Looking at cheap Chinese carbon frames (yes, I know, with my reputation 😕 ) and I found this amusing more than anything.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Disc-Brake-58cm-3K-Carbon-External-Route-Cable-Cyclocross-Bike-Frame-Fork-Hanger-/121287510694

Duty fee “Import duties,taxes and charges are not included in the item price or shipping charges.These charges are the buyer’s responsibility. Please check with your country’s customs office .And what we can do is mark the invoice with a low Declared Value for you, so pls leave a message to us if you have request for the declare value, otherwise we’ll mark it with a little low declare in case you pay too much taxes.

And

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cyclo-Cross-full-carbon-frameset-fork-painted-different-color-700C-wheels-frames-/151286017265

As we’ve paid the postage from us to you, and all our prices are FOB, we are not responsible for any postage or taxes in your countries.
(All that we can do for you is mark the invoice with a requested low or high declare from you, so you should leave a message to us if you have request for the declare, otherwise we’ll mark it with a little low declare in case you pay too much taxes)

I’m not surprised that people go along with this, after all, who wants to “pay too much taxes”, I’m just surprised that they can advertise it so openly.

Seems to be fairly standard practice for a lot of Chinese companies – some fairly major (and presumably legit) companies I’ve bought stuff from who mark customs value down as standard and give you the option of what value to declare when you checkout.

The thing to bear in mind is that as the purchaser you’re the importer, hence it’s you committing fraud!

Caveat emptor.

And if it goes missing/gets broken by the delivery company you will only be insured to declared value.

Steveoath,

It’s hard to avoid damaging during the transportation, so you have to check the items carefully before you signing and receive them, we are not responsible for any damage caused by yourselves, but are responsible for damage during the transportation!
If damaged already, please do refuse to sign for the parcel,the courier will send back the package to our company.
You cannot get any compensation from us after received it but found it was damaged.
Anyway, I suggest you never receiving it if you found it damaged, we cannot make compensation for you!

I know this means making the delivery driver hang around while you unpack and inspect it, which he won’t want to do, but it’s the only way to cover yourself.

Aracer, I suppose the importer and exporter are both complicit, it’s just that the exporter is a business, so I wouldn’t expect them to make it so obvious that they are bending the rules.

Aracer, I suppose the importer and exporter are both complicit, it’s just that the exporter is a business, so I wouldn’t expect them to make it so obvious that they are bending the rules.

I assume that fact that these are Chinese companies means they’re not covered by UK laws in so far as HMRC wont be able to come after them.

Fraud?

How many MPs have/will dodge full taxes in the future?

Just one example- boris declared and pays full. Ken employed a avoidance scheme.

Exactly Hora, if somebody else does it then it’s fine for everyone.

In this case I guess the importer (ie you) is responsible for paying the right duty, the seller in this case may be complicit in your fraud but you are also asking them to do it for you.

At the pearly gates I doubt Jesus would say

You didnt pay the £30 local taxes on a bicycle frame.

Would he?

More important things to wory about than taxes from the Sheriff.

The state keeps us thinking small. Think big OP. Forget about it.

The naivety in this post is amazing. Under-invoicing is standard practice in many countries around the world. If you’re going to export your goods you will often have to do it. You sell at £10.00 but invoice the goods at £3.00 and the buyer pays you the balance £7.00 through a private channel such as a bank account in your country. So the importer only pays duty, VAT etc on the £3.00. In countries where import duty can be 100%, it’s understandable why people want to do it.

The opposite is over-invoicing where you over charge the customer and pay the overcharge as a “commission” into his local bank account so that he’s got some cash for holidays, to educated his kids, etc. Obviously if you are doing this for an employee of the buying company it’s called a kickback.

Either one is very common indeed.

Exactly Hora, if somebody else does it then it’s fine for everyone.

You don’t see any difference between our ‘leaders’ doing it, versus Bob next door?

Google/Starbucks/Vodafone etc owe billions in taxes. Why are we worrying about £30 on a bike frame?

Hora if no one pays any tax then how do we. Well never mind some one else will pay it

Uselesshippy

Worse than that. They don’t owe it do they? Two wrongs don’t make a right

These threads go hand in hand with the why is stuff in the states cheaper etc.
If you want cheap goods, pay not tax, get bugger all paid holiday, no state provided medical service and all that.

Google/Starbucks/Vodafone etc owe billions in taxes. Why are we worrying about £30 on a bike frame?

perhaps because of the bigger picture (as Hora’s asking us to think big). While the big tax avoidances by the big companies are distasteful its actually the many, many small avoidances than the handful of big ones that make a really difference to the rest of us. The tax being avoided by those big businesses is measured in millions but the total figure for avoidance and evasion runs into billions so those big multinationals are only a small part of that picture. The ‘tax gap’ in the UK is now £35 billion per year. Of that around 8billion is avoidances by large corporations (but all the big names we read about don’t add up to even 1 billion of that) and 16 billion is avoidance by small business (and another 5 billion by individuals). So its all these little wheezes, because there are more of them, that have the greater effect on the bottom line.

The tax gap is bigger than the entire government budget for personal and social services – i.e. the services and support we’ll actually receive ourselves throughout our lifetime

Its not just little paper exercises and invoicing irregularities and cash-in-hand – some of the avoidances are in plain view

v For instance this is a tax avoidance scheme v

Im not talking Starbucks.

I pay full tax. I wonder how many indie gas/plumber/builders/self employed cab drivers claiming tax credits and all these who declare they only earn c15k to HMRC whilst trousering cash plus fictious VAT that they add to each bill?

If we banned cash in hand jobs overnight I wonder how much tax would start coming in?

The government Ltd employees, the self employed advisors, people like Chris Moyles, etc etc?

Thats the bigger picture.

I dunno how astute HMCE are about these things, but I bought a frame from a Chinese supplier this year marked with low value on the delivery note – Spanish customs would not let it through without seeing evidence that I had paid that little. I tried to call their bluff but they just sat on it for a month until I obliged and paid the full whack.

I guess you would have to pay the suppier in two parts – one that matches the amount on the delivery note, and the balance later. They might still hit you for ‘anti dumping’ though.

Morally, it’s a no brainer. Am I going to lose sleep over not paying full vat and customs on a pair of bike wheels, or declaring as little of my income as possible? Hasn’t happened yet…

I’m wondering who is actually defrauding who here? I’ve had ebay stuff arrive with low valuation on it – which I had not asked for, and was not mentioned on the advert. Am I legally obliged to contact hmrc and tell them? The seller hasn’t defrauded anyone (they are not due to pay the tax anyway), and could only gain from the theoretical possibility that I would make another order. This is a little different from the OP’s case of course, where the low valuation is a sweetener for the deal.

Yes http://search2.hmrc.gov.uk/kb5/hmrc/contactus/view.page?record=k9zpyaj9_go 😉

See that bit about asking the delivery chap to wait whilst you inspect it. I do if there is the slightest damage to the packaging. I won’t sign for anything that just may be damaged. Saved me money and hassle twice now. Most definitely worth it.

The seller’s doing nothing wrong here, legally all responsibility is on the importer whether it’s a trade or private purchase. You’re the one who has to establish value and import classification and the one HMRC can go after, not the seller overseas.

It’s not the duty its the VAT that you get stung with. I’d one turn up with ‘Warranty Replacement’ plastered all over the box. Which of course it was. Fairly sure I just paid the duty.

Off set mortgage, ISA, all tax avoidance, Lock us up I say. Its not as though every penny is spent wisely without considerable waste.