Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 134 total)
  • Bath – Brown's Folly (aka Sally in the Woods) – Under attack from local Tories..
  • AnalogueAndy
    Free Member

    Helloo! First time on the Forum in ages.

    Sadly with not good news. Locals will know the legendary trails around what we variously call ‘Browns Folly’ or ‘Sally in the Woods’ or ‘The Pepperpot’ (all after the tower at the top of the woods).

    The woods were bought by Avon Wildlife Trust about 25 years ago. There’s tons of trails, around what used to be the mines that riddle the hillside, overlooking the spectacular River Avon valley and Bath below. There’s no ‘legal’ trail thought the woods (FP only) and things have been ‘simmering’ for years, with signs, fencing, more fencing, felled logs and patrolling ‘wardens’..

    The local Tory Councillor has now written this:

    http://www.bathmercury.com/mountain-bikers-endangering-hikers-browns-folly/

    As a result, Adam and myself are in the process of setting up a meeting with Avon Wildlife Trust (the landowner) and possibly the Council and Cllr Geoff Ward (possibly a wider ‘users’ meeting later).

    I’ll post details here.

    In the meantime please feel encouraged to add your comments to the article (and please remember – I’m sure no one will need reminding – that we know they are doing google searches and will seize upon any comments that suit them – please bear that in mind!)

    Cheers,

    Andy

    ninfan
    Free Member

    I think the comments on the newspaper thread sum up the situation and answers perfectly – really professional and very well argued points, well done 8)

    dannyh
    Free Member

    It’s happening everywhere I’m afraid.

    I’m amazed that in these times of ‘austerity’ so much money can be found to enforce stupid rules about access, or flatten vast tracts of the countryside so ramblers don’t have to have to worry about tweaking a toe nail or suchlike.

    The problem is that ‘they’ (the hunter wellied brigade) think that just because they have spent half a million on a house in the countryside, they have the ‘right’ to ban everyone they don’t like from sullying the view from their turrets.

    They will invent any pretext on which to base a total over reaction and blanket bans and enforcement.

    Very soon all we will be allowed to do is sit in front of the telly and eat ourselves to death. Ball games? No, you can’t play them there because Nigel’s landrover got hit once by a tennis ball. Mountain biking? No, one of you went within five metres of a rambler once. The fact that they deliberately stood in the middle of the trail to block as much as possible is irrelevant.

    They will win in the end, so you might as well ride it while you can.

    UrbanHiker
    Free Member

    Good luck with this. I’ve been following it a while, and all parties seem to be pretty much entrenched. You can tell by the tone of the Mercury article, its very much a them and us type situation.

    Its a shame something couldn’t be done officially, like the Bristol, but not sure AWT are at all interested.

    GW would do well to think about how many cyclist there are out there. Not just regarding Browns, but as a whole in Bath+. Perhaps we could drum up support for an opposition candidate that takes cycling (in all its forms) seriously.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    It’s up to local riders to come to an agreement with the landowners.

    If it’s owned by a wildlife group does it have protected status or is it a recognised nature deserve? I’d love to see better access rules but if there is no legal right of way it needs sensible discussions to reach an amicable arrangement with the landowners to get a permissive right of access.

    iffoverload
    Free Member

    There is probably just a very small minority of riders who ride with disregard for other users of the woods.

    This is no different in many ways than people who use the public roads as a recetrack or drive dangerously. Of course nobody suggests banning cars/bikes/lorries etc from the road as a solution as it is clearly not the way.

    I agree with the policing of the woods and the reporting of any type of antisocial behaviour, by anyone.

    A few dedicated tracks for bikes would be a good move and has been 100% proven successful in many other similar situations.

    As mentioned on the comments of the newspaper article they would probably be built and maintained by volunteers at no cost, liasing with the land owners and in sympathy with the surroundings and other users.

    I see no real problem here that cannot be easily dealt with. 🙂

    wrecker
    Free Member

    Wow. Malcom cupis is a real nob. Hope he doesn’t get elected.

    llama
    Full Member

    Could we build a trail there that would ride as good as what’s there now? That follows roughly the same route? I’m sure there would be plenty of volunteers but its a huge job.

    The folly is the first of a 3 section route along the valley. The last section is getting very popular as a DH destination. If we make a trail at the folly will those other sections get highlighted? The ‘you’ve got trails over there so don’t ride here’ argument?

