• This topic has 37 replies, 28 voices, and was last updated 6 years ago by DezB.
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  • Attitudes from drivers v bike type
  • doncorleoni
    Free Member

    OK. I am bored at work and pondering something and wondered if any of you lot share my observation.

    I commute to work pretty much daily. 12 miles each way. For the past 6 weeks I have been mixing my bikes up a bit for a change.

    2 weeks on drop bar cx
    2 weeks on the flat bar 29er
    2 weeks on the flat bar 69er

    Did not have any issues at all on the flat bar bikes. Couple of close passes but that’s about it. Wearing baggies, reflective high visibility jacket. People also let me out of junctions and held back to pass.

    The two weeks on the drop bar cx wearing my leggings and top (hence looking more like a roadie) I had plenty of trouble. Loads more close passes. No one let me out in the always blocked meadows roundabout & even got the dreaded shout about road tax and some tit in a mondeo called me a cycling ****.

    I don’t think I rode any differenly between switching between bikes.

    I am wondering if driver attitudes and aggression change when they see a mtb on the road vs a road looking bike (to most the cx is basically a road bike).

    Or maybe I was just unlucky for the two weeks riding the crosser.

    This is not a road bike vs mtb post at all but it is an interesting observation (for me anyway)!

    submarined
    Free Member

    WTF is a 69er? Consider my mind boggled.
    And no, no difference between road or MTB.

    In fact, last week in the piddling rain, a driver stopped to let me out onto a main road before he turned into the junction, I think he was sympathetic of my drowned rat progress!

    globalti
    Free Member

    You’ve just been unlucky, 99.9% of drivers haven’t a clue about the difference between road bikes or mountain bikes; all they see (if they see you at all) is a member of that hated tribe who jump red lights, ride on the pavement and might delay them a few seconds in their important mission.

    To me as a driver, drivers will assess the likely threat to their progress and road space within a couple of seconds of spotting a cyclist or anything else moving more slowly than themselves. Maybe I’m biased because I’m a cyclist but I believe drivers will give more respect to a cyclist who looks serious, is making reasonable progress, seems to be aware of their presence behind and behaves like another driver, in other words good road position and not taking the pee by breaking traffic rules. OTOH drivers won’t pay much heed to a cyclist who is wobbling timidly along in the gutter looking like an amateur and offering no competition for road space.

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    daern
    Free Member

    Maybe I’m biased because I’m a cyclist but I believe drivers will give more respect to a cyclist who looks serious, is making reasonable progress, seems to be aware of their presence behind and behaves like another driver, in other words good road position and not taking the pee by breaking traffic rules.

    This, to some extent at least. Being very clear about how you signal your intention on the road (not necessarily through waving your arms, but through bike positioning) seems to make a huge difference to me. If you make yourself look like a car, on the whole you’ll get treated like a car.

    prawny
    Full Member

    It just seems to go in waves for me, some days/weeks it’s just wall to wall c…s. This morning I had truck drivers and car drivers alike pulling over and giving me space and even the odd thumbs up.

    Weird.

    I only ever ride the ride bike though, can’t stomach a 40 mile round trip on an MTB, will give it a try at some point this year though, going to lightly commuterize the Bizango.

    globalti
    Free Member

    If you make yourself look like a car, on the whole you’ll get treated like a car.

    This. Don’t forget that for much of the time a road bike will be moving at about double the speed of a mountain bike, which means drivers will assess you as less of a threat to their progress. I guess also that my attitude stems from 12 years as a motorcyclist, where I definitely behaved and was treated as another car.

    kelron
    Free Member

    There’s been studies suggesting your appearance has a big effect on how drivers treat you – stuff like giving more space to cyclists not wearing helmets, or dressed in casual clothing.

    Might not be so much about the type of bike as giving the impression of being a ‘serious’ cyclist and hence drivers don’t feel they have to be as careful around you. Most accidents are carelessness rather than malice.

    doncorleoni
    Free Member

    Submarined… 69 = a 26″ rear wheel and 29″ front. Trek did a stock bike like this but mine is a shed build.

