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Blimey Dave, you weren't joking….
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teamhurtmoreFree Member
…when you suggested tax freezes pre-election
A five year ban on income tax, VAT and NI???
The three largest revenue earners capped. Hmmm…..seems quite extreme/ballsy (you decide)
So eyes open for harsher cuts and hidden taxes. Short haulage firms? No mention of fuel duties 😉
seadog101Full MemberSo where the extra money come from then Dave? Whose pockets are you going to take it from?
teamhurtmoreFree MemberHe had better hope the economy keeps growing. Time to sort out the productivity problem finally? But a bit early for a political trap!!
ernie_lynchFree MemberHim and his mate Osborne have already pushed VAT to the highest level in history, and you’re impressed because they are happy to leave at that level for the next 5 years ?
crankboyFree Member“Time to sort out the productivity problem finally?”
shut down STW during office hours?
teamhurtmoreFree MemberWho said anything about impressed? C’mon Ernie no games now! You will be aware of how UK VAT stacks up against international comparisons too.
ernie_lynchFree MemberYou’re unimpressed then. How much do you think VAT should be reduced by, down to the level it was before the Tories came to power ?
ThrustyjustFree Memberhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_of_Europe
Must admit we don’t look to shonky compared to the rest of Europe, although some countries , which are less in VAT , I wouldn’t want to live.
nickcFull MemberEasily the stupidest thing the tories said in all the campaign (of many stupid things)
Tory equivalent of the “Ed Stone”
teamhurtmoreFree MemberIt’s never a good idea to judge individual taxes in isolation (google IFS/Mirlees etc, that’s the old problem).
VAT has increased globally for well documented and valid reasons. The UK is no exception to the rule.
I note instead the concept of freezing big tax revenue earners at this stage. As I noted before, the real cuts have yet to bite. This makes this more likely now IMO as growth still looks vulnerable. The global debt overhang remains bigger than ever and there is little inflation/growth to erode it.
Oopps!
richcFree MemberNI has been creeping up for years, as most people don’t look at that part of their pay stubbs.
binnersFull MemberJust goes to show that there was no-one more shocked than Dave to end up with a majority. So Him and Gideon looked at each other in complete disbelief, and said ‘shit! we’ve actually got to implement all that crap we promised before. The stuff we never ever thought we’d ever have to do’
Basically, this is the Tory’s equivalent of this…..
You can promise what you like, when you don’t think for a second you’ll actually be held accountable for it. But we all know what happens to people who renege on stuff like that, don’t we?This Years Lib Dem conference could take place in a family car.
Theres also the small matter of that £8 billion extra a year for the NHS. Time for a root around down he back of the sofa. Or some serious Gordon Brown-esque double-bubble accounting
footflapsFull MemberI really don’t see why they need bother with legislating for this, it’s not as if the opposition can just unilaterally raise VAT half way through Parliament….
StonerFree Memberapropos, EU tax rates. Our VAT isn’t the worst. But It’s a terrible tax and should be got rid of.
red = corp tax
blue = top income tax
green = VATernie_lynchFree MemberVAT has increased globally for well documented and valid reasons. The UK is no exception to the rule.
Oh I see. VAT went up when the Tories came to power because of conditions outside their control. For the last 5 years the Tories haven’t been in complete control of the economy and it’s all down to well documented “global” reasons.
Unlike the previous 5 years when Labour were in power, then obviously they were in complete control of the economy and everything was down to them.
How convenient.
ernie_lynchFree MemberThanks for that Stoner. I now see that under a Labour government the UK had one of the lowest VAT rates of any country. Of course all that changed when the Tories came back to government. Who would have thought Labour governments were low tax governments eh ?
Income tax rates fell under Labour.
VAT rose under the Tories.
StonerFree MemberIIRC when we had 15% VAT (under a lovely labour government), so too did much of Europe. I think what THM was alluding to was the “soft” VAT harmonisation towards 20% that’s been encouraged across the EU over the last 15 years or so.
gonefishinFree MemberI assume that the promise relates to the rate of said taxes and there has been no mention of changing the threshold at which they are applied (e.g. upper NI contributions on wages), or the reliefs that are granted (e.g. limited pension reliefs)?
Then of course there are things like CGT which could well be expanded to include say the sale of your home, to pick a hypothetical example at random.
