The more you organise the more you are taking responsibility for what happens surely? If someone asked me to sign a disclaimer I would, and would probably think it a bit odd (and maybe wonder what was coming) but a disclaimer cannot excuse negligence anyway. Again, the more you organise the more responsibility you are accepting (IMHO).
Stick with "we are going for a ride from x, going around y, its a bit tricky but we will be arsing around taking pics and laughing at each other as well, come along if you fancy it" and as far as I am concerned that is a fair invite with no promises to be broken.
Oh, I am not a lawyer, can you tell?
Chat Forum
[closed]
Are massive back country rides with big numbers of unknown riders sensible?
-
Posted 2 years ago #
-
Well, I'll agree inasmuch as disclaimers are pointless. We all bear a degree of responsibility to each other.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Don't know about anybody else but I don't ride in the Atacama desert
It's just tosh your post. I have organised loads of rides and am always completely upfront about the distance to be ridden, the type of terrain, being self-sufficient with food/drink, waterproofs. As long as you make it completely clear about what to expect.
And, FWIW, I have done loads of riding on my own - Wales, Cheviots, North York Moors, Dartmoor etc. as well as in the South. Personal responsibility together with a well-maintained bike.
In January, we had nearly 50 folk turn up at Swinley Forest for a ride and it was minus 7 degrees. Was I worried as organisor I would get sued for frostbite, hypothermia, damaged limbs - was I heck.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I once guided a 100 person ride 7miles under the sea on the seabed with diptheria and hypothermia and no one died but my bike got a bit rusty.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Forgot to mention, I normally give a little pep-talk that it's a PR exercise and we have to be nice and smiley to everyone. DO NOT give any other trail users the opportunity to have a pop at us.
This will be particuarly relevant when I lead 100 STW'ers around the Chilterns on 21st June - this is the one area where I have found we are not popular
Posted 2 years ago # -
>I once guided a 100 person ride 7miles under the sea on the seabed with diptheria and hypothermia and no one died but my bike got a bit rusty.
Yes, but I caught a cold as a result of said underwater epic and my mum will be pursuing legal action against yo ass.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Tracker - that was also one of the debates we had on the issue, and a lawyer rider made a similar point to us. I suspect you're right.
This debate did our collective heads in, cos legal people who had better knowledge took the line that liability was there, and it wouldn't necessarily be riders suing, it might be their union, partner, insurer, etc. I suppose they would say that, that's what they do when you ask their opinion. Personally we all felt this stinks, but nevertheless. We toyed with disclaimers - see above. But largely we ignored the issue, we just wanted to ride our bikes.
Then we had a couple of issues with newbies joining that were on the rash side of wreckless. Separately, someone self employed got injured and couldn't work. All of a sudden this silly legal stuff started to look more real.
We'd never anticipated people not understanding the principle Harry The Spider has stated, I mean that's self evident right? We stated the hardness of rides (well as much as possible), distance, amount of climbing and so on, and assumed anyone in possession of a mtb with access to the internet and enough guile to find our web forum would never misunderstand what this game is all about. But by pure fluke, some of us met 2 newbies in the pub before they'd ever ridden with us, and they asked what the rides were all about, and genuinely hadn't a clue. Let's say they were glad to find out.
We went so far as dissuading newbies for a time, daft as it now seems. We hated where this was taking us. Elitism stinks.
Ultimately we held the sfb "we'll never get anywhere if we listen to lawyers" line, and we try to apply a "what would a reasonable person do here" guiding principle. We started running easier shorter but still technical rides as well as big rides each month. Acceptable to push, pub stops included etc., good way to spot people before they go on bigger rides and get themselves in trouble. If they think it easy, ride the bigger ride. If that's too easy, we're too soft. If we have a serious incident, we tend to debate what we'd do differently. We restrict numbers.
I'm not in any way saying this is failsafe, or we're right with what we've learned and applied - we just like riding our bikes. But this forum is for a laugh, sharing the odd experience etc, and this is our experience. Possibly see a similar thing unfolding here, only it's on a bigger more high profile scale. Perhaps it's a debate that is needed to be confronted and understood if the intention is to hold rides for 30+ riders who are unknown to each other in more remote areas?
Certainly no pop at individuals whatsoever - lowey, to repeat, truly sorry if you see it that way.
