Well one they leave home your less likely to catch something from them I guess.  Bad luck Ferrals.

I’ll expect to next get some consistent training in when I’m a super vet then 😂

Not that I’d change it for the world obviously

I’m in the doldrums. Last June I suffered an L5 S1 herniation. 4-5 months recovery. Back biking very lightly (light running and swimming also) and then suffered a relapse mid January. I’m a mid pack finishers at very best, racing enduro and some XC. I gave up my entry for the first round of the PMBA this year and I’m extremely anxious about racing the next round in April. Had a biking weekend in Scotland at the weekend and really struggled. I felt awful, was at the back of the pack by a long way all weekend and can’t find the motivation to try and ride more. I don’t really know how to train for enduro, or xc. I really like racing, I like the atmosphere, being surrounded by lots of others riding the same taped trails that you wouldn’t normally do. I’m 35 and feel like I’ll never be better than mid pack.

Any advice?

Any advice?

I think unless you’re genetically predisposed you’ll find that is just life, sadly. There’s  some graph type thing that shows how many hours training you need for levels in the real world. Even the lowest level of mid-pack fodder is 30 hours a month training, to get to the levels above that it’s crazy hours of training. Dedicated diet, hard graft and specific training not just ‘cycling’.

Some are really lucky that they have the ability to do well without needing such dedication, but the brutal reality is that a large chunk of us are not that lucky.

If you REALLY want it… You need to work both harder and better… Whether or not you do… Is down to you.

There’s some graph type thing that shows how many hours training you need for levels in the real world. Even the lowest level of mid-pack fodder is 30 hours a month training,

That rings about true actually, a couple of years ago when I was feeling fit i was doing 25-35hrs per month for a solid-mid-pack resume. Last year varied between 10-2 per month averaging around 17 and this year isnt improving yet!

@st colin – seems like you need to focus on some core work to protect your bakc nad then hopefully you’ll get the buzz back?

I’d be quite happy being mid pack if our packs were large enough that you had tight racing, problem in wales is xc isn’t super popular so it can become a time trial round an xc course. I think the times might be changin though, seems a bit more interest

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/how-to-plan-your-season-with-training-stress-score/

I’ve spent this week in the Doldrums.  Trying to keep the painters/decorators sorted uptairs, end of a sales quarter at work, and the last 2 weeks of 5 months winter training took its mental toll.  Targeted for 3 x 20’s on Wednesday night, I managed one (just) then started the next but collapsed mentally.  Just sat on a stool with my head in my hands for 15 mins, not being able to bear the thought of 4hrs in Z2 on the turbo this weekend.

After speaking to my coach I’ve abandoned the rest of the week based on just riding a bit this weekend and aiming but not sticking religiously to zones, but actually woke up at 6 (no curtains) this morning and decided to go and do an hours Z2 on the SSCX.

My club has a socially paced ride tomorrow I may join that to have some people to chat to for a change, if I’m feeling good I can come out of the wheels and use some Herts hills for Sweet Spot efforts.

the thought of 4hrs in Z2 on the turbo this weekend

Not trolling but what is four hours in z2 supposed to achieve? Seems like a lot of boring peddling.

Mitochondria development leading to greater endurance, movement of the upper Z2 boundary and is fasted, so shifting energy source reliance to fat stores.

Yes it is very dull, but serves a purpose.

Just sat on a stool with my head in my hands for 15 mins, not being able to bear the thought of 4hrs in Z2 on the turbo this weekend.

remember its a hobby, and not your job

remember its a hobby, and not your job

Think all enthuisiastic amateur racers are guilty of forgetting this and having a strop from time to time! I’m getting much better at remembering this though, and slowing getting less fit and fatter at the same time!

shifting energy source reliance to fat stores

I know you’re targetting marathons this year but long term goal is XCO style racing isn’t it? As you’re being coached I’m sure they are right but I’ve never understood the requirement for fasted training to races round about 1hr30.

So how many years does it take for them to build up an imune system?

Normally just at the point where your wife decides that you need another child. 😁

Think all enthuisiastic amateur racers are guilty of forgetting this and having a strop from time to time! I’m getting much better at remembering this though, and slowing getting less fit and fatter at the same time!

Years ago, before kids and wife and family life, I used to race a lot of xc and cx (and occasional TTs and triathlons and anything else.) One day, riding over the hills north of Swansea I made the mistake of looking up at the view. Despite riding that trail regularly it felt as if I’d never seen it before. I spent all of my time head down. I can pinpoint that moment as being where my racing ‘career’ dived and I started to ride more than race. And look at views.

Haha, views alway interupt my training… kind of hard for them not to when your doing hill reps up the eastern climb out of Pwlldu  🙂

I spent all of my time head down. I can pinpoint that moment as being where my racing ‘career’ dived and I started to ride more than race. And look at views.

