Viewing 40 posts - 41 through 80 (of 152 total)
  • Banker bashing Monday!
  • oldmanmtb
    Free Member

    Binners speaks the truth – how many people on this site use accountants to reduce their tax bill via dividends, directors loans, pension funds etc (me included) and I have asked this question before on this forum and no one responded?

    If we all and I mean all individuals, organisations who turn a profit in these islands paid the relevant tax we would not have a financial worry again – but there is a problem that unaccou tad profit fuels,pays and supports all political parties and ensures that political class keeps it poses – Christ I sound like a Marxist

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    Impressive list of folk potentially caught with their cocks in the custard here. Secrecy, what secrecy….

    jivehoneyjive
    Free Member

    You can explore the leaks here

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middling Edition

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middlin...
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    jambalaya
    Free Member

    Binners I am not saying we shouldn’t pursue people whether they be bankers or the clients Inwas just explaining the current status as I saw it.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    oldmanmtb – Member
    Binners speaks the truth – how many people on this site use accountants to reduce their tax bill via dividends, directors loans, pension funds etc (me included) and I have asked this question before on this forum and no one responded?

    I dont but im paye so not really i problem, i also dont begrudge paying tax

    Ive also not used C2W to buy a new mtb as I though it was wrong
    funnily enough I bought a new commuter this week and wouldve done it thru C2W but we cant use CRC and that was cheaper than using our supplier even with C2W!

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    jambalaya – Member

    Binners I am not saying we shouldn’t pursue people……

    That’s pretty much what you’ve been implying throughout this thread.

    If you are now claiming that you think HMRC should go after these people and prosecute them, then I don’t know why you didn’t say that 12 hours ago when you first commented.

    I think what we’ve got here is a case of you unable to defend the indefensible, after initially trying to, and now giving up.

    noteeth
    Free Member

    Stephen Green – ordained CoE priest.

    The combination of religion and high finance makes my skin crawl.

    dazh
    Full Member

    When this info was handed over, back in 2010 so it’s not even a current news event really

    Presumably the likes of Stuart Hall, Rolf Harris et al should be freed as it was all a long time ago and attitudes have changed etc, and it’s not fair that they should be punished for things they did years ago when no one was as bothered about it? 🙄

    h1jjy
    Free Member

    Shocker a rich person/business/investment bank exploiting loop holes or dodgy tax.

    TBF at some point we all been guilty of some sort of dodge dealings (even if its only a few quid)

    MSP
    Full Member

    The German authorities have been much more proactive in using this data to recover taxes and prosecute offenders. They even played mind games giving the dodgers a chance to put their tax affairs in order before revealing who they actually had information on. The director of Bayern Munich (and friend of Merkel) was sent to prison.

    The UK has really been dragging their feet on this, and the obvious conclusion is that they were hoping it would go away and tax evasion could go on, unchallenged, as usual.

    jivehoneyjive
    Free Member

    UK’s lax approach may also be due to the fact that a good chunk of the world’s Tax Havens are under the jurisdiction of the Queen, as British Overseas Territories, Crown Dependencies and Commonwealth Realms

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    Shocker a rich person/business/investment bank exploiting loop holes or dodgy tax.

    If you think there is nothing shocking or newsworthy about a Britain’s biggest high street bank engaging in criminal activity, which presumably is the purpose of your sarcasm, then it is precisely that sort of attitude which helps to explain why the UK government feels there is little need to punish those responsible.

    Are there other categories of criminals who you think don’t deserve to be punished ?

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    MSP tax evasion in Germany is far worse than in the UK. In Germany they think its perfectly legitimate to negotiate a major exemption even though that is against the law (numerous examples inc Steffi Graf the tennis player). The number of Germans with bank accounts in Luxembourg, Lichtenstein or Switzerland far exceeds the Brits. Not least as they drive over the border with a car load of cash.

    The UK has collected £135m in taxes as a result of the HSBC revelations and tax / info sharing treating with Switzerland. Perhaps there should have been some prosecutions, we don’t know the specifics.

    @ernie the tough part with the “criminal activity” charge is if the client signs a statement saying the money is legit the bank is on fairly safe ground and rightly so I would say. The client has done something potentially illegal if subsequently they are dodging tax but its not against the law for a bank to open an account or allow a client to take out cash. The way tax is calculated you make a declaration at the end of the year of your income, if you don’t declare it then the offense takes place at that point. How is a Swiss bank (we are speaking of HSBC Switzerland) supposed to know money it received in (say) April 2012 should have been on a tax return filed in Jan 2014. If the money is declared then the tax may be paid from other funds. In the event of interest a Swiss bank pays that out less Swiss tax, perhaps it should be on a UK tax return but that’s not the Swiss bank’s business.