    At the moment I think a voluntary ban is our best way forward, eg no riding 9am to 5pm, maybe none at all in nov-feb.

    UrbanHiker
    Free Member

    Wrecker, careful what you say. You may receive a visit from the plod if you start making enemies with MC. But, your right.

    dannyh
    Free Member

    Wow. Malcom cupis is a real nob. Hope he doesn’t get elected.

    Depends. If you have large number of like-minded nobs in the area he probably will be.

    He comes across as someone who will represent the land-owning NIMBY tendency quite vociferously.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    The paths are narrow and uneven with rocky surfaces and some very steep descents over sheer cliffs in places.

    Awesome someone should market them as this 😉

    It is simply not the place to mix mountain bikers who, by definition, are out for sport and are therefore not going to be content to meander at walking pace

    A group STW ride will dispel that myth

    Best of luck getting shared acces – it is what we got locally
    It sounds like it will be hard to arrange this amicably but, whatever we think of it, some cyclists are going to ride it no matter what

    DanW
    Free Member

    Thanks for the link Andy.

    I think the comments sections of the article are very considerate and display MTB in as positive light as possible. It is great that the MTB community around Bath appear open minded to keeping everyone happy and strive for positive solutions.

    Whenever I’ve been up there, there only ever seems to be people walking around the tower. It is extremely rare to see anyone, be it a walker or cyclist, South of where another footpath goes through the wall (heading East) in to Monkton Farleigh. It would be interesting to know where the public feel the “problem” areas are and I suspect that avoiding the paths around the tower itself perhaps by providing a cycle route to bypass the tower) may present a compromise and still keep some of the other fun sections accessible to MTBers.

    To be honest, I can’t see any attraction of riding in the woods at the top of the hill since the logging has churned up the ground and left rotting trees all over the place- it is quite a mess up there for everyone, walkers, riders and wildlife! I can only the sections heading south of the tower for a few 100m as an area really requiring a bit of looking in to for everyone.

    Sally in the Woods (as I understand the section across from the main road) is actually a bridleway so no worries there for the time being. That path shares a lot of characteristics with the footpaths around BF yet is a designated right of way for walkers, horses and cyclists.

    As correctly pointed out, most people seem to also walk in areas not designated as footpaths so should incur the same wrath (or worse!) of the landowner as a cyclist on a footpath IMO yet I have never come across this anywhere.

    Best of luck to all involved for finding a positive solution for everyone. Everyone should be able to enjoy the countryside in harmony 😀

    P.S. Who is leading the crackdown on MTB? Is it Malcolm Cupis? Seems like an interesting guy. One would hope that the apparent passions for motorbiking, sports cars and 4×4 green laning might offer potential for an open mind for others wishing to enjoy hobbies in the great outdoors.

    mcupis
    Free Member

    Knob?

    Oh well, I’ve been called worst. Today.

    Look, I know that Analogue Andy desperately wants to depict me as some hate-filled, bicycle bashing harbinger of evil, but the truth is completely different.

    For the benefit of those not from Bath, I grew up in the countryside around the city, I used to revel in mountain biking and hiking and generally being outdoors, and then I had a nasty accident that wasn’t my fault that left me permanently knackered and unable to do these things. I do not hate bicycles, I love bicycles. I do not resent you lot, I envy you.

    Let’s clear up a few things. First of all, my status. I am not a Councillor and I am not “leading a crackdown on MTB.” I am a Council candidate for a ward in the centre of Bath and yes, I am a Conservative and yes, I do know that Analogue Andy doesn’t like Conservatives and wants to try to turn everything into an opportunity to express his scorn for Conservatives. These things are irrelevant.

    I’m also a journalist and the Bath Mercury is the pilot of a range of online local newspapers.

    This story has nothing to do with politics. It has nothing to do with Conservatives or my candidacy, it is all about a news story in the Bath Mercury.

    So why is it in the Bath Mercury? Because I’ve been walking at Brown’s Folly for more than 40 years, since I was a tiny child. I’m generally up there at least twice a week. I know a lot of people who go up there regularly and we talk. I’ve seen an increase in mountain bikers through the summer and I’ve seen quite a few of them, myself, behaving stupidly and completely inconsiderately. An increasing number of people who I know and meet regularly who walk there have reported the same thing.