    Certainly not twice as fast on my cx. Average 15mph on the cx with 40mm nano’s and about 13 on the solaris with big apples.

    Probably more to do with the “look” as suggested above. Also flat bars are 800 mm wide so wondering if the wider bars give more road presence.

    Interesting discussions though so thanks

    centralscrutinizer
    Free Member

    Might not be so much about the type of bike as giving the impression of being a ‘serious’ cyclist and hence drivers don’t feel they have to be as careful around you. Most accidents are carelessness rather than malice.

    Ha ha. That could explain why drivers always seem to give me loads of time and space while I dawdle along roads on my MTB.

    hols2
    Free Member

    They might be swinging in close to get a perve at your arse in those tight leggings.

    DezB
    Free Member

    Or maybe I was just unlucky for the two weeks riding the crosser

    Without a time-machine there’s no way to tell. I’ve ridden drop bars to work for the last 25 odd years and some days are good, some days aren’t good.
    I don’t reckon there’s any correlation between clothes worn, bike ridden, type of helmet, whatever. Just by chance, you happen to be on the road at the same place, same time as a thick/entitled/arrogant/clueless/moronic/dick in a bad mood/etc.

    philjunior
    Free Member

    Hmm. I think there could be something to this. But I’ve had people do close passes and other totally **** manoeuvres even when towing kids in normal clothing. Never considered it scientifically though.

    maccruiskeen
    Full Member

    WTF is a 69er?

    A bit of a mouthful

    DezB
    Free Member

    I was (in my car) following a woman driving her lovely all-powerful SUV type piece of shite through a narrow, winding road, with speed bumps on it and parked cars. Some children, 10-12 year olds came riding in the opposite direction just as she was going to go road one of the bends. Did she wait that half second to give these kids a bit of room to come past? Did she bollox, gave them about 2cm of room past the end of their handlebars. Some people are just bloody useless arrogant sods. It doesn’t matter who you are what you’re riding or wearing.

    Malvern Rider
    Free Member

    I ride a number of diff bikes (MTB, road/gravel, Dutch shopper)

    Last straw for me was a short foray in the summer on the Dutch Shopper. Along a minor coastal road with blind hills. After 5 mins of entering the road I had three very close (<18″) passes forcing me to take primary. Once I had I taken primary I almost immediately had two more close passes (white-lining) on blind crests, so they endangered me, themselves, and any unseen oncoming traffic (I couldn’t see ahead and my eyes were positioned above the overtaking car roof). F*** that. Walked along the verge pushing bike then went at bridleway at nearest opp.

    Have experienced this on whatever bike, but after 39 years of riding/commuting I feel qualified to say that the last decade has seen a marked decline in (UK) driving standards and awareness.

    Now I ride mostly at night, lit and reflectored up like a beacon. Offroad where possible.

    thepurist
    Full Member

    I had a first (for me) last week – I actually got passed on the left by somone on a single carriage way. It was at a X roads (Sandhurst for anyone who knows) where a single carriageway runs E-W and a dual carriageway N-S. I was heading E, took a decent road position at the front of the lights but didn’t account for the fact that the traffic islands that separate the dual carriagway are set back a couple of metres from the line of the road I was on, so the first thing I heard was the unmistakeable sound of a crappy ford diesel engine being redlined, then a honk of a horn and the cab of a flat bed truck passed (close) on my left then cut back right to actually go down the road rather than onto the pavement. Fortunately I braked and swerved to avoid being side-swiped. Caught the same truck a few hundred yards later as it was in a queue for some roadworks, and decided not to bother with even acknowledging the muppet.

    imnotverygood
    Full Member

    kelron – Member
    There’s been studies suggesting your appearance has a big effect on how drivers treat you – stuff like giving more space to cyclists not wearing helmets, or dressed in casual clothing.

