- This topic has 159 replies, 57 voices, and was last updated 13 years ago by U31.
-
Bike helmet wearing – to be made compulsory………..
-
LHSFree Member
TJ, you are a nurse for a living.
I work in the design, development, analysis, testing and certification of helmets.
As I said earlier, you draw whatever conclusions you like from the tripe you read on no win no fee solicitors websites you pointed to a few weeks back. Whats great about this country is you have a choice.
crikeyFree MemberI work in the design, development, analysis, testing and certification of helmets.
Then you of all people should be able to point us in the direction of some sensible research regarding bicycle helmets and their efficacy?
…and should be able to explain how in the most optional test conditions in Australia, in Canada, when we had a helmet law introduced, why the statistics from those places, at those times, still don't reveal any serious impact from said laws?
Your 'scientific' credentials should allow you to adopt a sceptical approach; show me….
TandemJeremyFree MemberLHS – ther is no need to be offensive. Its not tripe on no win no fee solicitors websites. It good basic research from reputable journals. I gave you many references to them.
However as an industry flack of course you attack anyone who has the temerity to question your badly flawed ideas.
I am not stupid, I know how to read a piece of research. I know when a piece has major design flaws that make it completely untenable.
You have no answer to the criticisms I have made on the research that you quote as gospel which is clearly flawed so you rely on attacking me.
All you state is that any research you don't like is " discredited within the industry" What a suprise! Well your reliance on badly designed seriously flawed research discredits and devalues your opinion.
Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middling Edition
Latest Singletrack VideosFresh Goods Friday 696: The Middlin...stumpynya12Free MemberYep, been here before on several topics but heh lets all feel the lourve. We are all cyclists and good friends really.
T666DOMFull MemberFor what it's worth I wouldn't ride a bike without a helmet, I've cracked a couple, can't say if my bonce has been saved as I've not had the same crash without, but I suspect they offered some protection.
ON the compulsary aspect of helmet wear, it'd be totally unenforceable the Government meddles enough with our lives as it is, freedom of choice, however stupid should be allowed.
TandemJeremyFree MemberCougar – Member
TJ, just so I'm clear;
Is your stance "there is no evidence, therefore we don't know for sure whether helmets work," or is it "there is no evidence, therefore helmets don't work until we prove that they do"?
My stance is that the risks are low, helmets work well at protecting from minor injuries. With major injuries the evidence is much poorer and there is evidence that in some circumstances the helmet may cause and exacerbate injury.
When you study whole populations as helmet wearing rates increase head injury rates do not decrease.
LHSFree MemberYes, deja vu all the time, i was trying hard not to get involved. 🙄
LHS – there is no need to be offensive
I haven't been offensive so please don't play that card.
I merely pointed out that some of the research you referred to are published by people who have an alternative motive – i.e. no win no fee solicitors using the "helmets wouldn't make a difference" card to win more damages for their client.
discredits and devalues your opinion
Who is being offensive??
TandemJeremyFree MemberLHS – Member
I merely pointed out that some of the research you referred to are published by people who have an alternative motive – i.e. no win no fee solicitors using the "helmets wouldn't make a difference" card to win more damages for their client.
this is simply wrong
At one point I gave you an opinion from a person involved in litigation. They are not a no fee no win solicitor. I did not claim this as research. Basic ad hominen argument.
I have given you a lot of references to real research that you just glibly dismiss.
How about answering crikeys point?
crikeyFree MemberI don't think there is any need to see this by taking 'sides', TJ and LHS (and me)….
I presume we would all want the same thing; safer cycling?
I presume we only differ in our respective estimations of the efficiency of helmets?
retro83Free MemberON the compulsary aspect of helmet wear, it'd be totally unenforceable the Government meddles enough with our lives as it is, freedom of choice, however stupid should be allowed.
Would you say the same about wearing a helmet on a motor cycle?
CougarFull MemberWhen you study whole populations as helmet wearing rates increase head injury rates do not decrease.
Which study was this, sorry? Have you got a link?
crikeyFree MemberLHS, one last question please?
The jelly baby counter; will there be a bluetooth version?
😀
Phew, another helmet thread out of the way….
EggboxFree Member"Would you say the same about wearing a helmet on a motor cycle?"
Motorcycles are a little different if they have a registration plate it's pretty difficult to get away with… but without a plate e.g. MX bikes you see plenty on the road with no helmet and no tax or insurance for that matter.