    What’s the problem with Brown’s Folly?

    You can break it down into two things, riding off the paths and riding on the paths.

    Off the paths it is a SSSI. You can read why here http://www.sssi.naturalengland.org.uk/special/sssi/sssi_details.cfm?sssi_id=1002510

    When you ride off the paths you cause damage to protected species and Nature England, which is responsible for policing every SSSI, knows that people are riding off the paths up there and sent me an email a few weeks ago saying that they were planning a crackdown. The fine for damaging protected species in a SSSI is up to £20,000. So you could be riding off the path up there and suddenly find yourself stopped by a Nature England Inspector, arrested and fined heavily.

    If you know it is an SSSI and choose to ignore this then you deserve the consequences. If you don’t know then you deserve to be told before you get nailed, because Nature England won’t consider ignorance to be much of an excuse.

    The other problem relates to riding on the paths. The reason mountain bikers like it so much is that it is challenging and I understand this. The reason it is challenging is that the paths are narrow, rocky and have unguarded descents of over 100ft in places.

    I walk with a stick, slowly. I can’t run away or jump out of the way. I’ve been up there this summer with my dogs and my wife on several occasions and found a group MTB riders belting around a blind corner on a narrow path which you can’t step off with a dry stone wall on one side and an almost sheer drop on the other. It’s bloody dangerous. I’ve got YouTube video links to riders doing exactly this.

    Let’s be honest, you do this for sport and I understand that. I can easily understand the thrill. As someone pointed out I’m big into fast cars and motorcycles. I fly small aeroplanes, I’ve done parachuting and bunjee jumping. I’m not some boring old git who wants to spoil fun or limit freedom. Bending regulations for great experiences is something I completely understand, so long as it doesn’t imperil other people. MTB riders don’t want to bimble around on paths like these in case they meet some dullard coming round the corner with his wife and dogs, they want to ride quickly, experience the thrill, challenge themselves.

    This is the problem. It would be a great place to do these things if it wasn’t for the fact that it isn’t a place in the middle of nowhere that is empty of other people, it is easily accessible and used a lot. And the needs of people who use it put them in direct conflict with each other.

    I have spoken to plenty of walkers up there who report that they have had dogs run over, near misses, been forced off the paths above steep falls, startled, sworn at and generally treated with a total lack of respect. And there is a big sign at the entrance that clearly states that bikes should not be ridden there, as well as repeater signs at points along the trail, many of which have been ripped off.

    If MTB riders could ride carefully and consideratly in small numbers then I don’t think there would be much of a problem, but YouTube works as well for you as it does for me. Have a look at the videos on YouTube and you will see the problem for yourself.

    So, what do I think should be done? Firstly, the off-path issue. MTB riders should not ride off the paths and cause damage to protected species. I would hope that every person who reads this would agree. No excuses, it is wrong.If Nature England does what it has told me it will do and sends Inspectors there who nick people, I think they only have themselves to blame.

    Secondly, on-path. A couple of riders have told me that they only ride there as a link between other places, rather than seeing it as a destination in its own right. I have to say I struggle to believe this from the way in which many riders ride there. That and the fact that riders have set up a club which meets there every Wednesday evening and calls itself “Folly Flyers”.

    If it is a link between other places I would urge riders to be ultra cautious on the paths and think about who you might come across. Ride alone or in small groups and always be ready to stop.

    I don’t believe that very many riders will feel that this is advice that they want to pay any heed to.

    I think the hills around Bath lend themselves to MTB riding and I think Bath needs a dedicated facility that is purpose designed and built, that could incorporate a challenging trail for experienced riders and a more family-friendly trail alongside. I don’t see why this can’t be achievable.

    I have to say though that for all the reasons I have explained here I think Brown’s Folly is completely the wrong place for MTB riders to continue to behave as they have been. Somebody is going to get nailed by Nature England. Somebody is going to get badly hurt riding on the paths. I won’t get any satisfaction at all from saying “I told you so”.

