LHS – Member

you are making the US out to be a bunch of idiots who are electing a murderer – I guess the UK got there first.

Where do you get that from LHS ?

I haven’t even expressed an opinion on the story ! ……..read my posts.

For all your accusations about me having ‘made up my mind’ and having a ‘very unshakeable viewpoint’ you apparently have already decided on my behalf, what I think.

And you come out with some ol’bollox about “you read what you WANT to read”, whilst you on the other hand, are reading fantasy posts which I have never written.

One of the reasons why I haven’t expressed any opinion on the story is that I am far far more interested in knowing why you claim we shouldn’t believe it, and why it is apparently “sh*t”.

You said, remember : “Don’t believe the sh*t you read in the newspaper”

I also said that your claim support for the Republican Party in the US is no different to support for the BNP in the UK is quite frankly unbelievable. And indeed it is – the Republican Party has huge support in the US, and the BNP has very little support in the UK.

You have tried to counter that by firstly, suggesting that Ilario Pantano is just a one-off maverick like Nick Griffin.
He isn’t.

He is the OFFICAL Republican Party candidate who has the full support of the second largest party in the US. The Republican Party will be urging their supporters to vote for him. This is NOT a man outside mainstream politics like Nick Griffin.

And secondly, by suggesting that Britain is in fact, worst.

No mate, if either of the two main parties were to stand a candidate with those sort of allegations levelled against them in a marginal seat, it would be the kiss of death for them. They certainly wouldn’t regain the seat from the opposition after almost 150 years.

And remember what we are talking about. According to the article (which you have provided no evidence is untrue) ‘US veteran killed unarmed Iraqis’ and ‘the basic facts are undisputed’. Presumably Ilario Pantano could sue the Guardian for telling lies about him ….the Yanks like doing that sort of thing I believe.

And he could also sue the judge who said that he had ‘desecrated the Iraqi’s bodies’ and should be ‘punished’ for it.

Ernie, there is no need for you to be really angry really so I would have a camomile tea and calm down a bit.

You cannot begin to imagine how deeply relaxed I am 😀

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backhander – Member

it very clearly states that North Carolina’s 7th congressional district might well be voting for a murderer

“Don’t you mean suspected but aquitted murderer?”

Nope, I mean : “might well be voting for a murderer”.

Might = used to indicate a possibility or probability

Wot ernie sed.

(Matthew 7:1-5)
7 “Stop judging that YOU may not be judged; 2 for with what judgment YOU are judging, YOU will be judged; and with the measure that YOU are measuring out, they will measure out to YOU. 3 Why, then, do you look at the straw in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the rafter in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Allow me to extract the straw from your eye’; when, look! a rafter is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First extract the rafter from your own eye, and then you will see clearly how to extract the straw from your brother’s eye.

Ernie you need to calm down a bit. You’re almost as sensationalist as that Guardian article.

I have explained why the article is sh*t because of the way it is written, from the very title which reads US veteran who killed unarmed Iraqis but then in light font underneath goes on to say, allegedly blah blah blah and all charges dropped to the fact that it makes no reference to the main witness being completly discredited and that they did find guns.

But then i guess you would say that its the usual american thing of covering things up and taking care of their own. Well, as per the tag above, people in glass houses and all that.

But as I said, everyone is entitled to their opinion so no point debating further.

Why are you seeking to blacken the name of a man that you will never come close to matching up to?

Big words. Perhaps you could explain to my dad (ex MO, 7 RHA) exactly what happened to Baha Mousa?

LHS – Member

I have explained why the article is sh*t because of the way it is written, from the very title which reads US veteran who killed unarmed Iraqis but then in light font underneath goes on to say, allegedly blah blah blah and all charges dropped to the fact that it makes no reference to the main witness being completly discredited and that they did find guns.

And you accuse me of ‘reading what I WANT to read’ ???

LOL ! You LHS, are reading stuff which isn’t even printed !!! 😀

There is absolutely no mention of the word “allegedly” under the title !

In fact the complete opposite is true. It strongly reaffirms what the title says by pointing out that, quote :

“The basic facts are undisputed“

And these it says, are the basic facts :

on 15 April 2004 Ilario Pantano, then a second lieutenant with the US marines, stopped and detained two Iraqi men in a car near Falluja. The Iraqis were unarmed and the car found to be empty of weapons.

Pantano ordered the two men to search the car for a second time and then, with no other US soldiers in view, unloaded a magazine of his M16A4 automatic rifle into them, before reloading and blasting a second magazine at them – some 60 rounds in total.

Over the corpses, he left a placard inscribed with the marine motto: “No better friend, No worse enemy.”

Now if you know the article to be false, then why the hell haven’t you provided proof, a link, or some sort of evidence, to suggest otherwise – do you expect people to simply believe some unknown bloke on the internet ?

I personally would be more than happy to know that the incident never occurred. I don’t relish being told that unarmed civilians have been callously murdered.

Although you have now completed shifted from initially not challenging the claim that the geezer was a highly undesirable character – you compared him to Nick Griffin remember. To now apparently suggesting that he was totally innocent of any wrong doing.

.

But then i guess you would say that its the usual american thing of covering things up and taking care of their own.

And that never happens ? Is that what you are saying ? Do you really expect people to believe that ?

The US will not even cooperate with Britain her “closest ally”, when British courts are investigating British deaths by US friendly fire

And as a general rule, the US will never convict (US) soldiers of murdering unarmed civilians.

