Mike.... Well.. I think religion is fundamentally a bad thing so I'll have to disagree with you there. I think the world would be a better place without religion.
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Bible bashers
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Posted 3 years ago #
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Excluding on the grounds of religion is allowed and it is not questioned as religion seems to sit out side the normal scope of the law and is beyond question.
I agree with that, by the way.
I think religion is fundamentally a bad thing so I'll have to disagree with you there. I think the world would be a better place without religion.
I see it more as people using religion to justify doing bad things, rather than religion being bad in and of itself.
Posted 3 years ago # -
I'm a bit confused about the school thing - don't have kids so partly why I guess. These schools that only allow kids in with specific beliefs - are they funded by the relevant church? I think that must be the case but if so then why can't they choose who attends?
Posted 3 years ago # -
I'm a bit confused about the school thing - don't have kids so partly why I guess. These schools that only allow kids in with specific beliefs - are they funded by the relevant church? I think that must be the case but if so then why can't they choose who attends?
They're only part-funded by the church.
I think academies are a bigger scandal, but most of the education system is in a mess.
Posted 3 years ago # -
No school can discriminate on grounds of religion. It is illegal. Only schools for children with special needs can be 'selective' and impose specific entry requirements. If your child is denied a places at a faith school, complain.
Of course, they will probably be able to have a 'perfectly legitimate reason' why your little
bastardangel wasn't selected..Posted 3 years ago # -
No school can discriminate on grounds of religion.
Of course those of a religous persuasion would argue that's it's god's will as to who get's in
Posted 3 years ago # -
Actually, I may be talking complete bollocks!
Bloody confusing laws on discrimination in education.Seems to be a right minefield. But I'm pretty sure faith schools (with the possible exception of private ones) have to open their entry to children from other/no faiths.
I still agree with Mark on that one, though. Take religion out of the classroom, unless it's in the context of comparative religious education.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Are other groups allowed to fund schools?
Are there schools set up for other religions, say Muslims?
Posted 3 years ago # -
Mark,I was basing my post on the factthat up my way the Catholic schools (no CofS)have feeder primarys, they take placing requests from Catholics outside their catchment, but in the main they take what they are given without choosing.Still the best inner-city school I taught in.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Are there schools set up for other religions, say Muslims?
Yes.
Posted 3 years ago # -
OK, so religious organisations look after their members in various ways including funding schools for them. They prefer not to let kids into those schools who aren't part of their organisation. Got to say this all sounds fair to me!
Posted 3 years ago # -
Except they are only part funded by the churches.. And only to a very small degree. All the teachers in faith schools are on the public payroll. I know as I was one. I was allowed to teach in a CofE school as a teacher but was not able to apply to be a deputy or higher. The upkeep of the buildings is funded by the local authority too.. That all comes out of the public purse and accounts for over 90% of the schools budget. So our tax is paying for these schools to exist. If they were fully funded by the church they would be classed as private. They are not. They are still state funded schools and we are all paying for them to exist.
So.. these 90% state funded schools are allowed to discriminate their intake of not just the children but also the staff. The teachers job list (known as the white list) that is circulated by each local authority every week to all schools lists all schools vacancies apart from those from the private sector. The requirements for being a deputy or headteacher at every catholic or CofE school are laid down in that list and without exception the church schools stipulate that to be a deputy or a head teacher at their school you must be a 'practicing' christian. They each require that when you submit your references with the job application that one of the references MUST be from your church.
That, without question, is discrimination on the basis of religious belief sanctioned by the state. Apparently it is perfectly legal.
Posted 3 years ago # -
brilliant rant!
The reason religious people provoke unease amongst normal humans is that we can't predict what course they will take next.
If they are prepared to believe all that jessus godd allah etc stuff, then we have no evidence at all that that they will respond rationally to other issues.
I also find it all rather sad that children, who so much require us to teach them morals and way of thinking, are being indroctrinated the world over. I work steadily to un-do all the christian stuff imposed on my own child through the state education system. What I find alarming is the depth of belief of some of my little girls friends. I have on a few occasions needed to make made it quite clear to them (if this topic ever comes up during playtime at our house), that they are in fact being deeply deluded. It comes as quite a shock, but I remember my own childhood and find it quite disturbing that until I was old enough to know better (perhaps 11 or 12), I too though there might be something behind it. Wisdom only comes with age, and it's deeply wrong for children to suffer this stuff.
I found it most uplifting when I burnt my school bible shortly after that age!
Posted 3 years ago # -
[The reason religious people provoke unease amongst normal humans is that we can't predict what course they will take next.]Thats funny, I was going to do a bit of marking, teach last period, then get the train home(too frosty for bike just now)I would suggest in the 20 plus years I have been a Christian,I have generally behaved in a pretty normal fashion. So what is your solution Carrot? Pehaps ban anybody who has ANY profession of belief from positions of responsibility? Come to think of it, burning a bible just to display your rejection of the Christian faith is not exactly what I would call rational behaviour.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Pehaps ban anybody who has ANY profession of belief from positions of responsibility?
