Consuming CHO and protein during the early phases of recovery has been shown to positively affect subsequent exercise performance and could be of specific benefit for athletes involved in multiple training or competition sessions on the same or consecutive days.

does not say how big a benefit and obviously does not apply to those of us who ride a couple of times a week

Dietary guidelines for achieving optimal muscle glycogen storage after prolonged exercise have been given in terms of absolute carbohydrate (CHO) intake (8-10 g.kg-1.day-1). However, it is of further interest to determine whether the addition of fat and protein to carbohydrate feedings affects muscle glycogen storage. Eight well-trained triathletes [23.1 +/- 2.0 (SE) yr; 74.0 +/- 3.4 kg; peak O2 consumption = 4.7 +/- 0.4 l/min] undertook an exercise trial (2 h at 75% peak O2 consumption, followed by four 30-s sprints) on three occasions, each 1 wk apart. For 24 h after each trial, the subjects rested and were assigned to the following diets in randomized order: control (C) diet (high glycemic index CHO foods; CHO = 7 g.kg-1.day-1), added fat and protein (FP) diet (C diet + 1.6 g.kg-1.day-1 fat + 1.2 g.kg-1.day-1 protein), and matched-energy diet [C diet + 4.8 g.kg-1.day-1 additional CHO (Polycose) to match the additional energy in the FP diet]. Meals were eaten at t = 0, 4, 8, and 21 h of recovery. The total postprandial incremental plasma glucose area was significantly reduced after the FP diet (P < 0.05). Serum free fatty acid and plasma triglyceride responses were significantly elevated during the FP trial (P < 0.05). There were no differences between trials in muscle glycogen storage over 24 h (C, 85.8 +/- 2.7 mmol/kg wet wt; FP, 80.5 +/- 8.2 mmol/kg wet wt; matched-energy, 87.9 +/- 7.0 mmol/kg wet wt)

swo if I read that right carbs worked, adding protein or fat made no differnce

Anyway

After watching those vids I found this on Myprotiens site, seems perfect for post ride/workout recovery

No one seems to have mentioned age related effects yet. When I was a young whippersnapper a large dominos pepperoni and half a dozen beers was fine and dandy to see me riding strongly the next day. Now at 40 if I don’t get something decent to eat or drink as soon as I get off my bike I’m done for the next day. Sample size of one but no double-blind randomised large scale experiment on anyone who isn’t me would convince me to skip a recovery drink nowadays. Whether it’s a ‘scientific’ shake or just a banana blended in some milk is immaterial as long as I get ‘something’. Convenience trumps most else.

speccyguy – thats the point – all you need are some accessible carbs shortly after exercise.

Banana in milk would be very good for this

If I finish a ride in a car park then I won’t have milk handy.. and in that case a shake is more convenient. I forget the original question. The answer is have something, something is better than nothing.

Yup – keep well fuelled up with carbs both high and low GI and have some after you finish

I think im going wit sky, garmin amd the experts protien advice tbh, although im adding more carbs.

Despite the fact the science says no benefit? IIRC some testing showed milkshakes to be as good even those bottles of off the peg stuff?

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/sportives/article/sp-Sportive-Tips—Post-event-nutrition-0

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/knowledge/article/izn20130108-Sportive-R-R–Maximise-your-post-ride-recovery-0

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/a-postexercise-nutrition-tip-chug-chocolate-milk-with-caution/article1343179/

2 x 20, Soy protien isolate and a Tesco’s Jam doughnut. How does that measure up? 😀

2×20 what? Bensons? 😉

Far too much over thinking going on here. The general aversion of protein drinks and love of banana milk is also spectacular – you could just have milk and a banana which has some real nutritional value.

On a serious note though just aim to keep your daily calorie in take a little higher on the days where you are exercising or on the bike. The more intense your activity, the more you increase your calories to compensate. The sooner you can get real food inside you the better, but for those that struggle to eat soon after exercise then shakes are a good option but look for an option where the nutritional macros or protein, carbohydrate and fat match what you would consume in a meal. That may look like a 30/60/10 split as an example.

If you’re out for longer than 3 hours then I would certainly be entertaining eating food whilst on the go to keep your daily calorie consumption constant and to be replenishing muscle glycogen and blood nitrogen levels via amino acids (breaking down of protein). Either of these get too low then your body can enter a catabolic state and start to breakdown muscle tissue which would be negative for performance and impact recovery.

