I’m slightly saddened by folk who say things like “I don’t like modern art” or “I don’t understand art” It’s the same lazy pedestrianism that declares “I don’t know how my computer works” or “Ohhh, I can’t do maths”. It’s a sort of proudly announced self limiting ignorance*

I don’t agree.
The problem with art is that, unlike science, there is no right answer. Which gives art experts the opportunity to talk all sorts of BS to justify their jobs.
There is nothing wrong in saying ‘I don’t like that’. You don’t need to justify your position or feel inferior because of it.

The problem with art is that, unlike science, there is no right answer. Which gives art experts the opportunity to talk all sorts of BS to justify their jobs.

Only a non-scientist could imagine that scientists don’t spout BS to justify their jobs !! 🙂

What is it conveying to me? What emotion is a collection of marbles going to spark in me?

They are questions you should be asking yourself, not somebody else. It’s like eating an apple and asking the grocer to tell you what it looks and tastes like. Making art requires being aware of one’s own experience (of living); appreciating it clearly requires at least a degree of the same, not to mention a touch of imagination.

…it doesn’t engage with me at all.

It’s a painting, you’re supposed to engage with it. See above.

richmars

The problem with art is that, unlike science, there is no right answer. Which gives art experts the opportunity to talk all sorts of BS to justify their jobs.

That’s not a problem with art, it’s a problem you have with art critics.

There is nothing wrong in saying ‘I don’t like that’. You don’t need to justify your position or feel inferior because of it.

Of course there’s nothing saying “I don’t like that”, just don’t expect to get a job as an art critic if that’s all you have to say. And saying “I don’t like that” is quite different from saying “modern art is all rubbish” which is a blanket statement you often hear from people who nickc is referencing – people wearing their ignorance as a badge of honor.

Three_Fish – Member

What is it conveying to me? What emotion is a collection of marbles going to spark in me?

They are questions you should be asking yourself, not somebody else.[/quote]

The question is rhetorical – the work conveys nothing more than the surface because it’s just an exercise in technique.

the work conveys nothing more tha what’s on the surface because it’s just an exercise in technique.

Speak for yourself.

*Generally*

There is nothing wrong in saying ‘I don’t like that’. You don’t need to justify your position or feel inferior because of it.

I’m not suggesting that one is inferior because you don’t like a particular painter.

But…If I then ask you “why don’t you like it?” and you answer with something like “It’s just daubs on a canvas, or “it’s not a picture of anything”

That’s a different answer to

“I understand that the artists was trying to make an image that is a reflection of the ghost of his father in a dream, that was revealed to him as the figure of Christ…but I don’t think he managed to convey that fear or the fragility of life, It doesn’t say anything to me”

For example

Yes, the last one may appear “poncy” or “arty” but it’s the same argument that people use when they don’t want to learn, and that’s sad.
You are saying “don’t judge me for that fact that I can’t be arsed to learn about something”.

jimjam – Member
Google Charlotte Harris – marbles, the young lass from our sailing club then tell me her efforts are worth less than an unmade bed.
You’re looking at the bed as if it’s a final statement of Tracy Emin’s technical ability – it’s not. It’s just a medium she chose to express an idea. When I look at Tracey Emin’s sketches I can see a massive Egon Schiele influence, and by extension Klimt and Oskar Kokoschka. But sometimes painting or drawing aren’t the right medium to convey something.

That idea what was it again ‘I’ve been shagged a lot and don’t make the bed afterwards”?

jimjam – Member
Re the marbles. What is the artist trying to convey? What’s she trying to tell us about herself? What emotion is she trying to elicit? Is there some hidden subtext beyond marbles or is it just someone showing off how well they draw marbles?

She’s lost her marbles?

With all due respect, this is exactly the highbrow bullshit I mean, why does she have to have had to be trying to convey something other than a nice decorative painting to hang on a wall? I’ll ask her next time I see her, I missed this post or I would have asked her last night, turns out she’s given up painting only brush she’s held was used to paint the kitchen in the last two years, a tragedy if it becomes permanent. Her architect partner can afford to support them both in a very modest house in what was once the wrong end of Town, contrast that with Tracey Emins fortunes.

As I said, Art is fickle bullshit, just like life.

She could have save a lot of time and just taken a photo of the marbles. Whatever the painting conveys the photo would have done exactly the same as she has added nothing to it at all.

As I said, Art is fickle bullshit, just like life.

You need to get those feelings down on some canvas.

jimjam – Member
When I look at Tracey Emin’s sketches I can see a massive Egon Schiele influence, and by extension Klimt and Oskar Kokoschka.