Posted 2 years ago # -
On the last sunday of this month a few like minded individuals will be meeting up in malham. We will be riding a 25 mile course, the terrain will be about a 5.0 on the radness scale. If you want to tag along you can but don't expect us to talk to you, look at you, assist you with mechanicals or pick you up if you fall off and break yourself. Oh yeah and don't expect us not to molest you. So bring your own first aid kit, survival gear, 3lbs of kendal mint cake, a whole spare bike, a good book (cos we won't be chatting at the top of the hill) and rape alarm. Of course 1 or 2 individuals may offer conversation, friendly assistance and may not molest you but that is entirly their own doing and I and anyone else who knows the meeting time, place and route cannot be held responsible for that individuals rash acts.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Whether we like it or not, snowslave has a point. There is a risk of being held responsible for a group ride gone wrong if you look like you've organised it. Whether there should be, whether our sport dies a little every time someone thinks about it etc etc is not really the issue.
Once you accept that the risk is there you can do three things:
1 - you can ignore it. The risk of you actually being taken to the cleaners if you have no assets or insurance is pretty small, but as has been pointed out, if someone tries it on it could spoil your life.
2 - desist from organising rides. Thhis is, realisitcally, disproportionnate to the risks involved, but is the least hassle/lowest risk option.
3 - mitigate the risk. Presumably by getting your leader's and first aid qualifications, packing for every contingency, getting disclaimers done and above all getting insurance from CTC or whereever to cover thrid party claims etc etc.
If the ride is definitely going to happen, whether you go for option 1 or option 3 depends on your assessment of the risk landing on you. We asked yesterday whether anyone could flag up a concrete example of this happening, or point us to something other than a flakey argument based on general principles of the tort of negligence. No-one has so far, but that doesn't mean it isn't out there. Personally, I'd go with ignoring the risk, being sensible and trusting to the common sense and decncy of others. But there is an element of risk there.
Posted 2 years ago # -
One hundred people on a ride in the Chilterns? Isn't that just a bit too many given all the hassle you suggest we get from walkers there??
Posted 2 years ago # -
100 riders may well work like the mass trespasses of the past that got walkers access to the moors.
Posted 2 years ago # -
The Kinder trespass was walkers going past the Duke of Devonshire's gamekeepers onto land designated as private--i.e. somewhere they weren't then allowed to roam. One hundred riders traipsing around bridleways they already have every right to be on isn't quite the same Sandwich. What exactly is this going to open up to us?
Posted 2 years ago # -
I agree snowslave was right to raise the matter for discussion, however when it comes to mitigating risk of being held liable:
Presumably by getting your leader's and first aid qualifications, packing for every contingency, getting disclaimers done and above all getting insurance from CTC or whereever to cover thrid party claims etc etc.
I have a feeling that in taking these measures one is tacitly accepting further liability. I'm so squeamish I don't think I could bear to take a first aid course and could certainly never be bothered collecting signatures. I do have 3rd party cover from the CTC, which can still be had for £12 pa for affiliated clubs.
Posted 2 years ago # -
There is a big difference to an organised ride where someone is a leader and a "I am riding here - anyone who wants to tag along meet here" type arrangement.
IMO there is absolutely no legal liability on the folk organising these rides so long as they don't do anything really really stupid.
Do they have a duty of care? etc etc
Posted 2 years ago # -
There is a group of us who are meeting regularly now and we have done a few group rides. I would not be tempeted to issue a disclaimer beforehand, but I would let them know what they are in for. If it looks professional you may be treated as such, if it looks like a bunch of mates then thats the expectation you give and as such its the likely way you will be treated.
I used to be an expedition leader for a group of marine conservationists and learned that you have to be very up front and clear so everyone knows whats involved. Dont compromise the groups aim for the sake of one or two people. Get rid of the one or two who turn up with the wrong kit or wrong attitude and then the majority will be happy. Make sure you dont end up with riders dependent on others for anything, like spares, food, directions, tubes, etc. Then your in a whole world of pain and compromise.
But you will also find that a regular group develops its own culture thereby it becomes only attractive to those who would fit in. Sure, there may be a one off where some total newbie turns up, but they wont come again if they dont fit in.
I would suggest that if they look like they wont fit it, dont try to accommodate them - you will push them to something they are not comfortable with and at the same time spoil the whole groups dynamic culture.
If your organisiing a ride you can avoid most of the problems:
- Discuss the route and difficulty beforehand online
- Ensure you only talk to riders you know
- New riders come via invitation by existing members, this cuts out those who are not likely to fit in.