Hydration is key for good digestion as poor hydration will hamper digestion resulting in poor absorption of nutrients and potentially some discomfort in the stomach. Always choose hydration over eating wherever possible, drinking little and often if out for a prolonged period of time.

Just have a Scotch Egg…prove to me that won’t have the same benefit

After reading the Wiki, and learning about the slow release benefits (in the Vids above) on Whey protein and its added weight loss and health benefits I’ve bought a kilo of that for £12 in Mocha flavour.

I’ll combine it with a cake for Carbs. 🙂

Whey protein is not slow releasing. The whole point of whey protein is that it’s easily digested and broken down for quick absorption of amino acids into the blood steam. Isolate or quicker still and then you have products like peptopro or amino acids that are at the top of the tree. A slow release protein powder source would be milk protein or micro cellular casein. You could slow it down a little by adding a good fat source to it such as flak seeds or a spoonful of nut oil or peanut butter.

Whey protein is a byproduct of the dairy industry. Huge profits to be made by selling this waste product to gullible folk

tjagain – Member
Whey protein is a byproduct of the dairy industry. Huge profits to be made by selling this waste product to gullible folk

For big brands such as Maxi Muscle, USN, etc there is a modest amount of margin made for sure, but no where as much as you may think. From the online suppliers its far more cut throat with margins per kg of only 3-5% due to rising costs from dairies as a results of demand exceeding supply. Far more profit to be made from blends like weight gain. Soy based powders have a far greater profit margin for what is a greatly inferior product.

Well, £12.50 for 40 servings vs minimum 80p a time for some chocolate milk I’m sure even TJ can see that I’m making a sound financially based decision at least. I dont feel very gullable. On top of that I get the BAA and Leucine which as alextemper says makes the Whey more of a quality benefit than the Soy I’m currently using.

So OP exercises late at night and then wonders why his legs are screwed later !!?!

As above in your teens/20’s you can exercise how and when you want. In your 40’s + doing silly things like exercise at 9pm and then going to bed after just doesn’t work that well.

OP rather than buying recovery products, surly the answer would be exercise earlier in the day, stretch loads, foam roller loads, go for massages often, and eat a balanced diet, and plan recovery rides/rest days. Of course all that is not really possible is it, so the easy option is to find an excuse and solve it with a ‘recovery product’

Again what’s wrong with a banana and milk?

Not all whey protein magic powders are the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tCml6wtqrY
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tCml6wtqrY[/video]

http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Pharmacy/Pages/Body-building-and-sports-supplements-the-dangers.aspx

Why so agressive FD, get out of bed the wrong side?

I have a family and I travel around the country for work on a daily basis. My exercise opportunities – 8hrs training a week – are pre 6am, post 8pm or lunchtime if working from home. I use a foam roller, my wife is a sports masseur and I eat a pretty healthy diet where i can.

Not sure what your issue is, no-ones forcing you to buy one and i’m not spending your wages. And my legs aren’t “screwed” btw.

Sorry wasn’t suppose to be aggressive, just pointing out the stuff that people think is less important than a protein shake 🙂

Hugs and kisses all round 🙂 🙂

I thought we all agreed a pint of bull semen was the best solution last time…

I thought we all agreed a pint of bull semen was the best solution last time…

Does it come in banana flavour?

Whey protein is a byproduct of the dairy industry. Huge profits to be made by selling this waste product to gullible folk

Far too much over thinking going on here. The general aversion of protein drinks and love of banana milk is also spectacular – you could just have milk and a banana which has some real nutritional value.

Just have a Scotch Egg…prove to me that won’t have the same benefit

I’m more in the latter camp… or really in the “eat something” camp
Most of the specialist stuff the claimed gains are all a bit vague and inconclusive.

The first question I have is if we know the ideal protein amino acid makeup then unless all we are consuming is that specific protein then its no longer the ideal mix if we eat anything else.

It might be different if you have team doctors and team nutritionists taking blood samples 12x a day and tailoring every nutrition intake… but for most of us we have eaten other stuff and if we didn’t then a lot of that protein is going to be used to renew our glycogen not for muscle repair.