That’s the difference for me between indoors and outdoors riding. On Zwift i ‘train’ but outdoors i ride, even though sometimes i do push on, i rarely push on for more than a small segment. Riding is a release for me and has to be fun… Without the fun, it’s just bloody hard work.

doing hill reps up the eastern climb out of Pwlldu 🙂

Dangerous! I once fell off the edge of the track because I was looking at the sea. Got ‘saved’ by a gorse bush between the legs. 😂

remember its a hobby, and not your job

To be fair to my coach, he said that.  I do feel rather refreshed after this mornings ride.

Mental doldrums here.   After 5 months of coached training – and I know not to expect massive leaps and bounds – I have nothing to show for “improvement” and its got to my head.  Of the two events I’ve done, a Marathon at Builth was so different (course, conditions) to 2017 its not comparable and on Sundays XCO I dropped 2 places and the gap between me and known riders in front increased.

I’m heavier by 4lbs, not feeling any fitter stronger or faster and really am now perplexed.   If this is all I’ve got for MTB racing is there really any point throwing money at it – ok I know its better than sofa surfing – anymore?

Any advice for getting out of a mental slump would be appreciated.

Aren’t you targeting marathons? Sounds like Builth was a shitfest and maybe a lack of outdoor riding/skills stuff was a limiter?

Could be the same thing for the XCO – have other riders been more focused on top end?

I’m heavier by 4lbs, not feeling any fitter stronger or faster and really am now perplexed.   If this is all I’ve got for MTB racing is there really any point throwing money at it – ok I know its better than sofa surfing – anymore?

Do you not have a powermeter for gauging the improvements in that context ?

I’d have thought something like that would show you quickly and easily ?

How about riding particular terrain/routes that are known to you ?

From this context i look at Crosshairs figures often on Strava and he’s putting out more power, quicker times on segment after segment every time the fella goes out… Which makes me think “Clearly he’s getting faster and faster”… Of course, some/most of his is road based, so easier to replicate the routes and conditions on a month by month basis.

Do you not have a powermeter for gauging the improvements in that context

Yes, I’ve not got a test scheduled as I’m on a plan to BemC May 21, so can’t defer.  Next test will be June.

Could be the same thing for the XCO – have other riders been more focused on top end?

Off course I don’t know what other riders have done, but of course its likely I’m more diesel power than they are.   But this is the point, I’ve no reference for improvement, so what I’m asking for is advice on that, or just advice on managing my head.

I have thought of one thing – my 2017 21st in that round was a surprise to me, I thought I’d be late 20’s.  I guess in the next XCO if I also place there that will show some improvement.  If I revert to late 20’s, well…

Yes, I’ve not got a test scheduled as I’m on a plan to BemC May 21, so can’t defer.  Next test will be June.

Surely every ride to an extent unless riding to a specific power/Z2 etc gives some useful information on power, not just a test?

I’m not sure how easy it is to compare positions between years / races. Firstly your position is based on who else turns up, secondly race routes and conditiosn vary so are not identical replication.

If you need a form of verification focus on times for road or at least fire road climbs at your timing on them.

Mentally its been such a wet spring, everything off-road feels draggy.

In terms of bike racing doldrums I have my first race at the end of the month, Last week I was away with work so got no training in at all, Did an easy hour’s ride when back on Saturday, then not ridden since as now ill.  My legs still hurt as if I’ve been doing heavy training despite barely riding in the last couple of weeks, can’t work out why??

Some tips I find useful:

Turbo – Zwift is great, but for proper Z2 rides, nothing beats riding rollers, especially when watching a race on Eurosport. Rollers are basically a Z2 device; it’s hard to go much harder, and the concentration makes up for the boredom.

Adrenaline – get yourself down to Hillingdon for a Tuesday evening Cat 4 race (18:30 tonight). Just riding fast in a bunch is fun, intense and a great workout. You have enough fitness and skill to hang in there, don’t worry about points, don’t contest the sprint, just go for the workout and enjoy it. Objectives and expectations are what spoil racing.

A coach, as opposed to a coaching plan is a useful motivation, but the most important part is to have realistic objectives. Based on being chased down in my last masters race mercilessly, my objectives may need to change a bit this year! I’m still doing a lot of Zone 2 work, because ultimately this is absolutely needed for my biggest objective of the year. It does mean that my vestigial sprint is not helping the BC points harvest 😀

And weeky’s hours/week is not far off. I’m typically 12-14 hrs/week with intermittent rest weeks.

A bit cranky here.  A work week in Portugal eliminated some training and I returned Thursday night with Norovirus.  That’s pretty much wiped out an Endurance weekend with two days without food.