    MSP
    Full Member

    MSP tax evasion in Germany is far worse than in the UK

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Oh you were serious 😕

    Sandwich
    Full Member

    tax evasion in Germany is far worse than in the UK

    Alpin or one of our other German resident expats can confirm or refute this but I believe the Finanzamt are not to be messed with they are much worse than our Customs or VAT (I do not include the Revenue side in this comparison as they are pleasant people some of the VAT/Customs types I have seen locally are scary individuals).

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    @ernie the tough part with the “criminal activity” charge is if the client signs a statement saying the money is legit the bank is on fairly safe ground and rightly so I would say. The client has done something potentially illegal if subsequently they are dodging tax but its not against the law for a bank to open an account or allow a client to take out cash. The way tax is calculated you make a declaration at the end of the year of your income, if you don’t declare it then the offense takes place at that point. How is a Swiss bank (we are speaking of HSBC Switzerland) supposed to know money it received in (say) April 2012 should have been on a tax return filed in Jan 2014. If the money is declared then the tax may be paid from other funds. In the event of interest a Swiss bank pays that out less Swiss tax, perhaps it should be on a UK tax return but that’s not the Swiss bank’s business.

    The US, France, and Belgium, are carrying out criminal investigations into the HSBC, but not the UK, at least not up to the point of the Panorama programme.

    jambalaya your various posts throughout this thread have gone from attempting to trivialize a scandal which involves Britain’s largest high street bank engaging in illegal activities on behalf of extremely wealthy clients, dismissing it as a non-story, to now claiming despite all the evidence that the bank operated legally and aboveboard.

    Your trivialization on this thread of this tax evasion scandal and the excuses you provide for not punishing those responsible is in complete contrast to your views on tax evasion on another recent thread.

    On the thread concerning the newly elected Greek government you castigated Syriza completely falsely claiming that they aren’t committed to stamping out tax evasion.

    So the Greek government, which happens to be left-wing, gets fiercely criticized by you for allegedly not being tough enough on tax evasion, while the UK government, which happens to be Tory, gets passionately defended by you when accusations of being soft on tax evasion are leveled at them.

    Your ability to vary your moral position from thread to thread to suit your own personal political agenda is quite frankly stunning. Most people would feel at least a tad embarrassed, I’m sure, but I suspect that you are totally unaware of it 🙂

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    1 prosecution, 13 further cases with the serious fraud office. £135m in taxes and fines collected.

    Also a lot of British names on that list who don’t owe a penny, for example Phil Collins and David Bowie who both actually live in Switzerland.

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    French government is “considering” action and a Belgian judge is deciding whethr to issue arrest warrants for HSBC Switzerlands directors. So not much actual action then, UK doesnt look so different in its responce ?

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    For some action means actual heads on spikes at the tower.

    If proved people should be prosecuted to the extent of the law not the mob.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    Your ability to vary your moral position from thread to thread to suit your own personal political agenda is quite frankly stunning

    I think he just has views at the polar opposite to the actual facts relating to the issue being discussed

    French government is “considering” action and a Belgian judge is deciding whethr to issue arrest warrants for HSBC Switzerlands directors. So not much actual action then, UK doesnt look so different in its responce ?

    Apart from the fact they are considering stuff we did not consider and may do stuff we did not do and not appointing the chief exec to a Govt position …but yes apart from that its not much different 😕

    or as the Guardian explained it

    While France, Belgium, Spain, the US and Argentina have launched legal proceedings against HSBC and its high net worth clients, the UK’s tax authority has in five years used the data to bring only one prosecution.

    Meanwhile, neither HM Revenue and Customs, the Serious Fraud Office nor the Financial Conduct Authority have taken action against HSBC
    Yes just the **** same

    How do you do this ?
    How do you fail to get things like this ?

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    French government is “considering” action …

    No, the French authorities, unless everyone is lying including the FT, have launched a criminal investigation of the bank. The UK authorities have not yet done so. Remember jambalaya, this is a very old story, as you keep reminding us.

    And here’s no need for heads on spikes at the tower, is that how benefit cheats are dealt with ?

    Use the law to deal with tax cheats, even if they do happen to be extremely wealthy.

    And not least because the Treasury loses 15 times more from tax cheats as it does from benefit cheats.

    jet26
    Free Member

    To present another side – launching an investigation is just that. They may have no intent of doing anything but have launched it to be seen to be doing something to manage public expectation.

    That may also be bobbins but until anything/anyone is prosecuted launching an investigation is just that.

    As has been said before and less relevant here – if govts want to stop tax avoidance change the law to make it impossible. They could do it if they chose yet they don’t.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    So the French government, for example, has launched a criminal investigation into the activities of the HSBC “to manage public expectation”. But having discovered evidence of criminal activity they won’t necessarily do anything about it because they presumably don’t care about public expectation ?

    Yes that sounds quite likely.

    And I’m assuming the UK government cares even less about what the public thinks which is why they can’t even be bothered to launch a criminal investigation ?