The second thing is whey and soy protein are not “harmless”, both are major allergens… and whereby some people are more or less sensitive consuming large amounts of either is unlikely to be preferable.

Little or no research (and even that that exists couched in disclaimers) seems to indicate a significant proven real world benefit over eating a varied diet… whereas lots of research shows the negative effects of reliance of whey or soy protein.

So my conclusion is if you use protein drinks vary them according to the major protein anyway.(don’t make soy or whey the major source of protein in your diet overall).. if sometimes you can eat a scotch egg instead or a tuna sandwich or whatever then eat something instead anyway

Nearly every wonder-food over the last 30 years has been proven then dis-proven or longer term negative effects found then back to half way… with a “use in moderation” …

OP rather than buying recovery products, surly the answer would be exercise earlier in the day

You so funny 🙂

“What’s that, kids? You want time with Daddy? Nah, screw that, I’m going riding! See ya!”

Re the “wonder food” comment – does anyone really believe that level of marketing hype? I certainly don’t. I was under the impression that taking some carbs immediately after exercise helps rebuild glycogen stores more quickly (even TJ agrees with this); and all the protein does is help absorb the carbohydrate more quickly.

TBH not sure if it does, but it definitely helps keep the munchies under control. Again, I’d think that’s hard to argue with.

It’s also not that expensive if you mix your own from bulk. The Torq stuff, that does contain more controversial stuff, but it does seem to help anecdotally. I suspect it’s the ribose in it.

Another can of worms right there 🙂

Re the “wonder food” comment – does anyone really believe that level of marketing hype? I certainly don’t.

Depends what you mean by “really believe” …. on the whole people like to believe what they want to believe.

I was under the impression that taking some carbs immediately after exercise helps rebuild glycogen stores more quickly

It seems long established that eating does this 😀

Just based on personal observation, when I’m riding with the kid (who’s glycogen store is obviously smaller) I chuck carbs into him whilst we ride… especially the first couple of hours then it’s usually lunch and then he’s digesting a big high protein lunch..(usually a M&S chicken and bacon wrap from the BP garage on the way)

The carbs make a very noticeable difference to the ride (speed, duration and irritability)… and given I’m riding alongside a kid it’s easy to see as I’m not (overly) taxed myself.

After half believing half of the wonder food hype decades ago I’m way more sceptical now…

It seems long established that eating does this

Nowhere near as well. You could eat something really sugary, which also works, but sugar is a bit of an addictive substance.

After half believing half of the wonder food hype decades ago I’m way more sceptical now.

You just said carbs help him ride? So why the scepticism?

Carbs whilst riding is simple. It’s just liquid food that’s easy to digest. Nothing wonder about that. And it’s much cheaper than Haribo.

don’t make soy or whey the major source of protein in your diet overall

Quite. Whilst on the road intend to look quite hard for alternatives eg Pret protien pots (egg avacodo and spinach) fish and chicken etc…

molgrips – Member
OP rather than buying recovery products, surly the answer would be exercise earlier in the day
You so funny

“What’s that, kids? You want time with Daddy? Nah, screw that, I’m going riding! See ya!”

Re the “wonder food” comment – does anyone really believe that level of marketing hype? I certainly don’t. I was under the impression that taking some carbs immediately after exercise helps rebuild glycogen stores more quickly (even TJ agrees with this); and all the protein does is help absorb the carbohydrate more quickly.

TBH not sure if it does, but it definitely helps keep the munchies under control. Again, I’d think that’s hard to argue with.

It’s also not that expensive if you mix your own from bulk. The Torq stuff, that does contain more controversial stuff, but it does seem to help anecdotally. I suspect it’s the ribose in it.

Another can of worms right there

Family life is by far the biggest factor that affects when we can exercise and ability to recover and there is a blissful ignorance for those yet to take the plunge or perhaps be fully involved. Personally I get up at 5 ish and train early before kids are up and that’s usually on 6 hours of broken sleep if they’re up in the night and if the youngest needs a feed. If I’m doing 5-a-side football then we finish up at 10pm but I’ll make a sure I’ve eaten before hand and generally skip any food after unless I feel particularly drained and knock back a shake or have a flapjack or nuts.

