Viewing 9 posts - 41 through 49 (of 49 total)
  • Are the Chinese doping?
  • loum
    Free Member

    look at Ben Johnson in the 1988 Olympics. It is very reminiscent of that. Humans are far more homogenous than we give ourselves credit for. Winning by a little bit is the norm. Winning by a huge margin especially when that margin is waaay way way outside of your normal parameters of performance needs to be questioned as much as celebrated.

    Or look at Usain Bolt. Or Roger Bannister.
    Occasionally you get a star athlete come through, she could be the Bolt of the swimming world. Especially if she wins tonight. And hopefully she’ll go on and improve more as she matures, she is only 16.
    4.28.43 first,
    4.31.27 second,
    4.34.17 fifth, our own Hannah Miley, whose coach has stated that he believes 4.25 is possible and a valid target, and will be broken.
    The differences aren’t that huge, the targets are similar, they’re just ahead of us for the time being.
    Its normal that a record breaking time redefines what is possible, and usually it inspires rivals to up their game and realise their potential. Hopefully ours will take that sporting attitude, rather than the American one of slander and sour grapes.

    And do you have any evidence that she’s “way outside her normal parameters”? Do you know what times she’s been swimming this year in preparation?
    She’s knocked 5 seconds of her PB from 2010 when she was 14. Unbelievable?
    Stephanie Rice knocked 6 seconds of her PB in the run up to setting her record of 4.29.45 at the 2008 Olympics.

    bwaarp
    Free Member

    I don’t really like all this speculation, there are few facts sadly when it comes to doping, but IMHO some of the Chinese female athletes just look physically a bit (choosing words carefully) enhanced. Some XC riders appeared on the European scene before the Beijing Olympics on a points scoring mission. I was in the changing rooms with them and was pretty shocked – perhaps it’s genetics, perhaps not. And remember at the Aussie Olympics, the massive shoulders on the Chinese swimmer girls ? That tendency seems to have gone, bit obvious maybe.

    Two words…..Gene Doping.

    Specifically…. Repoxygen which I am sure Chinese laboratories have the capability of producing. The IOC as of this moment can do nothing to detect this. Sport is a joke and as trans-humanism takes off it will become increasingly more of a joke.

    alex222
    Free Member

    Sport is a joke and as trans-humanism takes off it will become increasingly more of a joke.

    Trans-humanism is not new. Its been going on ages. It’s also no joke

    The practice of entering animals into human events was first recorded at the 1936 Berlin Olympics, when a starting pistol caused British 200 metre runner Tom Booker to leap on his nearest competitor and start biting the man’s neck.

    After closer examination, Booker was revealed to be a cougar with a stick-on moustache.

    No joke at all

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    deadlydarcy
    Free Member

    😆

    molgrips
    Free Member

    For all you people thinking we’re all bitter about other people being faster than us – it has nothing to do with her times overall. It’s about the pattern of improvement over the years and the changes of speed during the race.

    The guy said he had no problem with meteoric athletes in general.

    And do you have any evidence that she’s “way outside her normal parameters”? Do you know what times she’s been swimming this year in preparation?

    No, but John Leonard does.

    She’s knocked 5 seconds of her PB from 2010 when she was 14. Unbelievable?

    Not at all. Leonard said that was perfectly reasonable. His issue was in the patterns of performance, not the overall times.

    choron
    Free Member

    Exactly, the difference between the last leg (which implied that she had an enormous amount of energy in reserve) and the first 3 (which were at a world class pace) is the suspicious factor to me.

    From my earlier link:

    Next, you look at what it “typical” in the 400IM race. For men, the best swimmers typically close in 57 to 59 seconds (check splits from London). This is about 19 to 23% SLOWER than the best men finish in an isolated 100m freestyle.

    For women, the TYPICAL (excluding Shiwen) final 100m freestyle takes 61 to 64 seconds. This is 18 to 22% slower than the best females swim 100m freestyle.

    So the sport shows that you have a normal pattern, a typical ratio of medley freestyle to best freestyle – they SHOULD BE between 18 and 23% slower at the end of a 400m IM than in a 100m freestyle by itself.

    Yet Shiwen is not. She does a 58.68 s final leg, which is only about 10% off the best 100m freestyle swimmers. The conclusion that I would draw from this is that her 100m freestyle leg is disproportionately fast not only by comparison to Lochte, but also to her peers, and to the best 100m freestyle swimmers.

    Scary thought then that there is a “reserve” there that would see her get even better. It would only cause more questioning though – imagine a strong world record of 4:30 lowered by 5 or 6 seconds by a 16-year old?

