Twodogs, your links are answering a totally different question to that asked by the OP.

I mix together the following for after a hard training session:

500ml of almond milk
40g of beef protein (from MyProtein)
20g of dextrose
1 banana
1 scoop of Neals Yard Cocoa Complex.

Works very well for me, and tastes reasonable too.

Twodogs, your links are answering a totally different question to that asked by the OP

Not really….he asked what the best one was….and the answer is that they’re all equal (i.e. snakeoil)

So kindly clarify for me, if I get everything i need from real food, why is it that I consume ~50,000kcal of recovery drink every year and still weigh <60kg?

Also if you wouldn’t mind, let me know what alternatives I can make in ~30s that are absorbed as quickly as a specialist recovery drink.

I’d suggest doing some reading….but I think the point is, you don’t need any additional protein that you can prepare in 30s. Just eat your dinner….else, like vitamin supplements, you’re just literally, peeing money away.

I’ve encountered this argument before.

Last time I worked it out I didn’t eat enough protein (based on 0.8-1.0 grams per KG of body weight. Reference HERE) on a general day – and I considered myself to have a reasonable diet.

As an 83 kg chap I should eat between 66 and 83 grams of protein to build/maintain muscle and aid recovery. I don’t (didn’t).

I suspect very few of us actually do unless you deliberately set out to increase the protein content of your diet.

I deliberately set out to increase the protein content of my diet by using a Whey Protein product from MyProtein.com.

Therefore; NOT snake-oil but dietary supplement 8)

and the answer is that they’re all equal (i.e. snakeoil)

My experience suggests that it is not snake-oil, but that it can speed recovery. But it is only worth it if you are training to a programme and pushign yourself hard. There’s clearly no point for ad-hoc riding.

I have found SiS to be no better than simple carbs after a ride – e.g. a fizzy drink, but Torq is somewhat better still, as is maltodextrin (which is cheaper than even coke).

The carb intake immediately after riding seems to have the most scientific evidence, and seems to me to be the most significant bit.

The science is that they are snake oil. Its just a way of selling you overpriced rubbish. follow the science. Use evidence based actions.

As yet unconvinced by the snake oil theory.

I may try protein shakes daily, as I’m feeling pretty achey with gym, runing and all this hilly MTBing that the dry trails are making me do.

I found this on British Cycling site:

If you have fuelled and paced your ride correctly, you should finish the ride feeling hungry but not ravenous. Have a protein and carbohydrate recovery drink made up and ready to go in your fridge or kit-bag. This will kick-start your recovery and make sure that while you are sorting out your kit and bike and getting showered and changing, you have got some energy.
Read more at https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/knowledge/nutrition/article/izn20140305-Sportive-Nutritional-Timeline-0#EtOJtFLsQzvilcx7.99

Just eat your dinner….else, like vitamin supplements, you’re just literally, peeing money away.

And when dinner is a car ride home and then 45mins to cook?
It pretty well documented that the sooner you can refuel after exercise the better.
And you’ve also ignored the carbohydrate component of recovery drinks – given that my weight is stable, what you advocate would result in weight loss and under performance.

But anyway, my evidence suggests I recover better when i have a recovery drink, and better still when I have a protein based 10am snack the day after, so i’ll continue to do so.

Here’s an exercise scientist on the subject – Shawn Arent, Rutgers University

Here’s what he told us when we asked him what people should do for a recovery drink:

“Honestly, for most people, 20 grams of protein. They can mix it with carbs, or not. If they did a real hard workout I would recommend mixing it with carbohydrates. But basically, 20 grams of protein shortly after your workout and then eat a normal meal within the next couple hours.”

Snake oil if someone says they’re ‘needed’. Not snake oil if you see it as a convenient, quick way to get some of the protein you need during training or high intensity riding. Not needed if you have enough in your diet already – not all of us have or it may not be regular.

My experience is that eating the right stuff and the right quantities soon after a long or hard ride and over the following 12hrs means I rest better and feel better the next day. Protein powder might make up some of that in the same way eggs or fish or oats would.

I seem to remember TJ and I have had this argument before. It was the only time I managed to extract from him an acknowledgement that he might not be right.

But anyway, my evidence suggests

This isn’t science….

Btw I use high5 recovery drink if I’m training hard…but I believe the science and I know it’s just a comfort blanket.

MOlgrips – unlike you I have read some of the science on this and followed the references / links back to the original research

there is not a single shred of evidence that these “recovery” drinks do anything at all for guys who ride a mountainbike a few hours each week. Nothing. zero. ziloch

the original research was into malnourished elderly in hospitals IIRC,

What I suspect is happening in your case is that IIRC you take maltodextrin continuously during exercie which will stimulate you to produce insulin. Then you stop exercising and stop taking the sugar in the maltodextrin so you have an insulin crash – so taking on board more sugar makes you feel better.

Previous debates on this you were taking in kilos of refined sugar ( which is what maltodextrin is) a week

Link to research please molgrips?