To correct you on the protein comment, it does not affect the rate of carbohydrate absorption but carbohydrates themselves, especially in simple, sugar form, can help speed up the rate at which other nutrients are transported around the body by what’s known as a shuttling effect. As you correctly say, protein can help you feel fuller for longer (more a slow release protein powder or solid food).

The Ribose can indeed help with muscles feeling more energised as it is a key factor in the Krebs Cycle but tbh you would be needing to buy bulk and supplement your own rather than from a proprietary blend where the amounts of key ingredients are generally too small to make that much appreciable difference.

The simplest practice really, whether you exercise or not is to keep blood insulin levels steady throughout the waking day and to avoid unnecessary peaks and troughs where possible. This is a trail and error process and will vary for each individual and can also vary in an inviduals baseline depending on their on going eating habilts, muscle mass, body fat mass, sleep, hormone levels, etc. Add into the mix also having to compensate before, during and after moderate to rigerous exercise.

I can very well say eat this, eat that, it works for me, but that may not work for you or may do with some tweaking. If you try to eat relatively clean, avoid processed foods for the most part but allow yourself an off day once a week, you’re off to a good start. The rest is then down to changing things depending on how you feel based on energy levels, quality of sleep, how your performance and body composition may be changing,

Can’t resist commenting on this thread.
It’s my belief, and I have found some internet opinions that agree with me, that by eating well and normally, there is always plenty of protein in your gut in various stages of digestion.

After a ride I scoff something sweet as that is what I’m usually craving so I listen to my body. Other than that, lots of water and a lie down for 30 mins is the best recovery I know.

Nowhere near as well. You could eat something really sugary, which also works, but sugar is a bit of an addictive substance.

Yep but a little doesn’t really matter … I prefer he eats something else but if its a banana or fruity type naked bar or nothing then a couple 1-2 a week isn’t such a big deal… I’m even known to let him have 50% fruit juice/50% water or a kitkat when riding but he doesn’t drink/eat it hardly any other time.

I used to be a real anti-sugar fanatic… now I’m known to have a bit once in a while… I even had some chocolate at Easter… (very rare for me)
We don’t have any fizzy drinks in the house… but I don’t lose sleep if he gets some at a kids party etc.

You just said carbs help him ride? So why the scepticism?

I’m just sceptical about wonder-foods… carbs are a decent energy source for someone who exercises … protein we need to build and repair muscles… and we have a fairly high fat breakfast before riding

The banana and naked bars have a decent amount of fibre, even the kit kat does… however “wonder foods” nearly always start off with some quasi-science

Soy protein is a good example… one claim was it reduces PMT and this was based on assumptions “Japanese women eat lots of soy” and “Japanese women don’t suffer PMT” .. both were wrong… staying in Japan we can talk Sushi … where both the rice is coated with carcinogenic talc and the fish is high in mercury…

Soy protein also has a good amino acid mix for a vegetable protein….
However … even if Japanese people were getting a large amount of their protein from un-fermented Soy (which they weren’t) they are not JUST eating that… rice has protein … so even if Soy was perfect in the stomach it’s mixed up with rice and fish…

A bit of sugar on occasion isn’t so bad… Almonds are great for protein and fibre but have high arsenic… some fatty fish is great but too much and you get more mercury etc.

So my point really is extremes of anything tend to end up having more side effects than a bit of everything. I still think ideally sugar should be WAY WAY lower than a typical UK diet… but don’t think that should stop people eating SOME fruit…

I’m just sceptical about wonder-foods… carbs are a decent energy source for someone who exercises … protein we need to build and repair muscles… and we have a fairly high fat breakfast before riding

So am I!

What you say about carbs and protein is true. And taking fast-absorbed carbs and proten immediately after a ride helps speed up recovery. That’s all it is. No-one on this thread is claiming magic wonder incredibleness.

My point about sugar is that if I eat sugary things, I end up wanting lots more. It’s just too delicious. Recovery drink is not delicious enough to want more 🙂

What you say about carbs and protein is true. And taking fast-absorbed carbs and proten immediately after a ride helps speed up recovery. That’s all it is. No-one on this thread is claiming magic wonder incredibleness.

I’m just saying that a tuna sandwich or even a burger and fries (etc.) contains protein and carbs … so if someone has the option try and eat something resembling “real food” instead of always going for a protein shake and specifically one that is soy or whey based.