    D0NK
    Full Member

    Look, I know that Analogue Andy desperately wants to depict me as some hate-filled, bicycle bashing harbinger of evil, but the truth is completely different.

    haven’t noticed anaologue andy depicting you in anyway, it would seem as tho wrecker read your comments on the mercury page and formed his own opinion of you.

    wrecker
    Free Member

    This goes two ways. Considering the damage that unrestrained dogs do to flora and fauna (and the fact that they do not stick to the paths), you should also insist that ALL dogs are kept on a lead in this area. Not to do so would make you a massive hypocrite.

    it would seem as tho wrecker read your comments on the mercury page and formed his own opinion of you.

    I did indeed, as that is exactly how he came across. As a writer, you really should learn to be more likeable in written form. You do so here, although I doubt that your post would get as much nodding approval from the foaming mouthed hunter wellie brigade.

    ninfan
    Free Member

    So you could be riding off the path up there and suddenly find yourself stopped by a Nature England Inspector, arrested and fined heavily.

    Why would you even perpetuate this lie?

    Since when have Natural England had a team of ‘inspectors’ with a power of arrest?

    To even suggest it is so is underpants of the finest order

    In addition to this, the current SSSI report for the site, only a few weeks old, lists nearly all of the site in favourable condition, does not express any concerns over current access arrangements and does not even mention mountain biking or off road cycling, let alone classify it as a problem needing action to protect the integrity of the SSSI units

    If you have concerns over trail user conflict, then fine, lets discuss them and find a solution, but to dress them up in the camouflage of concern for nature on a protected site is not only disingenuous but downright underhanded.

    I would be more than happy to discuss with you ways of managing the problems caused by mountainbikers, the finer balances of SSSI designation, mitigation measures and ways of minimising conflict between different user groups – however running around spouting utter lies is not the way to start off the conversation.

    👿

    daftvader
    Free Member

    wow the Vanderman has reared his idiotic head again!!!

    mcupis
    Free Member

    Anybody who causes damage to protected flora and fauna in a SSSI is liable to the same penalty, regardless of whether they are a cyclist or a walker.

    ninfan
    Free Member

    Anybody who causes damage to protected flora and fauna in a SSSI is liable to the same penalty, regardless of whether they are a cyclist or a walker.

    So, you’ve chosen not to clarify or explain your outright lie that people could be arrested by Natural England ‘inspectors’

    Nor have you chosen to explain why, despite your claims, the NE SSSI site review does not mention any concerns whatsoever over current levels of access or use by anyone, let alone by bicycles – although just a few minutes ago you were claiming that they were so concerned over it that they are planning to arrest people with powers they don’t even have.

    Underpants!

    wrecker
    Free Member

    Anybody who causes damage to protected flora and fauna in a SSSI is liable to the same penalty, regardless of whether they are a cyclist or a walker.

    So you keep your dogs are kept on a lead in this SSSI then? If not, as a responsible person who is going to extreme lengths to point out potential damage done by others, you had better start.

    scaredypants
    Full Member

    So you keep your dogs are kept on a lead in this SSSI then? If not, as a responsible person who is going to extreme lengths to point out potential damage done by others, you had better start.

    A responsible citizen would surely turn himself over to, and bear the full force of, Natural England and its inspectorate

    ninfan
    Free Member

    Whats happened here is that Mr Cupis has made the fatal mistake of trying to use the sites SSSI designation as a catch all excuse to support his own primary argument of ‘think of the poor little doggies and old people who might get run over’

    Unfortunately in the process he’s leaped into a bear pit of people who know more about the subjects of both i) conservation and ii) managing recreational access and minimisation of trail user conflict than he does, and is now suffering the inevitable result as the validity and veracity of his argument falls apart, I have no doubt that the inevitable result of this will be more wild and unsubstantiated claims followed shortly thereafter by him taking offence and flouncing off claiming we’re abusing him.

    Malcolm, for what its worth my offer of trying to offer you advice on methods of minimising conflict stands, this is an area of some expertise for some of us round here, who have worked extensively with organisations like the Forestry Commission, National Trust, and yes, Natural England to solve exactly these type of problems in a cooperative and respectful manner that leads to positive outcomes, since inclusion sees a much more effective solution with better compliance.

    Somehow I doubt you’ll take me up on the offer though…

    T1000
    Free Member

    So why is it in the Bath Mercury?

