• This topic has 159 replies, 57 voices, and was last updated 13 years ago by U31.
Viewing 40 posts - 81 through 120 (of 160 total)
  • Bike helmet wearing – to be made compulsory………..
  • LHS
    Free Member

    TJ, you are a nurse for a living.

    I work in the design, development, analysis, testing and certification of helmets.

    As I said earlier, you draw whatever conclusions you like from the tripe you read on no win no fee solicitors websites you pointed to a few weeks back. Whats great about this country is you have a choice.

    crikey
    Free Member

    I work in the design, development, analysis, testing and certification of helmets.

    Then you of all people should be able to point us in the direction of some sensible research regarding bicycle helmets and their efficacy?

    …and should be able to explain how in the most optional test conditions in Australia, in Canada, when we had a helmet law introduced, why the statistics from those places, at those times, still don't reveal any serious impact from said laws?

    Your 'scientific' credentials should allow you to adopt a sceptical approach; show me….

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    LHS – ther is no need to be offensive. Its not tripe on no win no fee solicitors websites. It good basic research from reputable journals. I gave you many references to them.

    However as an industry flack of course you attack anyone who has the temerity to question your badly flawed ideas.

    I am not stupid, I know how to read a piece of research. I know when a piece has major design flaws that make it completely untenable.

    You have no answer to the criticisms I have made on the research that you quote as gospel which is clearly flawed so you rely on attacking me.

    All you state is that any research you don't like is " discredited within the industry" What a suprise! Well your reliance on badly designed seriously flawed research discredits and devalues your opinion.

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    T666DOM
    Full Member

    ever get that feeling of deja vu Tj and LHS!!??

    stumpynya12
    Free Member

    Yep, been here before on several topics but heh lets all feel the lourve. We are all cyclists and good friends really.

    T666DOM
    Full Member

    For what it's worth I wouldn't ride a bike without a helmet, I've cracked a couple, can't say if my bonce has been saved as I've not had the same crash without, but I suspect they offered some protection.

    ON the compulsary aspect of helmet wear, it'd be totally unenforceable the Government meddles enough with our lives as it is, freedom of choice, however stupid should be allowed.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    Cougar – Member

    TJ, just so I'm clear;

    Is your stance "there is no evidence, therefore we don't know for sure whether helmets work," or is it "there is no evidence, therefore helmets don't work until we prove that they do"?

    My stance is that the risks are low, helmets work well at protecting from minor injuries. With major injuries the evidence is much poorer and there is evidence that in some circumstances the helmet may cause and exacerbate injury.

    When you study whole populations as helmet wearing rates increase head injury rates do not decrease.

    LHS
    Free Member

    Yes, deja vu all the time, i was trying hard not to get involved. 🙄

    LHS – there is no need to be offensive

    I haven't been offensive so please don't play that card.

    I merely pointed out that some of the research you referred to are published by people who have an alternative motive – i.e. no win no fee solicitors using the "helmets wouldn't make a difference" card to win more damages for their client.

    discredits and devalues your opinion

    Who is being offensive??

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    LHS – Member

    I merely pointed out that some of the research you referred to are published by people who have an alternative motive – i.e. no win no fee solicitors using the "helmets wouldn't make a difference" card to win more damages for their client.

    this is simply wrong

    At one point I gave you an opinion from a person involved in litigation. They are not a no fee no win solicitor. I did not claim this as research. Basic ad hominen argument.

    I have given you a lot of references to real research that you just glibly dismiss.

    How about answering crikeys point?

    crikey
    Free Member

    I don't think there is any need to see this by taking 'sides', TJ and LHS (and me)….

    I presume we would all want the same thing; safer cycling?

    I presume we only differ in our respective estimations of the efficiency of helmets?

    retro83
    Free Member

    ON the compulsary aspect of helmet wear, it'd be totally unenforceable the Government meddles enough with our lives as it is, freedom of choice, however stupid should be allowed.

    Would you say the same about wearing a helmet on a motor cycle?

    LHS
    Free Member

    To not bore anyone any longer….

    Helmets

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    Agree with you there LHS 🙂

    Cougar
    Full Member

    When you study whole populations as helmet wearing rates increase head injury rates do not decrease.

    Which study was this, sorry? Have you got a link?

    crikey
    Free Member

    LHS, one last question please?

    The jelly baby counter; will there be a bluetooth version?

    😀

    Phew, another helmet thread out of the way….

    Eggbox
    Free Member

    "Would you say the same about wearing a helmet on a motor cycle?"