Nearly June now my performance has faltered prior to that, I’ve four races in my legs after a whole winter of hard yet apparently unsuccessful training.

Might try a slow spin on the mtb tomorrow but with 5 months of the year left any signs of relative success are fading.

Have you thought about knocking it on the head for this season and just riding for fun?

Doesn’t mean you can’t race as well. It sounds to me like you’re putting a lot of pressure on yourself to perform because you’re paying for coaching (and putting in the hours). Maybe it’s counter productive? Dunno.

Ha Ha – when I posted that I didn’t read upward – perhaps this is an annual occurrance – post winter training Doldrums!

TBH I’ll see how The Llandovery Marathon goes on the 26th, but thats an option yes.  I do feel fit, just not fast.  Despite my HR being in the upper reaches I’m not dying over the line, and am recovering in but a few minutes.  I was asked to do a session of 2min Z5 efforts to test a theory and I couldn’t maintain my average 2min power at all although I completed all 10 – so were agreed I’m not getting the power out but don’t know why.

Doldrums got worse this afternoon – the last race I did was a mudfest and for various reasons the bike got a quick jet wash/drivetrain lube and then left for 10 days.  Today I gave it a deep clean to find seized Jockey wheels, a NDS rubbed to through the paint by the tyre/mud, needing new brake pads and somehow I’ve ripped a groove around the entire sidewall of a nearly new Barzo TNT all the way around down to the fibres – that must have been close to going pop. Sigh.

FFS

\moan

A tickley throat Saturday has turned into severe Bronchitis by today, so much so they’ve got nervous about the onset of pneumonia.   I have pills and pumps galore in defence plus at least 7 days off the bike.  With 24/12 at the end of the month I’ll lose most of my training and my season is pretty much gone.

I know its a minor issue with all else considered, but with all the effort put into training with a coach this year I can’t see any reason to continue.  Tiny things have made themselves appear on race days and seem to be excuses for me to not be able to see any improvement, my top end has gone, and the commitment to training regimes, eating correctly, being tired more often that not, the inflexibility of it all and 10hrs return to a Scott Marathon every so often hardly seems worth it anymore.

Someones going to have to do well to convince me that all this for top 3rd of the Vets pack in a Scott Marathon is worth this effort.

/moan

I went out with the *cough* veterans (the mid week ride is pretty much pensioners and the odd early retiree, probably makes them grand grand masters or something), I’m 32 and delighted in the fact I could be the first to the top of every hill and doing pretty much the entire ride on the front. Pick your battles. 🤣

On a serious note, maybe do more events? That way getting a cold on the run up to 24/12 is less of a big deal if you’ve already had a good Mountain Mayhem, which itself was a highlight because Strathpeffer was a bad day on the bike. Rather than focusing on one big event and having success or failure at that define a whole season.

My targets for this season:
1) Lose some weight (done, would like another stone before SSUK and another before CX season).
2) Have a good day on the bike at SSUK, a mate has a metaphorical target on his back.
3) Do some CX, again the aim is a good day on the bike, not doing shit would be a bonus.
4) Actually carry some fitness through the winter, maybe do the Brass Monkeys with the same aim as the CX. And maybe join the track league next year.

Note the lack of anything that could specifically piss me off. I’ve had too much work (yay!) to do much riding in the first 1/4, and a few niggling injuries (right kneecap, left achilies are both a bit inflamed and both my thumbs are constantly sore) in the 2nd 1/4.

It’s supposed to be fun, Froome can be pissed off with injuries as it’s his job. For everyone else?

Here’s how it looks to me as a personal friend of Krytons.
His coach is a young man with all the science at his fingertips but not enough life under his belt to appreciate the demands on a 40 year old man with a demanding and stressful career and two children. He’s been training to a model that would probably work well on a young pro.
Krytons been doing VO2 max intervals multiple times a week since November as part of a ‘reverse periodization’ process. As the season has progressed some of the intervals have been replaced by long Z2 riding but by then in my opinion the damage had been done.
From the start of race season Kryters has been complaining of fatigue and ‘unexplained’ poor performance. (I’m afraid the statement that your top end has gone is just silly mate after all the high intensity work you’ve done. Your poor xc performance is not due to a specialisation in marathon, it’s down to being worn out.)
I’m frustrated because this is exactly what happened last year and his coach said he’d learnt from it and would persue a more aerobic model this year… and then started up with the vo2 max, five times a week again.

It’s hard to tell your mate he’s getting worse despite all his hours of hard work, but it’s also hard to just step away and leave him too it. I’ve sent plenty of personal messages but I know he struggles to let it go and completely understand why. This is why I’ve posted up on here. Hoping to get a bit of backup from those that know him either in person or from this timeless thread.

Sorry S for sticking my oar in. It’s just because I care.