Make no mistake there are plenty of ways that additional taxes can be raised whilst still sticking to the letter of these promises.
teamhurtmoreFree MemberNo Ernie, not global reasons as in external reasons. Instead, reasons that support VAT that are widely accepted as being valid. You will see similar charts across many economies, irrespective of who is in power. Google is your friend….
You will, of course be aware that VAT was first introduced as a condition of entry into the EEC.
Of course, politically myopic folk may wish to divert attention to progressive (sic) issues instead of understanding why governments use VAT in the first place. Make for a nice swerve and pointless arguments!
ernie_lynchFree MemberYeah THM you know full well that the UK as a long standing member state had a right of veto on the VAT rates which later applied to new members. The last Labour government used that right to keep the VAT rate in the UK low, the Tory government which followed chose not to.
As a dyed-in-the-wool Tory you clearly feel uncomfortable when the Tory myth that they are the party of low taxation is exposed as a sham.
So you come out with some bollocks such as “Google is your friend….” and in a stroke of wonderful irony “Make for a nice swerve and pointless arguments!”
It’s you who’s trying diversionary tactics. You started a thread to discuss that the Tories aren’t putting up VAT, I pointed out that’s because they’ve already put it up to the highest level in history.
Obviously you want to change the subject now. Along predictably to tell me that you know what you’re talking about and that I don’t. What a surprise.
teamhurtmoreFree MemberAre the, “you are a Tory” chestnut, how novel! Thanks for the economic history lesson Ernie. Not that I need it, remember who notes that your poster girl’s track record was largely a myth – not a common stance albeit one that I maintain!
Strip away the political blinkers and explain why there has been a global adoption of and increase in the rate of VAT. Are the Tories that powerful that they influence tax policies everywhere. May be it wasn’t a myth after all, I must be mistaken!
Of course there is an alternative interpretation as the OECD makes clear
The spread of VAT has been the most important development in taxation over the last half century. Limited to less than ten countries in the late 60’s it has now been implemented by more than 150 countries. VAT now raises approximately 20 percent of the world’s tax revenue and affects about 4 billion people. The recognized capacity of VAT to raise revenue in a neutral and transparent manner has drawn all OECD member countries to adopt this broad-based consumption tax, except the United States, which continues to employ retail sales taxes at the state level (and below) rather than apply a federal consumption tax. Its neutrality principle towards international trade has also made it the preferred alternative to customs duties in the context of trade liberalization.
Still what do they know, eh?
I actually started a thread to highlight that Dave has proposed capping three of the most important sources of government revenue. As noted before, it’s much better to think about taxes in aggregate. Far too easy to end up in party political cul de sacs otherwise.
So back to the topic…..
ernie_lynchFree MemberSo back to the topic…..
So back to the topic the Tory government’s “five year ban” on a VAT increase isn’t anywhere near impressive as it might otherwise appear as they had already increased VAT 5 years ago to the highest level in history.
Blimey indeed Dave.
teamhurtmoreFree Member😀
Meanwhile, considering the implications of the measures in aggregate…
(Enjoy your games Ernie)
MoreCashThanDashFull MemberI really don’t see why they need bother with legislating for this, it’s not as if the opposition can just unilaterally raise VAT half way through Parliament….
This^^
The most stupid and pointless Tory stunt [insert joke here] of the campaign. And as others have said, thresholds will still be changed.
All of us who slagged off the Lib Dems for their part in the coalition may be missing them soon now the Tories are properly off the leash.
FlaperonFull MemberA five year ban on income tax, VAT and NI???
Fiscal drag into the 40% band as pay tracks inflation is an effective way of making extra cash from people who can afford to pay it.
brFree MemberAnd you can’t just look at head-line rates as we also don’t put VAT on lots of products other countries do.
The spread of VAT has been the most important development in taxation over the last half century. Limited to less than ten countries in the late 60’s it has now been implemented by more than 150 countries. VAT now raises approximately 20 percent of the world’s tax revenue and affects about 4 billion people. The recognized capacity of VAT to raise revenue in a neutral and transparent manner has drawn all OECD member countries to adopt this broad-based consumption tax, except the United States, which continues to employ retail sales taxes at the state level (and below) rather than apply a federal consumption tax. Its neutrality principle towards international trade has also made it the preferred alternative to customs duties in the context of trade liberalization.
OT – Also helps Europe sell software products to the rest of the world as more move onto VAT from Sales Tax’s etc.
ernie_lynchFree MemberAll of us who slagged off the Lib Dems for their part in the coalition may be missing them soon now the Tories are properly off the leash.