Yes but so what? Does the fact that Emin has a Schiele book make her a good artist? Its a lazy way of trying to say an artist is good.

What makes her a good artist?

For me its her brand, her shtick- she’s got it completely nailed, so easily identifiable. She’s cornered the market in emo quilts and scruffy mis spelled drawings.

nickc – Member

That’s a different answer to

“I understand that the artists was trying to make an image that is a reflection of the ghost of his father in a dream, that was revealed to him as the figure of Christ…but I don’t think he managed to convey that fear or the fragility of life, It doesn’t say anything to me”

Why is that better than “whatever it’s suppose to be, I don’t get it”? Why is it better to be able to say what it is that it’s not conveying? “It’s not a picture of anything” really gives the same answer.

graemecsl

jimjam – Member
Re the marbles. What is the artist trying to convey? What’s she trying to tell us about herself? What emotion is she trying to elicit? Is there some hidden subtext beyond marbles or is it just someone showing off how well they draw marbles?

She’s lost her marbles?

With all due respect, this is exactly the highbrow bullshit I mean, why does she have to have had to be trying to convey something other than a nice decorative painting to hang on a wall?[/quote]

So the idea that art can have subtext or can be a form of self expression is “highbrow bullshit”? If all painting and drawing was just to replicate reality it becomes nothing more than a technical pissing match (which is completely irrelevant thanks to cameras).

She absolutely does not have to convey anything more than a “nice painting hanging on a wall”. She can paint whatever she wants, however she wants. But you cannot then bemoan the fact that she isn’t as famous or as wealthy as wealthy, famous modern artists when she’s doing something that was redundant 200 years ago.

Lifelike painting and drawing is a technical skill that has been refined to the point where it’s nearly a science. The renaissance masters did the heaving lifting for us and people who followed them refined it. Anyone reading this thread can learn to paint or draw realistically, you just need to put in the hours. Like any skill the more you practice, the better you get. That marbles lady is very very skilled but she has devoted herself to mastering a skill which is not considered as deserving of merit as other forms of artistic expression in 2017.

ctk

Yes but so what? Does the fact that Emin has a Schiele book make her a good artist? Its a lazy way of trying to say an artist is good.

What makes her a good artist?

You misunderstand. People like to shit on Tracey Emin (or other modern artists) because they see the finished product and don’t accept it as a valid medium for expression because they also own a bed, or a toilet…or whatever. They automatically conclude that the artist hasn’t done “the work”, that they can’t paint or draw, that they are somehow lesser or technically inept They don’t see the years of artistic and personal development where a person explores one medium then grows out of it and finds another medium to supersede it or better convey what they are trying to convey.

The point about Schiele was (in my opinion) I can see that she can paint or draw like Schiele, who is a master. Or she could paint like Klimt, another famous master. But she is infinitely more famous today because she abandoned tradional mediums than she would be if she simply dedicated herself to mastering the art of painting, see marbles girl for reference.

why does she have to have had to be trying to convey something other than a nice decorative painting to hang on a wall?

She can do whatever she likes with her art, but you asked why her work was not valued as highly as some other artists. People will pay more money for work that does something original than they will for straightforward decorative art. Sometimes that original thing is a controversial idea that people are still arguing about 20 years later.
That doesn’t diminish the quality of your friend’s art.

Yes but so what? Does the fact that Emin has a Schiele book make her a good artist? Its a lazy way of trying to say an artist is good.

No, it’s just pointing out that the reason Tracey Emin does what she does is not because she isn’t a technically good draughtsperson (or whatever that’s called). She does what she does because she wants to, not because it’s all she can do.

So the idea that art can have subtext or can be a form of self expression is “highbrow bullshit”?

Exactly that. Oh and not wishing to overly trouble you but we haven’t had the cheque yet for the pickled Shark in Perspex, we’ve had the shark a few hours now and it’s beginning to smelll, you do still want it don’t you?

Oh I nearly forgot we have a set of new clothes returned from an Emporer client of ours also due to none payment , would they interest you by any chance?

graemecsl

So the idea that art can have subtext or can be a form of self expression is “highbrow bullshit”?

Exactly that.[/quote]

I get the feeling you’re deliberately being obtuse now for the sake of it but just in case my own knowledge is lacking, please educate me about the lack of self expression, creativity and meaning in art.

Oh and not wishing to overly trouble you but we haven’t had the cheque yet for the pickled Shark in Perspex, we’ve had the shark a few hours now and it’s beginning to smelll, you do still want it don’t you?

I appreciate your tenacity flogging that joke but basically, if you could do what Damien Hirst does, you’d be Damien Hirst. Tracey Emin the same.