    What studies are these? The only one I can think of, Dr Walker’s, demonstrated the opposite.

    teasel
    Free Member

    Very good, Maccruiskeen. I was trying to think up some sort of smutty retort to that question but was unable to shake the Bill & Ted bollox to reach anything meaningful…

    gwaelod
    Free Member

    Lots of Dr Walkers stuff on Transport Pschology linked to from his bio page at Bath

    http://www.bath.ac.uk/psychology/staff/ian-walker/

    He’s also just done the Transcontinental 2017

    jekkyl
    Full Member

    what’s the benefit of having differing size wheels? and the smaller one at the back!? (the drive wheel) Are you that skint that you can’t afford another 29″ wheel? I’m guessing not since you have 3 bikes. 🙂

    kerley
    Free Member

    Haven’t found any difference when swapping bars between drop and wide risers. I don’t wear a helmet but do wear lycra.

    funkmasterp
    Full Member

    If I ride to work in normal clothes with no helmet and no hi-viz I get lots of room, people waiting to pass and general courteous behaviour from most drivers. Wear a helmet and dress in bike gear and it’s the opposite. I put it down to bike gear dehumanising me in the eyes of most drivers. As a result I now never wear bike gear or a helmet when commuting. YMMV

    DezB
    Free Member

    Are you that skint that you can’t afford another 29″ wheel?
    Slackens the front? Didn’t Dirt review a bike a few years back that Brant had stuck a 29″ on the front? And they were raving. (Mad).
    Stop changing the subject!

    Here’s the pertinent conclusion from Dr.Walker’s research on clothing
    “This suggests there is little riders can do, by altering their appearance, to prevent the very closest overtakes”
    Type of bike wasn’t studied, but I’d guess it’s the same. (I may have mentioned my views on this already.)

    funkmasterp
    Full Member

    “This suggests there is little riders can do, by altering their appearance, to prevent the very closest overtakes”

    I think we should test this to its logical conclusion. Who’s in?

    DezB
    Free Member

    SMIDSY mate you was all in black!

    hols2
    Free Member

    what’s the benefit of having differing size wheels?

    Moto-X bikes have bigger wheels on the front. There have been a few mountain bikes that tried it. The Spesh BigHit had a 26 on the front and a 24 on the back and there used to be a few 96ers back when 29 inch wheels were introduced. The idea is that the big wheel rolls over obstacles easier, but the small wheel lets you have shorter chainstays, is stronger, and the rim and tyre are lighter, so acceleration is improved. That’s in theory anyway, whether it is worth the hassle is another question.

    imnotverygood
    Full Member

    Walker’s second study did not support the findings of the first & was slighly more diverse in the clothes the rearcher wore.
    http://www.bath.ac.uk/news/2013/11/26/overtaking-cyclists/

    theboatman
    Free Member

    I commute and ride a road bike, but most of my fun riding is MTB from my door which involves some road link ups, and never really noticed a difference to car behaviour. Some day’s are all good, but there is always some angry tool or numpty out there. That said, some days I’ve pulled the odd dick move, so I’m not one to get stressed about it.

    tdog
    Free Member

    Try to enhance your ability to not come into any conflict with drivers and do yourself a favour at same time by fitting plus tyres or ride a Surly ICT for greater road presence.

    But yeah I get what you are getting at for sure.

    thecaptain
    Free Member

    The really big difference is being on a tandem versus any sort of single-seater.

    Couldn’t be anything to do with the fact that it’s a hell of a lot bigger risk trying to bully 2 people…

    tjagain
    Full Member

    I am sure there is a correlation between dress and type of bikes with bad interactions with other road user. Causation I am not so sure? Is it the helmetless hippie pootling along looks less of a threat so is given more courteosy? Or are they just less likely to get into confrontation any? IME most confrontation comes from “riding assertively” rightly or wrongly

    mikertroid
    Free Member

    I had the fortune to have cycled round New York quite a bit recently. Although busy (understatement!) cars and trucks give you room and treat you as part of the ‘traffic flow’.