In May 2010 Nick Clegg and the LibDems created a right song and dance concerning the “Tory VAT bombshell”, urging people not to vote Tory as he/they claimed the Tories intended to put up VAT.
A few weeks later with his ministerial car firmly secured Nick Clegg helped the Tories increase VAT from 17.5% to 20%. Which btw makes it the highest ever level in history.
The Tories couldn’t have done it without help from the LibDems.
sbobFree Memberseadog101 – Member
So where the extra money come from then Dave? Whose pockets are you going to take it from?
The STW massive seem quite keen to pay more tax to cover these bills.
All sorted!julianwilsonFree MemberThe STW massive seem quite keen to pay more tax to cover these bills.
All sorted!Original post included this:
A five year ban on income tax, VAT and NI???
The three largest revenue earners capped.
As i have no inheritance any time soon, i don’t run a business and i do a very few thousand miles a year driving, i am not sure how this government is actually going to allow me to pay more tax.
Beer maybe? Better start panic buying now 😉brooessFree MemberNotice how it’s never difficult for the Press to find a photo of Gideon with a dark look in his eyes. He’s a game player par excellence. So was Balls IMO. In love with the game of politics but no interest in actually doing the job…
Even the Economist struggles to find much positive to say about him.e.g. their take on Gideon announcing more power to the regions is that way worse cuts are coming than we had in the last parliament. Give the regions power just as the massive cuts come through and the electorate makes a (wrong) correlation/causation and blames local government…
With a massive deficit to be paid off, there’ll be plenty of ways that taxes will be found – there has to be or we’ll end up broke. This looks like populism, not policy. Why on earth would you freeze taxes when such a massive deficit has to be paid off? Maybe he’s going to do the sensible thing and tax BTL and foreign ownership till they bleed, and give housing back to ‘hard-working families’ instead of spivs… but I doubt it, sadly
BillMCFull MemberProgressive income tax has fallen whereas regressive taxes on expenditure like VAT have increased. These changes are made to benefit the rich as proportionately less of their income goes on expenditure and, for example, they don’t get charged VAT on their private school fees. Incidentally the de facto tax subsidies to private schools because of their ‘charitable’ status amount to a sum greater than the per capita expenditure on pupils in state schools.
ernie_lynchFree MemberI strongly believe that you want to disagree but can’t manage anything beyond pointless inane comments edward2000. I wonder which one of us is right ?
hopeychondriactFree MemberWhat I don’t fully understand is why govt decided to put vat up when it should gave gone down to increase spending and growth to bring in probably wayyyy more govt income from business’
I voted tactically last time round and chose not to vote this time round in the strong belief there is no good option of a bad lot of stinking eggs.
They’re trying to pull off new young voters to their party but only for short term temporary policies which even then they don’t have to stick to going through with.
Shame in you tory elite scuzzbuckets
Rockape63Free MemberWhat I don’t fully understand is why govt decided to put vat up when it should gave gone down to increase spending and growth to bring in probably wayyyy more govt income from business’
Well….I would suggest that if you had no money or were struggling, your main spending would be on essentials which have no or lower vat levels. If you’ve got some cash to splash then you are paying more tax.
Its wot the lefties want….. isn’t it?
meftyFree MemberIncidentally the de facto tax subsidies to private schools because of their ‘charitable’ status amount to a sum greater than the per capita expenditure on pupils in state schools.
This is complete and utter rubbish.
footflapsFull MemberEven the Economist struggles to find much positive to say about him.e.g. their take on Gideon announcing more power to the regions is that way worse cuts are coming than we had in the last parliament. Give the regions power just as the massive cuts come through and the electorate makes a (wrong) correlation/causation and blames local government…
This is the most centralist government yet!
Cameron is continuing with his creeping centralism. Housing charities and council estates will in effect come under a central land bank, with Whitehall dictating disposals, subsidies and revenue transfers. The failed attempt in the last parliament to balance affordable sales with newbuilds has led Cameron to seize control of public housing finance in every corner of the land. This is megalomania.
The government is now seeking to complete the covert project to nationalise all schools. New primaries and secondaries, together with those defined by Whitehall as “failing or coasting”, are to be brought under regional tzars. Some schools will be called “free”, but that makes no difference. The nationalisation of Britain’s schools, a project sought by Lord Lawson in the 1980s, may at last be achieved, ending a long tradition of local responsibility for education.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/27/queens-speech-cameron
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