    Interesting times. Again, to stress the earlier point, this is an interesting discussion. And the doping aspect is important (don’t shy away from the question just because it’s politically incorrect – look where that got sport before), but this doesn’t prove anything. So let’s wait and see.

    donsimon
    Free Member

    I believe that any out of the ordinary result are clearly going to raise doubts. I would say possibly and I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s disqualified.

    loum
    Free Member

    For those still surprised or shocked by an “unbelievable” last leg, this is from last year, July 2011.
    Exactly the same pattern in beating the US world record holder at 200m IM. And quite a talking point in world swimming. (the last leg starts about 1:30 into the video below)
    I guess surprise is a fair reaction if you’ve never seen how Ye Shiwen swims before, and there’d be no reason to unless you follow international swimming as a hobby, or perhaps as a coach to the beaten swimmer?
    But if you had seen it, and a year later you faked surprise to imply cheating, then that could be seen as a very dirty PR trick.

    [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IK8KizeMzP0[/video]

    How Fast Was Shiwen Ye’s Closing 50 in the 200 IM? A Historical Perspective
    Posted on July 25, 2011, in International News
    In the women’s 200 IM, China’s Shiwen Ye came from out of nowhere to win the gold medal. She went into the final turn in 5th-place, and didn’t stop until she was the first one to the final touch, which includes making up a 1.4 second gap on then-leader Ariana Kukors of the United States (who by the way is also the World Record holder).

    The way that Ye swims the IM makes the race infinitely more exciting. No matter where swmimers are positioned going into the final 50, you know that Ye will be lurking. Take that rush you get when you see a great breaststroker charging the field on the third leg of an IM, and double it.

    Her swimming is going to keep television producers on her toes, because in many instances she won’t even be in the camera-shot when entering the last 50. It’s also going to be great for more casual swim fans to watch, because as soon as the see Ye burst from the back of the field to the finish, and Rowdy Gaines gonig bizerk while it happens, in London, they’re going to be hooked.

    This is not a new tactic to Ye. Even though she’s only 15-years old, she shows incredible patience and maturity. Moreso than any other IM’er in the world right now, she swims HER race. She doesn’t panic when she gets down by two body lengths. She gathers herself at that final wall and just takes off for the finish. It’s a very high-risk, high-reward strategy, and she executes it perfectly. Her 2:08.90 was easily a textile best, and it will be a wonder to see whether or not she can add even small improvements to her other strokes as she matures. If she does, this 200 IM World Record might suddenly not seem as untouchable as it once was.

    I was curious about just HOW fast a 29.42 closing 50 split on a 200 IM really was.

    To close her 200 IM-winning performance at the Beijing Olympics, Australia’s Stephanie Rice (who is also a very fast closer) split only a 30.09. Earlier that year, at Australian Olympic Trials, she closed in a 29.69, but still not all that close to Ye.
    When closing her World Record performance in Rome, Ariana Kukors finished in 29.84. She is not a great closer, but to swim a 2:06.15 and still not best Ye on one of the lengths is impressive.
    In 2009 at French Nationals, in polyurethane, Camille Muffat closed her European-Record 200 IM in 29.14. Amongst the 50-fastest 200 IM’s ever, that’s the only one that had a better closing tick that Ye, and hers was in rubber (which presumably allows a swimmer to conserve more energy for a strong finish). Even with that finish, Muffat’s closing time was still only 2:09.37.
    In textile, it is even more incredibly rare to break 30-seconds to close. In fact, amongst major swims in major competitions, Ye is the only one I can find who has done it (and she’s done it more than once).
    The next closest closing split I can find (major criteria again applies) is Katinka Hosszu’s 30.03 from the European Championships last year.
    Ye’s closing 50 would be seeded ahead of 34 swimmers in the individual 50 freestyle that will take place later in the meet.
    Amongst the top 10 200 freestylers in 2010, only three swimmers (Federica Pellegrini, Agnes Mutina, and Femke Heemskerk) managed to finish their 200 FREE faster than Ye’s 29.42. 200 freestylers, in general, close much faster than 200 IM’ers (partially because, as our astute readers pointed out, the split on a 200 free is counted from foot contact off of a flip-turn, rather than hand contact off of a touch turn in the IM, which makes the split that much more impressive).
    What a swim!

    from:
    http://theswimmerscircle.com/2011/07/25/how-fast-was-shiwen-yes-closing-50-in-the-200-im-a-historical-perspective/

    And for anyone that missed it last night 😆
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/18902398

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Anyway he didn’t say she was doping, he said he was worried about it. Which is a fair comment no?

Viewing 9 posts - 41 through 49 (of 49 total)

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