I'd settle for allowing the rest of us with no belief in a deity to have the same access to those positions of responsibility that currently exist only for people of 'faith'.
Come to think of it, burning a bible just to display your rejection of the Christian faith is not exactly what I would call rational behaviour.
That would be symbolic... something religion is not averse to doing on a very regular basis.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Posted 3 years ago # -
That would be symbolic... something religion is not averse to doing on a very regular basis
even if the thing being burnt is human
Posted 3 years ago # -
I'd settle for allowing the rest of us with no belief in a deity to have the same access to those positions of responsibility that currently exist only for people of 'faith'.
Seems fairy muff to me.
Posted 3 years ago # -
IME of Catholic schools, If a place is available and that place is requested by and child, whatever religion they come from, they cannot be refused - FACT
Posted 3 years ago # -
Control of religious schools goes deeper still than public funding and control of the entry requirements. The Governing bodies of church schools are directly controlled by the Parish priest who interviews and recommends (in effect final say) of who sits on the body. More and more control over curriculum, budgets and personnel is being handed to Governing bodies.
Posted 3 years ago # -
So the schools are party funded by the religious organisation - why do they have so much power over who is allowed entry? I guess some agreement exists with the state that in return for funding they get control over entry? If that's the case then blame the government not the religion.
mountaincarrot - does it matter that the default position of many schools is that they teach Christianity as if it's reality? My schools took that approach and can't say that I've been negatively affected in anyway. Actually, I'm glad of it as I have knowledge of something that, rightly or wrongly, has played a part in this country's history and continues to have influence. Maybe I'd be more fearfull if I didn't have the knowledge I have?
Posted 3 years ago # -
Those positions of responsibility, what,3 Deputes and one Head Teacher per school? Seems fair to me in a school that openly claims to be a faith school. Taking into account your views, would you really want one of those posts anyway Mark?
As for the symbolic burning of materials, which religion does on a regular basis. This thread was started about Christians, a few of us have dipped in, does anything posted suggest that we spend our time burning rock cd's or blowing up the abortion clinic?Posted 3 years ago # -
As for the symbolic burning of materials, which religion does on a regular basis.
I think Mark meant symbolism in general, rather than burning things.
Communion is symbolic. Except when Catholics do it when the wafers and wine turn into human flesh and blood, obviously.
Posted 3 years ago # -
I'd settle for allowing the rest of us with no belief in a deity to have the same access to those positions of responsibility that currently exist only for people of 'faith'.
Is this the start of your campaign to be the next pope?
I think some discrimination on religous ground will need to be allowed, otherwise we'll see churches being sued because they didn't give the vicar's job to a Stanist*.
*I mistyped Satanist, but I liked the idea that someone would worship Stan, so I left it.
Posted 3 years ago # -
not all faith schools give their pupils an academic advantage.
I can certainly vouch for that - the Catholic school I went to had a far lower academic standard than the school I would have gone to otherwise. Partly due to the fact its location was such that it picked up a lot of thick non-Catholic kids in its catchment area, partly due to the fact that there were two far better single sex Catholic schools very close by which the brighter kids tended to get sent to. IIRC the boys version was fee paying though, and we were poor.Didn't really do me any harm in the long run, as I wouldn't have got into a better university than I did, but I suspect I might have enjoyed life a bit more without being in mixed set classes in the first couple of years with some real thickies.
Posted 3 years ago # -
I think some discrimination on religous ground will need to be allowed,
Fine.. just not in places or positions of power that directly influence and/or are paid for out of a purse paid into by the whole of society.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Fine.. just not in places or positions of power that directly influence and/or are paid for out of a purse paid into by the whole of society.
Agreed.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Ooh - checking posting numbers, my last must have been #200 - how exciting, fairly sure I've never had a 200th post before!
Posted 3 years ago # -
Ooh - checking posting numbers, my last must have been #200 - how exciting, fairly sure I've never had a 200th post before!
Go back and add a "200!" to it while you still have the edit option.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Go back and add a "200!" to it while you still have the edit option.
I realised just seconds too late - when I went back it said "Posted 15 minutes ago" and no "EDIT" link
Posted 3 years ago # -
Shame. I managed to get "200!" onto the January Beard thread. That's twice as good, because I started the thread as well
Posted 3 years ago # -
Mine was my first post on this thread, which must be fairly unusual for a 200th post.
(do you think if we chat OT for long enough we can kill this monster?)
Posted 3 years ago # -
Won't beat the Swinley thread that got to 400 or something. The new forum organisation seems to create less duplicate threads and more long threads.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Aracer, I wasn't referring so much to the variable quality of schools, more to the propensity of some faith schools to start shoe-horning the more preposterous aspects of their beliefs into the national curriculum. It's already happening in some places and I really hope it doesn't happen here. No matter how benign you think religion is, there are always some people who successfully use it as a vehicle for their own loony opinions.
Posted 3 years ago #
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