    BTW they don’t need to change the law to make criminal activity illegal, it already is. As is tax evasion.

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    To present another side – launching an investigation is just that. They may have no intent of doing anything but have launched it to be seen to be doing something to manage public expectation.

    The idea of investigating is you get to the truth and what happened before drawing conclusions and administering punishment unlike

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    MSP, tax evasion is far worse in Germany due to high tax rates and easy access by road to Luxembourg, Lichtenstein and Switzerland. Suitcases full of cash in the boot of the car

    Let’s see where these investigations in France and Belgium lead to then. They have had the data since 2009/10 (will double check date) so one would imagine if there was going to be a corporate prosecution there would have been one by now. If someone opens an account in Switzerland and doesn’t declare the income/interest to their domestic tax authority there is no offence committed by the bank.

    I appreciate there are those here who disagree but HMRC took the view in many cases it was better to collect tax and penalties than pursue prosecutions which may not be successful. One fundamental difference between someone suspected of tax evasion and a benefit cheat is the tax evader often pays the past tax due and a penalty whereas the benefit cheat declines to do so or is unable.

    Finally and FWIW I would imagine anyone looking to do a serious amount of tax evasion would not put their money into a major bank like HSBC, much more likely to be a small bank and probably not in Switzerland.

    dazh
    Full Member

    One fundamental difference between someone suspected of tax evasion and a benefit cheat is the tax evader often pays the past tax due and a penalty whereas the benefit cheat declines to do so or is unable.

    Guess that’s ok then. Is it tory policy to be able to buy your way out of the justice system and escape prosecution? Next time I get a speeding/parking ticket I’ll try this approach by offering a few quid to the cop/trafic warden involved.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    One fundamental difference between someone suspected of tax evasion and a benefit cheat is the tax evader often pays the past tax due and a penalty whereas the benefit cheat declines to do so or is unable.

    😆

    So a tax cheat is often someone who has plenty of money and who doesn’t actually need the money they have cheated, and can therefore pay it back. On the other hand a benefit cheat is often a poor person who can’t pay the money back.

    Well that explains why poor cheats are sent to prison while rich cheats go unpunished.

    ernie_lynch – Member

    Your ability to vary your moral position from thread to thread to suit your own personal political agenda is quite frankly stunning.

    Posted 17 hours ago #

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    dazh don’t selectively quote, the point is securing a tax evasion conviction is very hard, the end game is collecting tax. If you go to court with a 10% chance of winning then there is only a 10% chance of getting anything back. Take the deal and move on due to the overly complex tax system.

    Also see the number of “I don’t want to pay the parking fine even though I parked outside the rules” threads on here

    mefty
    Free Member

    Is it tory policy to be able to buy your way out of the justice system and escape prosecution?

    No its HMRC policy and has been for years under governments of all colours.

    See here

    dazh don’t selectively quote, the point is securing a tax evasion conviction is very hard, the end game is collecting tax. If you go to court with a 10% chance of winning then there is only a 10% chance of getting anything back. Take the deal and move on due to the overly complex tax system.

    Tax evasion cases aren’t normally that complex, they are not like city fraud cases. Although, being a cheeky chappy does seem to enable one to get off.

    DrJ
    Full Member

    the end game is collecting tax

    So maybe we should not bother to prosecute murderers – after all, the end game is bringing people back to life, and punishment has no impact on that.

    chrismac
    Full Member

    The problem is that we have a corrupt system of government where party donations enable individuals and companies to have HMRC instructed not to investigate.

    Until there is transparency in party funding and loans then the corruption will continue, it is in the interests of both the government and the donors

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    There is transparency in party funding.

    mefty
    Free Member

    To reinforce my point that tax evasion cases are relatively simple, the conviction rate is 86% and the number of cases being pursued was budgeted to go up from 165 in 2010/11 to over 1100 in 2014/15. See here for two year old figures

    binners
    Full Member

    A timely piece by Owen Jones in todays Guardian

    The Tories are Putting Democracy up for Auction

    That awful embarrassment of the financial sector plunging the country into economic disaster could have led to all sorts of unseemly demands for tax hikes on the über-rich. A wise investment, then, to back a party that continually reminds us that the nation’s ills are down to benefit claimants, immigrants and public sector workers.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    Oh here we go again – blaming the Tories. No one is forced to vote Tory. And if no one did they wouldn’t be able to form a government.

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    @dazh and @ernie, I am just explaining the thinking that I believe lies behind the approach and the complexities of trying to pursue a prosecution for events which took place in another country and which in themselves where not illegal.

    I am all for tax reform and would start by abolishing non-dom status, I would them add compulsory tax audits on individuals like they have in the US, once every 5 years I understand.