    [Because I’ve been walking at Brown’s Folly for more than 40 years, since I was a tiny child. I’m generally up there at least twice a week. I know a lot of people who go up there regularly and we talk. I’ve seen an increase in mountain bikers through the summer and I’ve seen quite a few of them, myself, behaving stupidly and completely inconsiderately. An increasing number of people who I know and meet regularly who walk there have reported the same thing]

    Nothing to do with being a Director of the holding Company behind the Bath Mercury then……

    tinybits
    Free Member

    I’ve ridden there, normally alone but sometimes in small groups. Before I moved (and wrecked my back!) I was there 3 times a week as part of my loop, normally ending by dropping down to the viaduct, then up the back of the university hill and down through the (illegal) university trails.
    The only piece of ‘conflict’ I’ve ever had is when I stopped to let a couple of walkers come past and their stupid colly came up and bit me (check my posting history, it’s there) Other than that, all walkers, young and old have been courteous as I have to them. Yes, I can travel a lot faster than them, however normally they move aside when I approach from behind, and I stop when we are head on. People, especially right next to a city, tend to know how to get on with each other.
    As for the sign vandalising, go up there later at night and you may well find your culprits. I’d be looking for the large groups of yoofs smoking weed and breaking things, not the middle aged, slightly tubby mountain biker getting his kicks after putting the kids to bed….!
    I agree with all of AnalogueAndy’s comments, and I’m pretty sure that the post above is from the Vanderwhatispillock, not the actual author of the Bath Chronical artcle.

    mcupis
    Free Member

    Flounce off?

    Look, I don’t need to be here. I’ve registered and contributed because I think I’m making reasonable points in a discussion about a place I care very much about and a situation I’m very concerned about, which a lot of other people have expressed concern about.

    Natural England has been in touch with me and have given me the information I’ve described above. If it is wrong then I’m surprised to put it mildly.

    I’m choosing to engage with you because I would like a reasonable solution to a worrying situation. Not a keyboard war that creates a lot of heat and no light. I’m happy to meet anybody who is concerned. I’m happy to talk about solutions. I’m not here to embark on a war in your living room.

    llama
    Full Member

    After reading the long post from mcupis I’ve got to say that I do not recognize the picture he paints of the current situation at the Folly. Everyone I know rides responsibly, slows down or stops for walkers, and stays on the paths. We are predominately talking about a bunch of middle aged, middle class, well behaved men here. I would say that I have never seen any irresponsible riding at the Folly.

    HOWEVER I do agree with him to some extent on what he thinks should be done. Firstly:

    Firstly, the off-path issue. MTB riders should not ride off the paths……etc etc stay on the paths

    Fully agree with that.

    I’m not sure he is correct on this one though:

    Secondly, on-path. A couple of riders have told me that they only ride there as a link between other places, rather than seeing it as a destination in its own right……

    I would say in my experience that this is not quite correct. The main path can lend itself to part of a longer loop this is true. However it would be one of the highlights of any ride, not a mere linking section.

    It is the quality of the riding there that is the heart of the problem. People have been riding the Folly main path for over 20 years because it is very good to ride. It is a true classic section: if you set out to design a MTB course you would struggle to make one as good as has evolved at the Folly. There is nothing else quite like it.

    It is this that leads me to the opinion that attempts to enforce a no cycling policy are futile. Nothing that has been done towards this so far has made the least bit of difference. The fact that cycling at the Folly is or isn’t against the law is not relevant. All the fences, ‘blocked’ paths, patrolling, and signs over the years have done nothing to deter mountain bikers and only a fool would think that more of the same approach will change anything.

    In my opinion the only option that AWT has is to approach the local groups and come to a policy of agreed use. That could be a time or seasonal based voluntary ban, or it could be sticking to certain less populated routes only. Whatever it is, a discussion needs to happen.

    Sandwich
    Full Member

    pwnage of the highest order. Have and “ATTABOY” ninfan.

    timidwheeler
    Free Member

    suddenly find yourself stopped by a Nature England Inspector, arrested and fined heavily.

    😆

    As if.

    mcupis
    Free Member

    Right. Here are some videos.

    Llama, your post is very reasonable, but I’m interested to see how your comments about usage square with what we see here, which is far more typical of what I have seen increasingly this summer and which other walkers have been describing to me.

    mrbelowski
    Free Member

    Is this another case of the “if you’d only play nicer and do what The Man says, you can have the moon on a stick at some point in the future”? Because if it is, we’ve already done it lots of times and it’s getting a bit tiresome.