- Be very clear about kit, bike, skills, distance, attitude, etc
- Make sure those who plan stuff have experience and leadership ability
- If your unsure of the group then plan a series of loops so there are bail out options.
- Set the tone and style stright away otherwise you will lower your ride to the lowest common denominator. Lift the group not lower the group.When you get to a group your happy with STOP. Dont keep on inviting more. Life is too short to allow some **** to spoil it.
Posted 2 years ago # -
fail to plan = plan to fail
If you pay for leadership then you can expect the reassurance of insurance, skill evaluation all backed up by foward planning, ie planned routes and details left with a non rider of route and start finish times.
Groups lead and backed up with guys with two way radios and fully charged mobiles and first aid knowledge.
Manageable group sizes too, everyones details, etc.
If you're not paying it's down to yourself to find out as much about the terrain, distance, etc as you can before hand.
I was going to continue, but CBA.
Mountain biking can be and for the most part IS an extreme and dangerous sport/hobby/life style, respect that, know your limits and ride within them.
If like me you choose to push the limits expect it to hurt sometimes and blame only yourself.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I would suggest that if they look like they wont fit it, dont try to accommodate them - you will push them to something they are not comfortable with and at the same time spoil the whole groups dynamic culture.
If your organisiing a ride you can avoid most of the problems:
- Discuss the route and difficulty beforehand online
- Ensure you only talk to riders you know
- New riders come via invitation by existing members, this cuts out those who are not likely to fit in.This just sounds really snobbish and cliquey to me.
Posted 2 years ago # -
This just sounds really snobbish and cliquey to me
I don't think that's a fair comment in this particular case (disclaimer: I ride with Trimix every week). In practice, it means that
1. We use a mailing list to advertise and plan rides. Occasionally we've posted on here and new people have been added on or we've added friends and acquaintances. This means that everyone knows exactly what to expect and we avoid the kinds of problems that come up when someone arrives with very different expectations of the ride.
2. We organize different kinds of ride to accommodate different people--faster and smaller on Tuesday evening but larger social rides with partners, pubs and picnics on the weekend.
3. We can (hopefully) do stuff that keeps everyone happy--that lets people join in but doesn't, like Trimix says, disrupt the really good regular riding we've got going.
Snobbish and cliquey? Not at all...
Posted 2 years ago # -
I would suggest that if they look like they wont fit it, dont try to accommodate them
Well that sounds a bit like 'if they don't have the correct riding clothes or are riding a Carrera then we won't let them ride with us'.
I'm all for being very clear and upfront about the route/difficulty etc
Sure, there may be a one off where some total newbie turns up, but they wont come again if they dont fit in.
What if the total newbie finds it a bit difficult, but really enjoys the challenge and wants to come again? Tell them they don't fit in and can't come? I do appreciate what you are saying to an extent but it doesn't exactly make it sound like a friendly, welcoming group.
As said by someone else, if you are that bothered about being really fast and not stopping on a route, then why ride in a big group?
Posted 2 years ago # -
What if the total newbie finds it a bit difficult, but really enjoys the challenge and wants to come again? Tell them they don't fit in and can't come? I do appreciate what you are saying to an extent but it doesn't exactly make it sound like a friendly, welcoming group.
Of course not. In part you adapt the pace or intensity to take account of who's there; in part you make it very clear what each ride's going to be like--and be sure to have some proper variety in what you do.
And let's be clear here--I said 'faster' rather than 'fast'; we stop at the end of every section to chew the fat and let Trimix push his lungs back in. The quick guys that ride with us normally end up doing extra miles before or after to get their fix.
If it's not friendly and welcoming then it's difficult to explain why we had fourteen people out in the Chilterns the other Sunday.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I thought we all had a duty, when a stranger turns up on an expensive bike and full of talk about how great a rider he is, to take him down some tight technical stuff and tyre-buzz him so he goes just that leeeetle bit faster than he really wants to.
