look at the road, don't be concerned with your speed'

To be fair, it's not always it happens like that, but when it does it's a wonderful feeling. 🙂

Because you were over the speed limit PP? Or because the number just seemed too high?

PP I bet steve peat crashes less than me but I bet when he crashes he really crashes.

PP how fast were you going?

And everyone knows the Institute of Advanced Motoring is a load of bollocks.

The problem with driving/riding by feel is that as you get used to the speed you start to get faster.

Think about it PP, what you are saying is that you can drive as fast as you like based on how good you THINK you are. Which is clearly stupid.

And everyone knows the Institute of Advanced Motoring is a load of bollocks.

Only those that think they know it all, and have nothing to learn.

You can never know too much, or have too much training. I have no idea if I'm any good or not in the grand scheme of things, but I know I'm better then I was. 🙂

molgrips, MF – every so often, I'll get myself into a real tizz about a bicker I am having on t'internet and it'll be bother me and I'll start to get personally annoyed about it. If I'm lucky, I'll think to myself "why should I care?" and then I'll step away from the computer and give myself a break. If I'm unlucky, I'll get more agitated about some thicko online until someone makes me sit on the naughty step.

Is that how you might be feeling now? Is it time to hit pause? Unfortunately STW doesn't have an "ignore" button like other board software does.

The problem with driving/riding by feel is that as you get used to the speed you start to get faster.

It's not a 'problem', and it's not done by 'feel'.

It's a 'skill' and it's done by 'observation' and 'planning'

But being faster and safer is the aim, yes.

konabunny – Member

molgrips, MF – every so often, I'll get myself into a real tizz about a bicker I am having on t'internet and it'll be bother me and I'll start to get personally annoyed about it. If I'm lucky, I'll think to myself "why should I care?" and then I'll step away from the computer and give myself a break. If I'm unlucky, I'll get more agitated about some thicko online until someone makes me sit on the naughty step.

Sums it up all too well. I should have walked away yesterday sometime, I should never have posted today on this, I should have left it alone ages ago!

Think about it PP, what you are saying is that you can drive as fast as you like based on how good you THINK you are. Which is clearly stupid.

Not at all. You've got the wrong end of the stick there, how do you arrive at a conclusion like that?

**I typed out a few replies to that, then deleted them. Because I can't even begin to explain properly how wildy wide of the mark you are with that**

You're just wrong. Totally WRONG.

Now I'm beginning to see how TJ was feeling earlier. Pass me a brick wall to bash my head on please…..

Want to borrow my brick wall PP? Its only got a few dents in it.

read Konabunnys post and walk away. We have tried to shed some light but no one is looking

They are a bit like people who hate cyclists – zooming around on the bridleways scaring the horse and all being reckless pavement riding lycra louts

what you are saying is that you can drive as fast as you like based on how good you THINK you are.

I must try harder to explain…… errrrrr…… ummmmmm……

I'll try and break it down bit by bit –

It's not how good you think you are
It's being aware of what you and the bike can do together (being aware of how good you are)
And learning The System will maximise how safely you can do it
And the more aware you are, and the more you learn and practice, the better you get at it.

It's not about speed.
It's about safety.
So it's about being able to use the speed you have safely and responsibly
Which is where the observation and planning come in
You see. You decide what to do. You do it.
And the more you can see, the earlier you can make that decision, so the safer a certain speed becomes.

I think that makes sense. 😕

Right. I've only got a 200cc scooter right now, but early next year we'll (Mrs PP also rides a motorbike) be getting something bigger we can both ride and go touring on.

When we do*, I will gladly take anyone who thinks I'm talking crap out on the pillion for a nice relaxed ride, so you can at least have some point of reference.
Where do you live Molgrips? I'll put my money where my mouth is. 😀

*2 blokes on a Vespa looks a bit gay

*points and laughs at teh scooterist*

It's not how good you think you are
It's being aware of what you and the bike can do together (being aware of how good you are)

The same thing, mate.

What you're saying is that you can go as fast as you think you can handle, but only provided you're RIGHT about how good you think you are. Well that's everyone, isn't it?

I do take your point, but I am saying that people's psychology there is the weak link.

kona bunny we have all been there I spent 15 pages arguing about global warming with someone who could not even count to ten accurately and posted up Sarah Palin whilst I used science and published reports. We just dont seem able to stop ourselves even when we know the other person will not change their mind or is too stupid to see how stupid they are yet we just post on and on.
I now just say a bit and then give up I threw away the shovel and dont just keep digging

By the way, the reason people argue like this on forums is the language/text barrier. For my part, I really AM listening to what you are saying, and trying to understand it. I hope you are all paying me the same respect.

The problem is that, for some reason, people assume the stupidest possible interpretation of what other people are saying. Why don't we all try a little harder to respect each other? After all, most of us (and everyone on this thread) really are reasonable and intelligent folk.

So I'll rephrase. PP – I agree that you can ride a motorbike nicely, smoothly and considerately taking into account safety and the conditions. But my point is that you can't really trust everyone to correctly assess their own skills and what's a safe speed, can you?

But in any case, how did we get onto this? MF was talking about someone wheelying through no-mans land and almost hitting a car, which is clearly the opposite of what you are advocating.

Molgrips – you actually came over reasonably reasonable to me. Still not fully comprehending the basic point but not closed mind either.

What point are we discussing now then?

I'm a motorcyclist, weekend warrior if you like

It makes you a better car driver, just like being a cyclist does.