    Motorcycles are a little different if they have a registration plate it's pretty difficult to get away with… but without a plate e.g. MX bikes you see plenty on the road with no helmet and no tax or insurance for that matter.

    In terms of safety I think the biggest difference is speed. Not many cyclist will have an average speed of over 30 miles an hour..heads tend to get squashed at speeds like that.

    mmb
    Free Member

    a car came from behind turned left and took me out, i head butted the car but lived because i wore a helmet, only a dick would say it's ok not to wear one if your on the road or just going to the shops!, it only takes a second to get killed so wake up you fu***ng morons

    mmb
    Free Member

    sorry double post

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    Cougar- this one amongst others
    Do enforced bicycle helmet laws improve public health?
    Robinson DL. . BMJ, 2006;332:722.

    http://www.cyclehelmets.org/papers/c2024.pdf

    If you look around the http://www.cyclehelmets.org/index.html you will find others. Remember your pinch of salt.

    http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1146.html has a list of similar papers. With an athens password you can read the entire researh

    This effect that there is no decrease in head injury rates when helmet use increase when entire populations are considered is repeated in many places.

    simonfbarnes
    Free Member

    I'm not bored but puzzled. TJ speaks with obvious conviction, yet he also believes in brake pad bedding in, for which what evidence I've seen is at best highly equivocal, and his ill informed comments about erosion in places he's never been lead me to question his judgement…

    foxyrider
    Free Member

    Helmet wearers – leave em to it until the NHS start charging for treatment to people who have head injuries that didn't wear a helmet 😉

    Non-Helmet wearers – carry on I don't give a to$$ its your head 🙂

    If you wear a helmet everywhere like me then you just don't care about potential legislation 🙂

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    foxyrider – what about those whose injuries are caused or exacerbated by helmets?

    retro83
    Free Member

    Eggbox – Member

    "Would you say the same about wearing a helmet on a motor cycle?"

    In terms of safety I think the biggest difference is speed. Not many cyclist will have an average speed of over 30 miles an hour..heads tend to get squashed at speeds like that.

    I meant in terms of safety rather than getting away with it 🙂

    Is the speed argument really relevant considering that cyclists can be riding alongside drivers doing 70mph+ ?

    RealMan
    Free Member

    I had a big crash coming down Ventoux two weeks ago. 30mph, wheels locked up, went off the road, landed on my head on some rocks.

    Now, I don't think anyone is going to argue that going 30mph into a load of rocks head first is going to be fun. However, I suffered no head injury at all. My helmet has several cracks in it, on the top, and at the side.

    However, I did manage to tear/pull my Trapezius muscle pretty badly in the crash.

    Is this the injuries helmets can cause you are talking about TJ?

    I think its safe to say that my helmet saved me from a fairly massive head injury. Now, if it did that at the price of a pulled muscle, I think that's fair.

    Maybe helmets can cause injuries as well as prevent them, but I think in the majority of times the injury they prevent is worse then the injury they cause.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    TJ, can I ask something?

    Do you ever wonder why every discussion you get involved in turns into a vicious flame war where you accuse everyone of not responding to your arguments, being stupid and attacking you personally?

    It's not like that on other threads.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    Realman.

    There are two main circumstances in which helmet can cause injury.

    They increase rotational forces when you hit the ground at an angle. This alters the mechanism of brain injury and causes what is knows as a diffuse axon injury. This is absolutely proven to happen, the prevalence is debatable – one study showed 30% of serious head injuries were caused in this way. ( I would think that far too high tho)

    The other is neck strain causing neck injuries from the leverage provide by the helmet

    simonfbarnes
    Free Member

    just because he's paranoid doesn't mean everyone isn't out to get him…

    nockmeister
    Free Member

    Sooo exactly how many helmet related injuries have there been. oh and how many head injuries have been reduced through wearing a helmet??

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    nockmeister – no one knows – its one of the flaws in the evidence. The whole issue of helmets causing injury is hotly debated. LHS and those in his camp deny its possible, some research suggests 30% of all serious head injuries to cyclists occur because of the helmets.

    My guess would be small single figures %. the other issues is the nature of the injries tend to be different. Unhelemted injuries tend to be focal injuries – one bit of your brain smashed. riotational injuries are generalised thru the entire brain and are much more serous.

    Elements of both happen in both types of injury.

    Neurosurgeons who understand the mechanisms of brain injury are divided on this

    its one are I want significant further research and improvements to the design of helmets

    RealMan
    Free Member

    The other is neck strain causing neck injuries from the leverage provide by the helmet

    Surely this only applies to full face helmets (eg: heavy helmets). I use an sworks 2d, which is like 250g? And with a full face you should wear a neck brace, right?