    Back to my Cotswold village and drivers don’t give you an inch.

    I think uk attitudes towards cyclists is awful. Not helped by that idiot killing the pedestrian the other day.

    We as a society need to have a change of attitude. Maybe when e bikes become more commonplace as a form of commmuting it might change things.

    Malvern Rider
    Free Member

    We as a society need to have a change of attitude. Maybe when e bikes self-driving cars become more commonplace as a form of commmuting transport it might change things.

    ftfy 8)

    stevextc
    Free Member

    Walker’s second study did not support the findings of the first & was slighly more diverse in the clothes the rearcher wore.

    The summary linked is obviously biased anyway … a correlation between longer vehicles leaving less space ??? If he had written wider vehicles leave less space that would doubtless have sabotaged the agenda.

    I have no idea where the sample is from but he seems to be looking specifically for some universal and drivers being humans are going to base their behaviour on experience.

    London has sets of riders seeking different identities for example … those clans will tend to behave the same and wear similar clothing.
    A different clan of cyclists in Bath might well choose different clothing…

    I was in Amsterdam yesterday and there was a huge difference in riding styles between the lycra clad crowd and the BSO’s and mother’s with kids etc.
    I was just waiting for a colleague at the ferry so watched a few board and disembark the main difference I noticed was the lycra clad crowd all rode onto the ferry at speed…and pushed their way to the front (where you get off) then when they disembarked they just rode at the people trying to get on whereas the BSO types sauntered up and mostly walked onto the ferry… and waited until the lycra crowd had vacated the exit… one or two not even taking the bikes onto the ferry

    What seemed to be happening was that the lycra clad expected right of way.. they have a right to ride as fast as possible the whole time and arriving a minute earlier at work is more important than riding over a child who should have seen their lycra and walked in the road instead of daring to walk on on the pedestrian area anyway… and pedestrians and slower cyclists were expected to just move.. this is reinforced by their group behaviour…

    I can imagine if you went out into the countryside where people might be commuting much further then the lycra might be more prevalent and people less self identifying by their clothes. The point really is that there are a whole load of riders se each other every day as they use the same ferry… and what they wear has as much to do with joining a tribe or clan as anything else.

    How others perceive them and how they perceive themselves has a lot to do with how they choose to project themselves… it’s no different to wearing a football top/scarf which where I grew up meant you were out looking for a fight and most had no interest in actually watching a game or even going to the game.. they would instead just congregate outside.. whereas where I live now the local club is very family oriented.. the only time you see people really wearing the local clubs colours is going to watch the game and violence is unknown..

    Of course, some people are wearing lycra for practical reasons… have nothing to do with other lycra wearers … but the human brain loves to class people into them and us and tribes… I’m sure some of the football top wearing crowd ACTUALLY wanted to see the game and avoid trouble but in certain areas that was just not possible as if someone saw you then you were automatically classified

    Based on the link I don’t see any study into how riders behaved differently in different geographies according to clothing choice…

    ianfitz
    Free Member

    In Sheffield SYP are trialing the close pass initiative that WMP started.

    So far they have not spoken to any drivers because, and this is hardly believable, their riders have not yet had any close passes.

    That is not my experience of riding on the road in Sheffield. But it worth noting that during this trial the riders are in police uniform! Now I realise this is not science but it does suggest to me that drivers are giving riders they can see are cops more space.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    It’s the lycra not the bike (tho possibly the more stretched roadie position)

    Or maybe not

    There was that helmet close pass study

    Since debunked….

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3783373/

    DezB
    Free Member

    riders are in police uniform! Now I realise this is not science but it does suggest to me that drivers are giving riders they can see are cops more space

    Maybe Walker could do another “scientific” study as to why police uniform presents close passes…

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