The most famous murder in history of unarmed civilians by US troops was the My Lai Massacre, AKA as the “Pinkville Massacre”.

In that incident, several hundreds unarmed citizens in South Vietnam, all of whom were civilians and a majority of whom were women, children (including babies) and elderly people, were slaughtered.

Soldiers went berserk, gunning down unarmed men, women, children and babies. Families which huddled together for safety in huts or bunkers were shown no mercy. Those who emerged with hands held high were murdered. … Elsewhere in the village, other atrocities were in progress. Women were gang raped; Vietnamese who had bowed to greet the Americans were beaten with fists and tortured, clubbed with rifle butts and stabbed with bayonets. Some victims were mutilated with the signature “C Company” carved into the chest.

This mindless slaughter of totally innocent civilians was exposed to the world not by ‘a sensationalist Guardian article‘ but by a disgusted US helicopter pilot.

Initially the US tried to completely cover-up the massacre. But this vile act of barbarism caused so much outrage around the world, and increased so much domestic opposition to the U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War, that the authorities were forced to do “something”.

The facts were indisputable, and those guilty were 100% identifiable.

So this is what they did.

Out of the 26 U.S. soldiers who were initially charged with criminal offences for their actions at My Lai, only Second Lieutenant William Calley, who led one platoon, was convicted. He served three years house arrest.

And that’s it.

The most famous known massacre of unarmed civilians by US troops, and all of the guilty bar one, got no punishment at all. The most severe sentence was three years house arrest.

And for many Americans, William Calley was seen as an unjustly treated war hero. Just like the present Republican candidate in North Carolina’s 7th congressional district.

So don’t try to suggest LHS, that US soldiers don’t get away with murder. They do, and they know it.

So don’t try to suggest LHS, that US soldiers don’t get away with murder. They do, and they know it

No different from other nation soldiers in wars. Just because you like to America-bash, don’t view the rest of the world through rose tinted spectacles!! 🙄

LHS – very different as you would know if you took you rose tinted specs off.

This is a disgraceful case amongst many – for which the known perpetrator was not brought to justice. He shot unarmed civilians deliberately – knowing they were unarmed civilians. there is a long history of US forces doing this and escaping punishment.

Blimey.

wot ernie and tj said

According to the article (which you have provided no evidence is untrue)

Hahahah – Nice one Ernie!

Is that how the judicial system works now? Every man is innocent until his guilt is speculated upon by journalists?

LHS – you are being deliberately obtuse I think. No-one here is a fan of Tony Blair I don’t think, and yes he is responsible for many more deaths than this chap.

But to suggest this isn’t a slightly worrying development, or anything of any significance is a bit ridiculous.

And you’ve done more ‘bashing’ in this thread than anyone else as far as I can see.

Don’t get me wrong, not for one minute am I suggesting that anything like this is acceptable, far from it, and for those who know me understand my position on these things. My issue is the way that the press and to a certain extent a large number of the STW community LOVE to go down the America bashing route.

In the case of this thread, if you read a lot of articles out there there are some interesting elements that are left out in the Guardian report, including the main witness being discredited and that they found weapons in the house etc. Now, I wasn’t there, don’t have access to any further information, but the guy was found not guilty.

If you take the rose tinted spectacles off and looked around in the world, you would find similar instance having happened with other nation troops in many wars and conflicts – Iraq, Afghanisation, Congo, NI.

there there are some interesting elements that are left out in the Guardian report, including the main witness being discredited and that they found weapons in the house etc.

It does mention those things in the Guardian report.

And yes there are lots of awful things done by various nations’ troops including British ones – but I think the reason America comes in for more criticism is the fact that the US government often presents itself as a shining example of freedom and democracy for the rest of the world to follow.

is the fact that the US UK government often presents itself as a shining example of freedom and democracy for the rest of the world to follow

fixed it for you

So you ignored the face that you were wrong about the Guardian article – did you even read it properly? Then try and score a cheap point instead. 🙄

Yes the UK does it too, but to a lesser extent – and is much less dominant in world politics than the US.

It seems you are the one that needs to stop ‘bashing’ and ‘take off the rose tinted spectacles’.

Grumm, I’m not bashing, just merely pointing out the facts.

Bitter pill to swallow when pointed out?

Yes the UK does it too, but to a lesser extent

What sort of comment is that? Makes it all alright then?!! 😯

The facts like the ones you got wrong about the article you were slagging off you mean? Show me one ‘fact’ you have pointed out 😆

What sort of comment is that?

I meant that the UK tries to present itself as an example to other countries, but not nearly as much as the US. Which was an explanation for why the US receives so much criticism. Bit slow are we?

Bit slow are we?

Personal insults – Fantastic debating skills there. Applause

The UK tries to be the world police just as much as America does. There is no debating that one.

Yes the article mentions guns. But as a passing comment. It is a very clearly biased written article. But what else am I expecting from the media? I shouldn’t set my expectations so high!

Yes the UK does it too, but to a lesser extent

– What sort of comment is that?

Looks like the same sort as this one, no?

you would find similar instance having happened with other nation troops in many wars and conflicts – Iraq, Afghanisation, Congo, NI

The UK tries to be the world police just as much as America does. There is no debating that one.

Yeah, they even made a film about it.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZdJRDpLHbw[/video]