Posted 2 years ago # -
This just sounds really snobbish and cliquey to me.
to me too! I do my best to accommodate all comers, particularly on beginner rides and don't demand anything beyond enthusiasm and good will. Trimix perhaps inadvertently managed to sound elitist
Posted 2 years ago # -
As far as I'm concerned, and I'm fairly sure the law would agree, if you don't pay for a "leader" to take you around and it is simply a meeting of people with similar interests, each takes individual responsibility and accepts their destiny from that choice. Maybe if <18s are going you might need to be sure that their parents are happy with the arrangement, but the rest are grown adults capable of making their own decisions and dealing with the outcome. We don't all blame the guy who invited us to the pub when we end up breaking a leg on the way home after 10 pints, by the very action of MTBing you're accepting the risks, only you now have an even bigger backup of experience and safety than if you'd done it alone or with a couple of mates. I've been on more than one ride with relatively unknown people where I'd felt like keeling over half way round due to the distances and fitness involved. I prepared for that, packed a map and found my own way home.
I don't know, the fact that we even have to consider such things cheeses me off.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I don't know, the fact that we even have to consider such things cheeses me off.
I don't think we really do though, it's just paranoia in the main I think.
I do think 'no win no fee' has a lot to answer for though.
Posted 2 years ago # -
grumm - at the risk of turning this into a cliquey thread and being the third person in this particular group to contribute - I'm not sure that I'd read 'fit in' in the way that you are. It's not to do with the correct riding clothes (whatever they would be?) or the type of bike you ride, it's about being upfront about the route/difficulty etc, and each person knowing their own ability and fitness. Plus we do different types of routes, so people can choose what they ride, there's always bailout options etc.
I wouldn't use Trimix's terminolgy of 'members' either - it makes it sound more formal than it is. Like Mattie_h says, it's a loose email mailing list - some people ride occassionally, other folks most weeks.
I'm not a total newbie, and sometimes i find it a bit difficult and a challenge, but still want to go out again. So far Trimix and Mattie_h haven't told me not to come back.
Oh, and I'm definitely not bothered about being really fast and not stopping on a route - this group works fine for me on that score!Posted 2 years ago # -
I can't be arsed reading through all this, but I can imagine all the legal crap and nanny state-type bollards being spouted all too well. But in the end it's simple, take responsibility for yourself. If you think a ride's too hard for you, ask properly or simply don't do it. As for the Howgills being a deadly backcountry wilderness. Erm...
Posted 2 years ago # -
The simple solution is to not meet random people from the internet in the woods.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I have a feeling that in taking these measures one is tacitly accepting further liability.
I'd urge everyone who rides to do a basic first aid course. There's a lot of misunderstanding of what "first aid" actually is. It's not all about splinting people's legs or giving them tracheotomies with biros, more assessing the situation and not making anyone's injuries worse than they are.
If you are too squeamish to do a first aid course then you should should probably lock yourself away from society, the worst thing you'll see all day is some cheesy plastic stick-on wounds. Plus you might get paired up with a lady for the CPR bit.
Stuff like head counts to make sure riders haven't been left behind is common sense too, it's far more likely to prevent a bad experience for someone than it is to assist them in suing you.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I've just remembered that I once rode in the Howgills on my own, in winter - and I got slightly lost. Can someone please give me the details of who I should be suing?
We don't really have 'back country' in England anyway - Scotland you could say that about some areas maybe.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I don't know what the problem is.
I went for a ride in the lakes on Sunday (Howgills area) and would you believe it 33 other mountainbikers also turned up with a view to ride the same route.
what are the odds on that eh?
Posted 2 years ago # -
then you should should probably lock yourself away from society
yeah, they'd probably all be happier with that too :o)
Stuff like head counts to make sure riders haven't been left behind is common sense too
in my extensive experience, once you get past 15 head counts are almost impossible. People won't hold still. I often find there were one or 2 more riders then I ever counted during the ride
Posted 2 years ago # -
If you want a group ride to work then you need a certain level of ruthlessness to weed out the bits that will cause it to go wrong.
Also you need to be flexible - dont stick to a plan if the plan turns out to be crap. Life is dynamic, so make your plan adaptable. It also helps if your riding mates are adaptable.
Dont expect everyone to like the same ride as you. Humour helps.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Best way is to just plan when the pub stop will be and leave it at that. As snowslave found out on Saturday, this method is a proven winner
Posted 2 years ago # -
That was indeed a genius plan Dave Routemeister, providing an extra focus to a utterly top day out, and much appreciated!
Posted 2 years ago # -
Just to clarify - I am NOT anticipating 100 riders turning up for the Chilterns ride
Posted 2 years ago #
Topic Closed
This topic has been closed to new replies.