    All the additional threats and noise make it impossible to hear the real point, so I just assume that today’s nimby is just saying “enjoy your riding folks and don’t forget to be nice”. Has worked so far.

    mcupis
    Free Member

    T1000, as I described above, I own the Bath Mercury. It is the pilot of a series of online local newspapers in South West England. I own Techspeak Ltd which publishes the Bath Mercury. No mystery. I’m not sure what point you seek to make.

    llama
    Full Member

    and another thing

    I’ve got YouTube video links to riders doing exactly this.

    Post the links here then lets see them.

    IF there are irresponsible MTBers let’s oust them and condemn them with all the other irresponsible users of the Folly (litterers, drug takers, drinking teenagers, vandals, uncontrolled dogs etc etc etc)

    (xpost will look at the videos)

    mrbelowski
    Free Member

    Yeah, I find the music on those YouTube videos offensive too. What was your point again?

    epicyclo
    Full Member

    It’s amazing how mtb riders can go anywhere in Scotland and the sky does not fall in, but deviate a millimeter in England, and it’s doom according to the NIMBYs.

    May I suggest you give the local authorities a dose of democratic action?

    mcupis
    Free Member

    mrbelowski, I would like riders not to ride off the paths and damage protected species. I know this may sound a bit boring but I genuinely care.

    I don’t mind sharing the paths with mountain bikers.

    Hang on I’m going to say that again, with emphasis.

    I DON’T MIND SHARING THE PATHS WITH MOUNTAIN BIKERS.

    So long as those mountain bikers are behaving responsibly, considerately and safely.

    I’ve come across mountain bikers who do and I don’t have a problem with them.

    I’ve come across mountain bikers who don’t and I do have a problem with them.

    I’ve come across increasing numbers of mountain bikers who don’t through the summer and have been told by lots of other walkers that they have too.

    If people were careful, considerate and responsible there would be no problem.

    If you are a careful, considerate and responsible person then I would hope that you might agree with this. Careful, considerate and responsible mountain bike riders deserve more freedom. Their freedom is threatened by the actions of inconsiderate, selfish idiots.

    I want to deal with inconsiderate, selfish idiots, not careful, considerate and responsible mountain bikers.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    dannyh – Member

    I’m amazed that in these times of ‘austerity’ so much money can be found to enforce stupid rules about access, or flatten vast tracts of the countryside so ramblers don’t have to have to worry about tweaking a toe nail or suchlike.

    Ah, you’ve made a basic error there, austerity’s not about saving money, it’s about rich people taking things away from everyone else. This particular bit of trail austerity fits right in

    offthebrakes
    Free Member

    I want to deal with inconsiderate, selfish idiots, not careful, considerate and responsible mountain bikers.

    So why the call to ban all of them then? By the same logic, do we ban all walkers from the woods just because some of them are there to vandalise and take drugs?

    llama
    Full Member

    first one:

    [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pvXVWNaN_w[/video]

    3 people riding the main path in 2011. A small group I think you would agree. The one filming even has a bell on his bike.

    at 1:18 they go past 2 people on foot quite slowly. I can’t see any conflict here. The people moved out the way. They didn’t look scared to me. One of them looked like they were smiling.

    at 3:09 they go past 3 walkers again quite slowly as they carry over a fallen tree. The walkers didn’t look the least bit put out to me. I stepped through it and the one at the front looked like they were smiling.

    All I draw from this is that it is a multi-use path and people usualyl are pleasant and smile at each other.

    I’ll look at some later but the day job calls

    mrbelowski
    Free Member

    What dull videos. They’re also very old and during my skim through I honestly can’t see what issue they demonstrate.

    While out on my road bike I’ve been run off the road, spat on, had things thrown at me and been abused. If I posted on PistonHeads suggesting that drivers shouldn’t be allowed on roads I wouldn’t expect much in the way of apology or constructive response.

    Not sure what you’re expecting to achieve in this thread, other than giving fuel to your own burning resentment of people who aren’t the same as you

    xora
    Full Member

    WTF, two of those youtube links the riders are going so slow they don’t have the momentum to carry them over simple roots.

    I see no high speed in any of the videos, am I missing something?

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