This protein and carbs for recovery has become accepted consensus but its not based on any proper evidence. I followed the links on SIS site and they were completely irrelevant to folkj like you and I and the OP

MOlgrips – unlike you I have read some of the science on this and followed the references / links back to the original research

Pretty sure I also read it last time. Show the links again so we can discuss. The problem with scientific studies is that they choose a well defined set of subjects, who may not be doing the exact things I’m doing.

What I suspect is happening in your case is that IIRC you take maltodextrin continuously during exercie which will stimulate you to produce insulin. Then you stop exercising and stop taking the sugar in the maltodextrin so you have an insulin crash – so taking on board more sugar makes you feel better.

Nope. Not even close. I’m talking about how I feel the following morning.

Previous debates on this you were taking in kilos of refined sugar ( which is what maltodextrin is)

a) no, it’s not and b) I’ve tried loads of different nutrition strategies, and I’ve learned a lot.

they were completely irrelevant to folkj like you and I

You and I do NOT ride our bikes in the same way.

I posted some links from people who should know what they are talking about. I didn’t find any scientific articles, but then I’m meant to be working. Now it’s your turn. Post some credible links.

The trouble is, Molgrips, how you feel the following morning is influenced by the fact that you know whether you’ve had your recovery drink. You’d need to do at least a blind trail for it to be anything other than anecdotal.

Read recently that cyclists may be deluding themselves with regard to protein requirements on account of that fact that it is a non impact activity and trauma to muscles is actually pretty minimal.

The opposite would be true of runners for example.

The summary was, eat normal meals and maintain a healthy diet. Use some extra carbs after a ride to replace used energy etc but there was no real need for protein.

The trouble is, Molgrips, how you feel the following morning is influenced by the fact that you know whether you’ve had your recovery drink.

In theory, yes. But I don’t believe that what I experience (or experienced when I was buying the stuff) is that subjective. I could be wrong of course. But if it allows me to train more and harder, then it doesn’t matter if it’s a placebo or not, does it?

Also – how would my subconscious differentiate between the different recovery options? If I do something thinking it’s good, then the placebo effect should mean they are all successful. But some things have turned out to be good and some not. I’ve found that the cheapest options can be as good as the more expensive ones, but the most expensive one is best. If it were jsut down to perceived value, you’d expect them to be rated according to cost woudn’t you?

it is a non impact activity and trauma to muscles is actually pretty minimal.

MTBers or roadies? Welsh MTBers or Wiltshire MTBers?

Did two 3.5 hour rides at the weekend, my legs feel pretty traumatised this morning (and no I didn’t have recovery drink). Or is someone who’s never met me or seen how I ride going to tell me I’m imagining it?

Bugger me. You’re touchy huh?

I don’t believe that what I experience (or experienced when I was buying the stuff) is that subjective.

Er….um….I’m out

Experts everywhere!

. It was the only time I managed to extract from him an acknowledgement that he might not be right.

Sounds like a subjective interpretation of events. 🙂

Read recently that cyclists may be deluding themselves with regard to protein requirements on account of that fact that it is a non impact activity and trauma to muscles is actually pretty minimal.

I did 118mi on a MTB yesterday.
Maybe i’m just much weaker than the average cyclist, but my legs feel plenty traumatised thanks.

back to the important point here:

I like. Had a bottle yesterday after over indulging on Saturday night. IMV by far the best of the alcohol free beers – does have something of a wheatbeer taste.

Sir will be wanting to try some Mikkeller. I really like their “drink’in the sun” (one and a bit% IIRR) but they seem to make loads of stuff.

Sounds like a subjective interpretation of events.

Er….um….I’m out

You so clever, far too smart to be debating with us morons 🙂

Or you could, y’know, come up with some evidence instead of a passive aggressive flounce?

Bugger me. You’re touchy huh?

Yeah, TJ in these situations always gets me riled up, cos of the way he flat out dismisses any points I make instead of actually engaging and bringing things to the discussion….

Ok.. I need to calm down myself.. sorry folks. No more passive aggression.. no more direct aggression from me.. let’s see evidence of why it DOESN’T work, ok?

No more passive aggression.. no more direct aggression from me.. let’s see evidence of why it DOESN’T work, ok?

Caps off for non-aggression!

It’s hard to prove that something doesn’t work – you can only look for effects and measure them. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and all that. Also measuring this stuff in amateurs is notoriously hard compared with elite athletes.

But I think we are all suckers for subjective interpretation of cause and effect. I started sticking rehydration tabs in my bottle because I didn’t get cramps when I did. The probability that this probably coincided with me getting a bit fitter hasn’t stopped me buying them.

I think we can all agree that a bit of carbs and protein immediately post-ride is unlikely to do you any harm as part of a healthy balanced diet. There may be a marginal benefit for some amateur ‘athletes’, as Strava insists on calling us, no benefit for others, and a greater benefit for a few.

The differences in how you ‘felt’ after various different forms of carbs/protein could be due to all sorts of differences in your metabolism, the intensity of the activity, or seemingly unconnected stuff like your sleep pattern that particular day, even your diet in the days running-up to the activity.