You are saying “don’t judge me for that fact that I can’t be arsed to learn about something”.

No I’m not.
I’m saying why is your opinion more valid then mine?
Why are you right and I’m the stupid one?
Art is subjective. There is no right or wrong. But some people take pleasure in acting like there is, and they belittle anyone who doesn’t agree with their view.

I appreciate your tenacity flogging that joke but basically, if you could do what Damien Hirst does, you’d be Damien Hirst. Tracey Emin the same.

Unquestionably good artists and what you say is true. They both understand that flogging their own personality is part of it. I will say both of their work leaves me cold, its just product mass produced in a factory by a team of people. (At least Hirst jokes on this fact in a lot of his work) TE has nothing interesting to say at all but DH is often interesting in interviews etc.

richmars

Art is subjective.

Correct.

There is no right or wrong.

Not entirely correct. Politics is subjective but broadcasters still hire political correspondents instead of some bloke from the pub. The performance of a sports team is subjective but we still deign to former athlete’s to tell us how they percieved it. In other words the opinion’s of people who have studied something, or are immersed in something carry more weight than a casual observer.

The concept of art being whatever you like, and everyone’s opinion being equally valid is a conflation based on advice regarding what to buy and how to respond.

All I can think with Emin is are you still really in the same place emotionally as you were 25 years ago? Have you really not learned to spell? Its fake emotion by a fake artist to make money. By my terms she is a poor artist, by history/ the market of course she is a good artist.

ctk

All I can think with Emin is are you still really in the same place emotionally as you were 25 years ago?

I’d just point out that I’m not some kind of Tracey Emin fan but I would argue the validity of her choice of medium against someone who would say, that’s just a bed etc.

jimjam – Member
I get the feeling you’re deliberately being obtuse now for the sake of it but just in case my own knowledge is lacking, please educate me about the lack of self expression, creativity and meaning in art.

Funny, I get the feeling your trying to have a highbrow discussion about Art with someone who thinks Highbrow is bullshit. Every morning I shower, opposite the shower, is a Picasso, not an original, not one of his best, not even one I particularly like, but my daughter bought it for us as an anniversary gift, or she copied it at school, I can’t remember which, but it’s colour goes with the decor of the bathroom and it’s feature wall, also the latest bullshit I have to look at whilst I take a dump every morning, it’s currently the trend I’m told.. the feature coloured wall. Meanwhile the painting I paid 750 quid for just because i was stupidly pissed at an auction for a cause I totally forget, (except a total tosser I was with accidentally fell in the moat and broke his arm)no longer hangs where it did because it no longer goes with the decor, wrong colour, are you getting it yet? Art isn’t someone’s self expression, not to me, it’s decoration, something to look at, it might have sentimental reasons, it might not it might provoke memories, it might not. I really wish I’d bought those marbles when I had the chance and the cash as I did in those days, but sadly not, ironically they would have gone with the current decor.

I appreciate your tenacity flogging that joke but basically, if you could do what Damien Hirst does, you’d be Damien Hirst. Tracey Emin the same.

I could probably have done what Damien Hirst does long before he was around, how about going to the beach, arranging three massive industrial heaters, stop framing them, moving them again, stop framing that, then repeating it a third time up and over the swell of the shingle using a hired crane, the title of the picture ?Heatwave, it was for an Industrial heating company called ITT Reznor we probably got paid a couple of hundred quid, the airbrush artist probably got fifty it was the seventies and obviously we’re not Damien Hirst.

But whatever let’s just beg to differ, nothing you say is going to change my opinion and clearly nothing I say will sway yours and as Richmars quite rightly points out, neither of our opinions is right or wrong, they are just different opinions, what is wrong and often the case, wealth and bullshit trying to sway opinion and value in the Art world that is a fact that cannot be denied.

I mentioned in this thread back in 2013 “Do you have a favourite painting?” why I like Rothko, his paintings provoke a response in myself that I often find unsettling yet at other times I find weirdly uplifting.

nothing you say is going to change my opinion

How do you know?

There’s an artist who’s work is regularly showing up in a Bath gallery, and given the money an, in particular space, I’d have a bunch of his sculptures, I love them to bits.
His name’s Rick Kirby

Perhaps not to everyone’s taste but it is mine, the face sculptures are beautiful, and the figure in the streaming cape I could look at for hours.

Of course there’s nothing saying “I don’t like that”, just don’t expect to get a job as an art critic if that’s all you have to say. And saying “I don’t like that” is quite different from saying “modern art is all rubbish/The Beatles/Pink Floyd/Elbow/etc/etc” which is a blanket statement you often hear from people who nickc is referencing – people wearing their ignorance as a badge of honor.