If you really can’t then sure go for a protein shake but try not to make it your mainstay…

My point about sugar is that if I eat sugary things, I end up wanting lots more. It’s just too delicious.

It’s not simply delicious … indeed I don’t eat much and sugar-sweet is a bit unpleasant for me taste wise… but the sugar itself then stimulates the body’s pleasure centres … and the association of that with “sweet” is why we get cravings. (If I remember sugar is serotonin – I could google but..)

Gluten and Casein are also addictive … both are classed as exorphins and they bind to the bodies endorphin receptors like heroine only not so perfectly…

This is why McDo’s etc. pump out gluten smells into the air conditioning rather than meat smells…. or why putting a loaf of bread in the oven is meant to help sell a house… and why casein + sugar is such an addictive combo…

My point really is to try and rely as little as possible on mono-protein shakes etc. and use it when real food isn’t available rather than part of a regime where it is intrinsically linked to training (and endorphin release)

I’m just saying that a tuna sandwich or even a burger and fries (etc.) contains protein and carbs

Yes but it’s a lot harder to absorb than the drink. There’s a window of 20 minutes after your stop where your body is in a state that can get energy to your muscles really quickly. If your sandwich takes an hour to digest, you’ll miss it and recovery will take a bit longer.

I might the shake after a ride, and then the sandwich or real meal a little later. I will be fuller and more satisfied the whole evening (and not want to snack) and better recovered the next day. I don’t think anyone’s advocating the shake *instead* of a meal.

I’ve tried going on normal food only, but that means riding without much fuel in practice, and that means I’m a lot hungrier the next few days as I deplete my carb stores much more.

I try (not always successful) to eat whole foods around workouts. Training Peaks have some good articles worth catching up on. Luckily I can get my sessions done before 7 though, but if it was a late one I’d prepare a smoothie using Banana, 50/50 Milk & water, handful of frozen Blackcurrants, honey, peanut butter and a bit of whey protein.

Yes but it’s a lot harder to absorb than the drink. There’s a window of 20 minutes after your stop where your body is in a state that can get energy to your muscles really quickly. If your sandwich takes an hour to digest, you’ll miss it and recovery will take a bit longer.

Ah, got you….
But if its energy then carbs would replenish quicker? I’m a few years out of date but I don’t know of any way liquid carried proteins are going to be in the 20 minute from ingestion to use? If that’s the case might be worth a go… though aged 7 his recovery time is less of an issue than trying to get him to build muscle.

We tend to try and solve the time gap by eating 2 hours before the end… it probably has a bit of a hit on the last 2 hours as you’re using energy to digest but then the idea is the nutrients are available when we finish.

I will be fuller and more satisfied the whole evening (and not want to snack) and better recovered the next day.

I guess this is quite individual…. neither me nor junior carry any spare weight so snacking is not discouraged… but we also have family constraints that he has to eat a family dinner when he gets home…. (It’s just not worth arguing about at home)

He eats a reasonable sized protein heavy adult portion after cycling.(200-300g of meat).. but the rest of the week it’s a battle to get him to eat anything (last birthday cake he brought home from a party got thrown away). I think he gets that from me… I can easily forget to eat all day…. (I know its not good for me but I just forget)

I don’t think anyone’s advocating the shake *instead* of a meal.

I don’t think YOU were but others were certainly implying…

Family life is by far the biggest factor that affects when we can exercise and ability to recover and there is a blissful ignorance for those yet to take the plunge or perhaps be fully involved.

This is the point I am making. We all do it, you rush out when you have a spare hour, rush home, no proper warm down, no time for stretching after, reheat dinner in the microwave becuase the wife and kids ate earlier.

And then marketing come along and offer the wonder solution in a glass

And then some of us discount the wonder marketing and look at what it is and what it can do, then we try it and make evidence based decisions…

But if its energy then carbs would replenish quicker? I’m a few years out of date but I don’t know of any way liquid carried proteins are going to be in the 20 minute from ingestion to use?

Dunno. When I read about it, they suggested that it did aid carb absorbtion but no-one knew how. As I said, just 3:1 carb:protein didn’t seem to help me a lot over pure carbs, but Torq reco does.

I don’t buy it any more cos it’s too expensive.

I guess this is quite individual

Yes, most things are when it comes to bodies.. like I say, we ride differently, we recover differently, and our bodies process food differently.