    In terms of increasing amounts lost to HMRC I imagine something like the following

    1) Benefit Fraud
    2) Tax evasion by wealthy individuals
    3) Tax evasion by tradesmen working cash in hand
    4) Tax avoidance by companies abusing EU tax laws with he assistance of friendly countries (eg Ireland, Luxembourg)

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    Why do you keep banging on that tax fraud is too “complex” for successful prosecution jambalaya, apart from the obvious reason that you are struggling to think of excuses to justify a soft touch towards tax dodgers ?

    France is in the process of prosecuting the HSBC for money laundering, how do you explain that, is it because french juries have greater intellectual abilities than UK juries ?

    And why do you offer Ireland and Luxembourg as examples of countries friendly to tax dodgers when the UK is an obvious candidate ?

    The UK is a paradise for corporate cheats :

    The UK has one of the most laissez-faire business regimes in the world. Anyone over the age of 16 whether resident in the UK or abroad, with some minor exceptions, can become a company director. Companies can be bought off the shelf for just a few pounds and the identity of their owners can be concealed behind a labyrinth of nominee shareholders and other devices. Nominee directors often act as post-boxes and take their instructions from the real owners, but their identity is concealed. [/b]

    Is the UK Ending Corporate Secrecy? More Spin Than Substance

    Only last week the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee condemned the accountancy firm PricewaterhouseCoopers for promoting tax avoidance by multinational firms “on an industrial scale”

    PricewaterhouseCoopers condemned for giving misleading evidence to Parliament and ‘promoting tax avoidance on an industrial scale’

    Someone who has hugely benefited from the UK’s status as a tax avoider’s paradise is of course Tony Blair. He has channeled millions of pounds through a complicated web of companies so that no one has a clue how much profit the self-serving multimillionaire has made.

    And you will note from the link chrismac that we know exactly how much PricewaterhouseCoopers has provided researchers to the offices of Ed Balls, the shadow Chancellor, £64,162, and Chuka Umunna, the shadow Business Secretary £99,550, that’s how transparent political funding is.

    Will this revelation cost Labour votes ? Well a few but not enough to make a difference – millions will still vote Labour, for old times sake if nothing else.

    PricewaterhouseCoopers do of course also give large amounts of money to the Conservative Party, they’re not stupid, which helps to explain the UK’s friendly attitude towards corporate cheats, crooks and spivs.

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    Evidence from head of HMRC to Commons Committee

    What is written in the newspapers would not pass the test as being evidence
    The Fernch and Belgians are considering action
    The only countries who have prosecuted anyone is UK and Ireland

    BBC link

    Tony Blair spends most of his time working abroad so like say, Lewis Hamilton, he manages his affairs accordingly. There is just as much tax advice available in other countries around the world, its a legitimate businesses service to offer. Our tax code is far too complex and is inter-twinned with the EU to further complicate matters, so we should not be surprised its a gold mine for advisors.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    Have you actually listened to that committee live?
    It was nothing but a public kicking from all members of the committee and both sides of the house.

    The only person left on the planet who finds their views as credible and worthy of respect is you.

    Homer insisted that HMRC staff had been “diligent” in their approach to the files, and said their record of securing one conviction and £135 million in unpaid tax, fines and interest compared well with other countries.

    But Hodge countered that the French tax authorities had recouped £200 million from 3,000 names and the Spanish £180 million from 2,900.

    She told the HMRC chief: “It’s pretty outrageous what was going on. It’s the first time in many of these leaks that there are really strong allegations not of egregious tax avoidance, but of tax evasion, and that is incredibly serious.

    “For you to sit there and say, as you are doing, that ‘We couldn’t get the money in in the same way as the French and Spanish did’ and ‘We didn’t litigate because we wanted to get the money in’ and yet you did worse on the money – it leaves me believing that you are not serving the British taxpayer.”

    Responding to Hodge’s comments, Homer insisted: “That is absolutely not the case.”

    Never been a mauling like that before it was brutal tbh still they have you left to defend their “honour” the lucky sods.

    PS the quote [ as I know how much you rely on facts for your views] is

    “I believe only we and the Irish have convicted anyone.”

    She is not even certain about that

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    jambalaya – Member

    Evidence from head of HMRC to Commons Committee

    What is written in the newspapers would not pass the test as being evidence
    The Fernch and Belgians are considering action
    The only countries who have prosecuted anyone is UK and Ireland

    BBC link

    I can’t see that quote anywhere in your link. I doesn’t appear to exist. And if it really is a quote did they really misspell “French” ?

    Although I am not really interested in the schoolboy excuses HMRC offers when faced with a grilling from the Public Accounts Committee.

    The FT reports that France is prosecuting HSBC for money laundering, I accept that as they have no reason to lie. Belgium has already charged HSBC with money laundering. And 2 years ago the US fined HSBC for money laundering.

    What has the UK done ?

Viewing 40 posts - 41 through 80 (of 152 total)

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