In terms of safety I think the biggest difference is speed. Not many cyclist will have an average speed of over 30 miles an hour..heads tend to get squashed at speeds like that.
mmbFree Membera car came from behind turned left and took me out, i head butted the car but lived because i wore a helmet, only a dick would say it's ok not to wear one if your on the road or just going to the shops!, it only takes a second to get killed so wake up you fu***ng morons
TandemJeremyFree MemberCougar- this one amongst others
Do enforced bicycle helmet laws improve public health?
Robinson DL. . BMJ, 2006;332:722.http://www.cyclehelmets.org/papers/c2024.pdf
If you look around the http://www.cyclehelmets.org/index.html you will find others. Remember your pinch of salt.
http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1146.html has a list of similar papers. With an athens password you can read the entire researh
This effect that there is no decrease in head injury rates when helmet use increase when entire populations are considered is repeated in many places.
simonfbarnesFree MemberI'm not bored but puzzled. TJ speaks with obvious conviction, yet he also believes in brake pad bedding in, for which what evidence I've seen is at best highly equivocal, and his ill informed comments about erosion in places he's never been lead me to question his judgement…
foxyriderFree MemberHelmet wearers – leave em to it until the NHS start charging for treatment to people who have head injuries that didn't wear a helmet 😉
Non-Helmet wearers – carry on I don't give a to$$ its your head 🙂
If you wear a helmet everywhere like me then you just don't care about potential legislation 🙂
TandemJeremyFree Memberfoxyrider – what about those whose injuries are caused or exacerbated by helmets?
retro83Free MemberEggbox – Member
"Would you say the same about wearing a helmet on a motor cycle?"
In terms of safety I think the biggest difference is speed. Not many cyclist will have an average speed of over 30 miles an hour..heads tend to get squashed at speeds like that.
I meant in terms of safety rather than getting away with it 🙂
Is the speed argument really relevant considering that cyclists can be riding alongside drivers doing 70mph+ ?
RealManFree MemberI had a big crash coming down Ventoux two weeks ago. 30mph, wheels locked up, went off the road, landed on my head on some rocks.
Now, I don't think anyone is going to argue that going 30mph into a load of rocks head first is going to be fun. However, I suffered no head injury at all. My helmet has several cracks in it, on the top, and at the side.
However, I did manage to tear/pull my Trapezius muscle pretty badly in the crash.
Is this the injuries helmets can cause you are talking about TJ?
I think its safe to say that my helmet saved me from a fairly massive head injury. Now, if it did that at the price of a pulled muscle, I think that's fair.
Maybe helmets can cause injuries as well as prevent them, but I think in the majority of times the injury they prevent is worse then the injury they cause.
molgripsFree MemberTJ, can I ask something?
Do you ever wonder why every discussion you get involved in turns into a vicious flame war where you accuse everyone of not responding to your arguments, being stupid and attacking you personally?
It's not like that on other threads.
TandemJeremyFree MemberRealman.
There are two main circumstances in which helmet can cause injury.
They increase rotational forces when you hit the ground at an angle. This alters the mechanism of brain injury and causes what is knows as a diffuse axon injury. This is absolutely proven to happen, the prevalence is debatable – one study showed 30% of serious head injuries were caused in this way. ( I would think that far too high tho)
The other is neck strain causing neck injuries from the leverage provide by the helmet
simonfbarnesFree Memberjust because he's paranoid doesn't mean everyone isn't out to get him…
nockmeisterFree MemberSooo exactly how many helmet related injuries have there been. oh and how many head injuries have been reduced through wearing a helmet??
TandemJeremyFree Membernockmeister – no one knows – its one of the flaws in the evidence. The whole issue of helmets causing injury is hotly debated. LHS and those in his camp deny its possible, some research suggests 30% of all serious head injuries to cyclists occur because of the helmets.
My guess would be small single figures %. the other issues is the nature of the injries tend to be different. Unhelemted injuries tend to be focal injuries – one bit of your brain smashed. riotational injuries are generalised thru the entire brain and are much more serous.
Elements of both happen in both types of injury.
Neurosurgeons who understand the mechanisms of brain injury are divided on this
its one are I want significant further research and improvements to the design of helmets
RealManFree MemberThe other is neck strain causing neck injuries from the leverage provide by the helmet
Surely this only applies to full face helmets (eg: heavy helmets). I use an sworks 2d, which is like 250g? And with a full face you should wear a neck brace, right?