The training received nowadays(and the current test) drill this into you

(sorry MF & Grips, 's true)

However, when I was 17 you just rode round the block twice without falling off to get your licence. Maybe this is where the "born agains" are lacking, as when they come back to the scene they either go HD-type pipe and slippers, or the sportsbike route. It's tempting to push the things beyond your skill level, and in support of that side of the argument I would agree that the modern machine is much more capable than 99% of riders.

But there's an element of truth in what TJ and PP say – some things may look scary to the uninitiated, but that 1% know what they are doing. In the same way that some of the MTB stunts you see look terrifying, but you know obviously that the guys concerned can pull it off – and on your bike too.

The public roads however are no place for scaring people, even if you know what you're doing.

great thread though

But my point is that you can't really trust everyone to correctly assess their own skills and what's a safe speed, can you?

No, certainly not. Which is why the motorcycling community has done well in making advanced training the 'trendy' thing to do, at one level or another. Yet in the car world, it's comparitively rare.

By the way, the reason people argue like this on forums is the language/text barrier.

Naah, I'm pretty much always like this. 😉

LHS – Do you ride a motorbike?

Yes, not as much as experience as you but have been riding for 18 years.

The issue you have is that you think that because you are experienced you can ride faster than most and everything will be ok. Well, not only is that dangerous to yourself, it is also selfish to everyone else who will be involved when you eventually die because of your mis-guided self belief.

I have seen good friends who i would classify as very experienced riders get caught out with the same attitude.

Yeah, the car world could certainly do with a hell of a lot more training. The thing is though, the motorcycling community can get away with making safety cool, because they have a reservoir of coolness to draw from. Plus they are a community, of sorts. Motorists aren't – they're just everyone (mostly).

Do you defend the wheelying through no mans land and almost hitting someone tho?

Do you defend the wheelying through no mans land and almost hitting someone tho?

of course he doesn't ..

kona bunny we have all been there I spent 15 pages arguing about global warming with someone who could not even count to ten accurately and posted up Sarah Palin whilst I used science and published reports

LOL, still living in a dream world I see.

Do you defend the wheelying through no mans land and almost hitting someone tho?
of course he doesn't ..

So what's the argument then? 🙂

By the way, the reason people argue like this on forums is the language/text barrier.

Yes in real life we just nod politley agree with everyone and have almost no opinion on anything we are bland and rarely speak up etc 🙄
We are bored and argumentative FFS admit it to yourself FFS man 😆

LHS – I simply did not say that at any point. Part of the reason I stopped riding was the speeds I was going at were getting faster each year despite the touring BMW and it was all going to end in tears.

I was a fast smoooth skilled rider tho – the stealth type you don't notice hopefully. It would take me a while now to get back up to speed

Most of my motorcycling friends have taken a step back over the last few years.

All I tried to say was that car drivers perceptions of the speeds and the danger of motorcycles is usually very wrong. MF in particular was slating motorcyclists without actually having any idea of their capabilities and was bigging up his inexperienced friend as a super safe rider.

It's sunny out you know.

The public roads however are no place for scaring people, even if you know what you're doing.

This pretty much sums it up for me, I'm a completely average driver and lapsed motorcyclist, I understand the point that PP and TJ are making entirely. You can do stuff on a bike that appears to be dangerous, but it's not really, but if you scare the crap out of Mr and Mrs average whilst they're on the way back from Tesco, then in reality it's just as bad. Consideration for other road users is the missing piece of this particular puzzle.

Do you defend the wheelying through no mans land and almost hitting someone tho?

Not my argument! I'm fine with the one I've got, ta.
🙂

What happened? Did I miss that bit?

We are bored and argumentative FFS admit it to yourself FFS man

Well it's true, I am argumentative in real life, and also bored out of my f*cking BONCE at work.. but arguments in real life seem far less acrimonious in general…

In fairness to MF's friend – you don't know if he's safe or not. If I rode a bike I'd make damn sure I was safe about it because I'm that way inclined.

PP, if you weren't arguing about that, what were you arguing against? I'm lost now!

Where do you live Molgrips? I'll put my money where my mouth is.

*2 blokes on a Vespa looks a bit gay

I have 1000cc's of Italian v-twin if you'd prefer to look a bit less gay and a cheap (Lidl) intercom if you want to hear what goes on in a motorcyclists' head.

nickc – same as scaring redsocks when out in the lakes – only MF ws playing the role of the redsocks 🙂

When out on your MTB even if you slow down and be polite you will still scare the crap out of some folk 'cos they wander along in their own little world

I have 1000cc's of Italian v-twin if you'd prefer to look a bit less gay.

That actually sounds MORE gay to be honest.

but if you scare the crap out of Mr and Mrs average whilst they're on the way back from Tesco, then in reality it's just as bad. Consideration for other road users is the missing piece of this particular puzzle.

That's very true, and 99% of the time it's doable as well, but you can't account for the odd person who's really not watching what they're doing, never sees you approach, and ends up scared witless no matter how wide a berth you give them, which I have no doubt does happen.

I have 1000cc's of Italian v-twin if you'd prefer to look a bit less gay.

Cheers, but we shall hpoefully have our own Italin V-twin next year. Probably a Multistrada or an ST3 I think, possibly a Guzzi or 'Prilia maybe… 🙂

EDIT
I love my Vespa. Cool as you like, classy black, 72mpg and £72 insurance. 🙂

L twin I hope 😆

PP; very true.

£72 insurance

Being old has it's advantages as that's about what it costs me to insure my CBR600F fully comp. It doesn't manage 72mpg though…