But I personally don’t have a problem if people who can afford it spend money on supplements, even if they are feeling great just on the power of placebo.

Personally, I have a bottle of the banana milk not because it might fill a nutritional gap, but because I fancy it.

I think a lot depends on how you ride too. If you’re a slow twitch kind of guy, you’re skinny and light, and you ride rolling hills all day in zone 2, then it might not make a difference. If you a fast twitch guy, heavy, and riding steep technical hills that put you well into the red – that’ll have a different effect on your body and you’ll respond differently.

There’s no question in my mind that it helps stops me feeling ravenously hungry after a big ride. As does taking on some maltodextrin during the ride – if it’s a 3-4 hour job. Although fasted training has allowed me to reduce the amount of that I take.

There’s no question in my mind that it helps stops me feeling ravenously hungry after a big ride.

Agreed, especially with the Torq stuff. That can kill my hunger for 2-3 hours.

I think a lot depends on how you ride too.

I think there is some commonality between the molgrips view and the tj view. For most MTBers/cyclists, a recovery drink really isn’t needed. If you’re training 15 hours a week with structured sessions and hard intervals, it may have some benefit but that’s very difficult to measure.

I don’t eat much on rides any more – I can do 3 hours/50 miles road as a fasted ride – so sometimes I have a flavoured milk drink when I get in as it’s quick and convenient.

Other times I have hotdogs. Or malt loaf, toast, hot cross buns. A Solero on a hot day.

You may be doing it the wrong way round by using protein immediately and carbs as part of your food.

The carb requirement is immediate (ie within 20minutes there is an increased uptake rate) the protein longer term.

So it makes sense to use the recovery drink for carbs and the food for protein.

Can of coke and a lean meat sandwich for me.

Also if you keep on repeating that you are a crap climber it will become a self fulfilling prophecy.

SIS appear to have dropped the links to research on their site entirely now

back to the important point here:
Sir will be wanting to try some Mikkeller. I really like their “drink’in the sun” (one and a bit% IIRR) but they seem to make loads of stuff.

Got a cheap source? Seems expensive where my Google turns it up but the idea of a 0% APA is attractive.

I discovered Picon a year or so back – a great way of adding flavour to cooking lager anyone leaves at your house. Works well with alcohol free beers as well (if completely negating the abscence of alcohol). Picon is cheap in french supermarkets.

http://www.drydrinker.com is news to me. massive choice.

a fair point adsh. what i should have said is that i do an amount and type of work on my legs during a workout that leads to some quite hefty muscular pain about an hour afterward, and im wanting to build leg strenght.

yes, it is a convienience for me as i do most of my efforts ending at 9pm approx. ive no desire, nor do I want to wake up the kids cooking 5 chicken breasts at the time (yes yes i know other options are available).

So i sink the protien drink and have a light carb snack immediately after my workouts.

The SIS option looks ok, kind if a protien shake and multivit in one.

i could look at a more carb heavy recovery drink / meal replacement and drop the cheese and crackers.

SIS appear to have dropped the links to research on their site entirely now

Torq haven’t. They appear to list a fair few under all of their learning pages. I’ve not read any of the sources though 🙂

TORQ Recovery System

@nicolaisi

drydrinker is where I get mine from (just ordered the last of their current supply – more coming in a week or two apparently)

I don’t like many other non or low alcohol beers (Innis & Gunn one is OK) – lagers generally “better” as I find most beers taste too heavy somehow. Ordered some of the Berliner one to try too

cheers simon – I’#ll have a look at them later

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61l_4RkKZT4[/video]

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFj3CbWtshc[/video]

Eating to win: Training, Race, and Recovery Nutrition with Team Sky’s Dr. Morton and SIS Nutrition

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/recreational-cycling/how-to-eat-like-a-tour-de-france-cyclist/

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QfYvmWy0Ug[/video]

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWrvVvK5U4k[/video]

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5f1MJfBBCY[/video]

http://www.skysports.com/cycling/news/17546/10055620/team-sky-nutrition

So – I thought I would have a look at the science as linked to for torq recovery.
The papers quoted as supporting the torq recovery:

Prolonged endurance exercise stimulates whole-body protein turnover (synthesis and degradation) but it remains contentious whether this translates into an increased net protein oxidation or dietary requirement for protein.

Ingestion of protein with carbohydrate improves net protein balance during exercise and recovery compared with carbohydrate alone, but it remains to be determined whether this practice facilitates the adaptive response to chronic training.

Glycogen synthesis rate was not different between trials. We conclude that ingesting protein with CHO during recovery from aerobic exercise increased muscle FSR and improved WBNB, compared with feeding strategies that provided CHO only and were matched for total CHO or total energy intake. However, adding protein or additional CHO to a feeding strategy that provided 1.2 g CHO x kg(-1) x h(-1) did not further enhance glycogen resynthesis during recovery.

Hardl;y a ringing endorsment!

I have only looked at the abstracts but as when I looked into this before the science is really not showing the benefits they claim