Just a different form of art, but it makes the same point…

I watched something on TV the other evening about the 25ft sculpture of an angel made completely out of 100,000 knives from a knife amnesty in this country.
It was incredibly symbolic and pretty much blew my tiny mind.
I love it that physical things like this can actually bring out such unexpected emotions in you.

Afraid I don’t understand the crap in a can thing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artist%27s_Shit?wprov=sfla1

It’s interesting and I dont claim to understand it but highlighting the way a price can be attributed to something like gold which in many ways is only valuable because we say it is compared to shit which we do not place a value on. Now the shit is worth more than gold which becomes slightly ironic. Perhaps the art/point of the piece is looking at how people now value these cans and not the cans themselves.

One of the best ways to spend an afternoon in the Mona galleries is to find a comfortable seat and watch the reactions of people to the exhibits rather than the exhibition itself.

highlighting the way a price can be attributed to something like gold

Fool and their money, in other words.

Yes and no and a bit in the middle. If it makes you think about it then maybe it’s working.

Art isn’t someone’s self expression, not to me, it’s decoration

Totally sympathise. Someone once bought me a copy of Shakespeare, but the damn’ thng was just not heavy enough to keep the door open. I had to go and get myself a good big Game of Thrones hardback to do the job.

Somafunk posted that link from 2013, my choice then was Jackson Pollock… it still is.. but his mid career era (I do like his later stuff too)

But I’m more a living sculpture kinda guy..

graemecsl

Funny, I get the feeling your trying to have a highbrow discussion about Art with someone who thinks Highbrow is bullshit.

It’s not even “Highbrow”, it’s depressingly basic. Art is the creative expression of an idea. Creative being the key word. We got into this because I challenged your assertion that photorealistic painting was the highest form or art.

Every morning I shower, opposite the shower, is a Picasso, not an original, not one of his best, not even one I particularly like, ……. but it’s colour goes with the decor of the bathroom ……. Meanwhile the painting I paid 750 quid for just because i was stupidly pissed at an auction for a cause I totally forget, no longer hangs where it did because it no longer goes with the decor, wrong colour, are you getting it yet?

You’ve made your opinion’s perfectly clear. But let’s recap, since you’ve spread them over a fair few pages.

Photo realism to me is the highest form of human Art Technique,

slapping paint about, is the lowest,

Damien Hirst, That Tracey Emmen, frankly they offend my sensibilities

Art is fickle bullshit

subtext or self expression is highbrow bullshit

I could probably have done what Damien Hirst does long before he was around

Art isn’t someone’s self expression, not to me, it’s decoration, something to look at.

I asked you to educate me about the absence of self expression in art but instead you’ve redoubled your efforts to be ignorant (it might be worth considering how closely your view of art aligns with fascists). There is subtext in most good “art” and it’s there to express something other than the totally literal. Someone above made reference to Pink Floyd and The Beatles but you don’t even have to get as “highbrow” as The Beatles, bloody George Michael was making veiled references to his homosexuality in his pop songs. Avatar isn’t just about big blue space people.

Even something as low brow as a horror film can have layers of subtext. George A Romero’s films always have some form of social commentary, the most obvious and celebrated being Dawn of the Dead. Starship Troopers is another great example. The fact that you want to ignore it doesn’t mean it’s not real.

You can dismiss it if you want, you can regard the all visual art as wallpaper but it’s your loss, to me it’s akin to regarding people as meat.

Kindly explain the literal meaning of this

or this

or this

…but remember, self expression is bullshit and subtext doesn’t exist.

A good program on iplayer a few weeks ago Here – Forest, Field, Sky : Art out of Nature including Andy Goldsworthy, James Turrell (amazing) David Nash and Charles Jencks

including Andy Goldsworthy, James Turrell (amazing) David Nash and Charles Jencks

David Nash once made me a cup of tea – another of the good guys! 🙂

His studio is astounding!

Force of Nature is a very good doc about his work – not sure if its still lurking on the iPlayer somewhere

jimjam – Member
Kindly explain the literal meaning of this
.but remember, self expression is bullshit and subtext doesn’t exist.

Hmm explain a literal meaning where none exists? I mean that’s going some for a philistine and a fascist don’t you think?

Can’t you accept that somebody can be a complete philistine, fascist <insert whatever> yet still have an appreciation of art for his/her own good reasons?

Oh and by the way I’ve come up with a cheaper alterative for your shark requirement, have you ever considered keeping tropical fish? Here, a nice red tail shark and it moves about…

PS, I love those sculptures of Count Zero’s by the way.