They increase rotational forces when you hit the ground at an angle. This alters the mechanism of brain injury and causes what is knows as a diffuse axon injury. This is absolutely proven to happen, the prevalence is debatable – one study showed 30% of serious head injuries were caused in this way.
There be a lot of big words in that there. I'm sure you're right though.
But its the real life thing I think you might be missing out. Unless your riding is all trail centre groomed, then you will get over hanging branches. When you're on someone's wheel, going +15mph on a bit of singletrack, you just can't react quick enough, and you do get a branch to the head occasionally. Helmets do help there I think.
Hate to start up another argument, but I see a similarity in the argument for and against tubeless for mtbing. It stops so many punctures, and has huge advantages, but it has the disadvantage of burping. However, you get punctures more often then you burp, so it works out to be the better solution.
And besides, you'd look pretty dumb with a helmet light duct taped to your head.
pastcaringFree Member@ tj
but what injuries would the same people have if they were not wearing a helmet?
MrSalmonFree Membera car came from behind turned left and took me out, i head butted the car but lived because i wore a helmet, only a dick would say it's ok not to wear one if your on the road or just going to the shops!, it only takes a second to get killed so wake up you fu***ng morons
It potentially only takes a second to get killed while doing all sorts of things but we don't think people are morons if they don't wear helmets while they're doing them.
I don't want to put words in anyone else's mouth but I think it's the way that the risks of a serious injury while riding a bike don't always seem to be viewed as objectively as the risks involved in other activities that bothers people. I think most people would agree that if your head is heading for the tarmac a helmet is probably a good thing but there needs to be some sort of objective assessment of how likely those situations are to arise or we'd never leave the house without a suit of armour on.
The suggestion that cycling is inherently dangerous has two annoying aspects to it IMO: it's not necessarily borne out by evidence, and even if it were to suggest that it's up to the more vulnerable road users to buckle up or get what they deserve is to acknowledge that people in cars are kings of the road who don't have to bother to take care, and that isn't the way forward.
TandemJeremyFree Memberpastcaring – who knows? Its completely impossible to know. It would probably have been different with a different mechanism but its simply stupid to try to say "what if"
As I said above – typically unhelmeted head injuries are focal injuries – involving one part of the brain. typical helmeted head injuries are diffuse affecting the whole brain. Incidence is subject to much debate and causality is hard to show
Its ( to trivialise) sort of – would you rather have a punch or a chinese burn
foxyriderFree MemberSure in this instance it's not the act of cycling that is dangerous its the motorised vehicles that are the dangerous bit 😯
This sounds like the argument for the existance of God – you can't prove it eitherway so therefore God is real 😉
simonfbarnesFree Memberwould you rather have a punch or a chinese bum
Jet Li or Michelle Yeoh ??
simonfbarnesFree Memberyou can't prove it eitherway so therefore God is real
well, you may care to err on the side of caution, even if sceptical …
TandemJeremyFree MemberRealman – sometimes.
I believe they are very good at protecting form minor injuries but that their protections for major injuries is limited.
So I wear one when the risks of crashing are high, I don't when the risks are low.
so I wear on at trail centres, I wear one when ring fast offroad, I wear one for night riding,. I don't wear one on road, ( but I would for an urban rush hour commute) I don't wear one when pootling around offroad.
to me its about evidence based practice and rational risk assessment. For some forms of riding the risks are so low I am prepared to accept them
CougarFull MemberThis effect that there is no decrease in head injury rates when helmet use increase when entire populations are considered is repeated in many places.
Interesting reading. Seems very road-centric though (and, y'know, Australian). Are there any similar reports which deal with mountain biking though?
Where I'm going with this is, it's apples and oranges. According to those stats, random breath-testing for drivers had a significant impact on cycling injuries (which is unsurprising). For all the lunacy I've seen on the trails, I've yet to see an 18-wheeler coming the wrong way up Llandegla's red route.
TandemJeremyFree MemberCougar – another flaw in the research. I have seen very little that relates to offroad biking.
My belief is that helmets are actually very effective for the minor injuries that are likely in MTBing – lacerations bumps and bruises
However risk compensation ( where you feel safer so take mnore risks) might be significant in MTBing
The topic ‘Bike helmet wearing – to be made compulsory………..’ is closed to new replies.