    They increase rotational forces when you hit the ground at an angle. This alters the mechanism of brain injury and causes what is knows as a diffuse axon injury. This is absolutely proven to happen, the prevalence is debatable – one study showed 30% of serious head injuries were caused in this way.

    There be a lot of big words in that there. I'm sure you're right though.

    But its the real life thing I think you might be missing out. Unless your riding is all trail centre groomed, then you will get over hanging branches. When you're on someone's wheel, going +15mph on a bit of singletrack, you just can't react quick enough, and you do get a branch to the head occasionally. Helmets do help there I think.

    Hate to start up another argument, but I see a similarity in the argument for and against tubeless for mtbing. It stops so many punctures, and has huge advantages, but it has the disadvantage of burping. However, you get punctures more often then you burp, so it works out to be the better solution.

    And besides, you'd look pretty dumb with a helmet light duct taped to your head.

    pastcaring
    Free Member

    @ tj

    but what injuries would the same people have if they were not wearing a helmet?

    MrSalmon
    Free Member

    a car came from behind turned left and took me out, i head butted the car but lived because i wore a helmet, only a dick would say it's ok not to wear one if your on the road or just going to the shops!, it only takes a second to get killed so wake up you fu***ng morons

    It potentially only takes a second to get killed while doing all sorts of things but we don't think people are morons if they don't wear helmets while they're doing them.

    I don't want to put words in anyone else's mouth but I think it's the way that the risks of a serious injury while riding a bike don't always seem to be viewed as objectively as the risks involved in other activities that bothers people. I think most people would agree that if your head is heading for the tarmac a helmet is probably a good thing but there needs to be some sort of objective assessment of how likely those situations are to arise or we'd never leave the house without a suit of armour on.

    The suggestion that cycling is inherently dangerous has two annoying aspects to it IMO: it's not necessarily borne out by evidence, and even if it were to suggest that it's up to the more vulnerable road users to buckle up or get what they deserve is to acknowledge that people in cars are kings of the road who don't have to bother to take care, and that isn't the way forward.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    pastcaring – who knows? Its completely impossible to know. It would probably have been different with a different mechanism but its simply stupid to try to say "what if"

    As I said above – typically unhelmeted head injuries are focal injuries – involving one part of the brain. typical helmeted head injuries are diffuse affecting the whole brain. Incidence is subject to much debate and causality is hard to show

    Its ( to trivialise) sort of – would you rather have a punch or a chinese burn

    foxyrider
    Free Member

    Sure in this instance it's not the act of cycling that is dangerous its the motorised vehicles that are the dangerous bit 😯

    This sounds like the argument for the existance of God – you can't prove it eitherway so therefore God is real 😉

    RealMan
    Free Member

    TJ do you wear a helmet?

    simonfbarnes
    Free Member

    would you rather have a punch or a chinese bum

    Jet Li or Michelle Yeoh ??

    simonfbarnes
    Free Member

    you can't prove it eitherway so therefore God is real

    well, you may care to err on the side of caution, even if sceptical …

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    Realman – sometimes.

    I believe they are very good at protecting form minor injuries but that their protections for major injuries is limited.

    So I wear one when the risks of crashing are high, I don't when the risks are low.

    so I wear on at trail centres, I wear one when ring fast offroad, I wear one for night riding,. I don't wear one on road, ( but I would for an urban rush hour commute) I don't wear one when pootling around offroad.

    to me its about evidence based practice and rational risk assessment. For some forms of riding the risks are so low I am prepared to accept them

    Cougar
    Full Member

    This effect that there is no decrease in head injury rates when helmet use increase when entire populations are considered is repeated in many places.

    Interesting reading. Seems very road-centric though (and, y'know, Australian). Are there any similar reports which deal with mountain biking though?

    Where I'm going with this is, it's apples and oranges. According to those stats, random breath-testing for drivers had a significant impact on cycling injuries (which is unsurprising). For all the lunacy I've seen on the trails, I've yet to see an 18-wheeler coming the wrong way up Llandegla's red route.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    Cougar – another flaw in the research. I have seen very little that relates to offroad biking.

    My belief is that helmets are actually very effective for the minor injuries that are likely in MTBing – lacerations bumps and bruises

    However risk compensation ( where you feel safer so take mnore risks) might be significant in MTBing

Viewing 40 posts - 81 through 120 (of 160 total)

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