If it’s not fun then there is no point in doing it. Get yourself well and just ride for fun. If you can’t do that then try a different pastime that you do enjoy.

I like the sound of persuing an aerobic model. I’ll have to have a word with Amalia.

From the start of race season Kryters has been complaining of fatigue and ‘unexplained’ poor performance.

Yet Builth and Llandovery were fine and showed improvement, and as we now know I was carrying Bronchitis around Exmoor.    The MSG events at the beginning of the year were part of a 5hr per week training plan, not tapered or engineered as “races”.  Beastway the same although with more hours in the week.  Both series has additional high level riders at the sharp end also.

My endurance has improved, my muscular endurance has improved, my sprint watts improved.  During Taper last week I did a 30 minutes mixed outdoor session and matched every single one of my highest numbers bar the sprint.

Despite an apparent low immune system I’ve only been ill twice this year – one from norovirus, the other the current Bronchitis.  Now for a man that spends 5 days a week shaking hands, travelling The Tube and generally meeting people ALSO with two kids I don’t consider that to be too bad.

I don’t agree that I’m generally tired and run down.  I have been tired, yes and I’ve not been in optimum condition for XC races, but deliberately so.  Its also worth noting I changed my job to be placed on a pedestal I’ve just been knocked down from – that has been stressful.

I think the hard thing mentally is I’m 20-30th place of 80-100 riders and measuring myself by position.  I need to take TINAS stance and put some measurable personal goals in place, not positional which of course can be affected by many factors.

Do you know what, I think what’s more stressful than anything is talking about it and the constant analysis – my own fault – its getting me down and its difficult to read these posts, but I think a change to anonymity would do me good.

Anyway, how depressing, I’m off to pursue a mix of moretti, steroids and penicillin.

Top tip: don’t get on a plane after that lot.
Next point you can crush most of us riders in here so don’t lose perspective on what you’ve achieved.

As somebody who has absolutely no coaching qualifications, no race history beyond a handful of crits and time trials and no ability to resist a pastry based snack but who does have borderline obsession with coaching podcasts such as Fast-Talk & Trainerroad etc I’m upto 50% certain you need to significantly increase the rest you get. Not just rest from training/racing stress but also just general life stress.

There’s been a few podcasts recently all saying the same thing – compromised immune systems and all your other issues could easily be caused not by overtraining as such but by under resting.

But IANACoach.

I’d be putting the coach on a written warning with those results, Kryton – although he might write you one back 🙂

I appreciate how tough the top 20% guys are in those events, it’s very hard to break in – but your results don’t sound much in advance of what one would get just with unstructured, enthusiastic riding around for training. Caning the turbo like that with a ton of VO2 max work should be delivering an absolute step change in results. I’d take heart that you have the discipline to do it with a busy family life, and just get a new coach who can give you a different approach.

One thing that does seem hard with these marathon events is that they’re quite spaced out, so it’s hard to build momentum if you’re taking them serious. Like you race these very different XC events in between and aren’t competitive and it doesn’t sound that positive. I raced a season of cross last winter – every weekend banging out the same 45 min format and you can see the progress and get some reinforcement going. Same for guys who race road circuits or do open time trials every weekend, feels more like a season of racing.

vo2 max, five times a week

Is that a wee bit of exaggeration for effect, or a genuine description of the training?

As a general guide, I’d say a couple of good interval sessions a week plus a race at the weekend, is enough intensity work for an amateur racer. Any other training during the week should be recovery or endurance that isn’t going into the damage zone.

I think intervals five times a week is too much to recover from (so fitness will ultimately decline) and I don’t think those interval sessions will be very good quality.
I’d recommend less frequent interval work, but when you do it, really do it properly.
Intervals work, but if you do them properly, they are very hard, and usually unpleasant.

What kcr says.

Five VO2 max interval sessions a week? I know a couple of UCI world cup XC riders who wouldn’t train like that, at any point in the year, for the reasons kcr says. Quality is what’s important. Where’s your rest?

How do you and your coach do feedback? Do you just send him data files or do you have a conversation on a regular (like, weekly) basis?

You sound miserable. You are not going to be a professional bike racer, so this has to be fun. Maybe some time not following a training programme but doing what feels right to you (it’ll never feel like enough!) and doing some more racing would let you do away with expectations, work out whether or not you actually enjoy racing (if you don’t actually like it, this will never work out) and decide if the investment you’re making is worth it or not.

Good luck buddy.

Five VO2 max interval sessions a week

Is that a wee bit of exaggeration for effect,

For the sake of the reputation of the very well know and successful company that coaches me – yes of course it is.  I’m done here, thanks for the advice where relevant.

Sorry, I thought that’s what you said. It was five hard interval sessions a week anyway.
Seems like trying to help has not gone down so well.