Joolsburger - not significantly if at all is the answer.
It really depends on what you are wanting to achieve. Better air quality in towns - good for that. Reduced greenhouse gas emmisions in total - not so good.
If you are wanting a "green car" and no such thing actually exists then a small light car with a long life and an economical engine is as good a bet as any - imo
What annoyed me about the scrappage scheme was the complete lack of measurement. Why didn't they insist the new car must be at least, say 15mpg better than your old car?
You are making the mistake though of assuming the scrappage scheme has anything to do with the environment - is all about economic stimulus, and see comment above from molgrips!
Joolsburger, I think you sum it up pretty well.
Here and now in 2010, small light economical cars are the best bet for emissions (thats why I drive an Audi A2).
However as a country we WILL have lots of wind power over the next decade, and using the battery storage of electric cars will be part of that energy solution. My own thought is that even if in the short term the electricity comes from coal or gas then thats the price that has to be paid to generate the market for electric cars.
Small cars are best - of course, some folk need something larger when they have kids and whatnot.
fully loaded and flat out you would be better of in a decent diesel
Not really. Like I say I get 60mpg in the summer time at the speed limit, goes down to 52-54 on an 80mph run down the M4. At the time I bought the car there was nothing in diesel that could compete with that, for a similar size. Now a bluemotion Passat can beat it in terms of mpg but produce more CO2. Then again the new Prius is better still.
Molgrips - no matter how you try to justify it to yourself you know you are wrong. The prius simply is not a green option. It is designed for places where you get tax breaks for zero tailpipe emissions. Its lifetime environmental footprint is poor.
You may want a largeish luxury car. You do not need one. A fiat panda would do all; the practical tasks just as well.
addtionally as district/micro generation picks up then transmission gris losses will be reduced
Sadly not quite as simple as that. It may make them go up or down depending on the generation penetration in different areas. We are already exporting distributed generation (11kV or LV connected stuff) on to the supergrid (National Grid to you) and transporting the power off to other areas - in the company for which I work as the design manager, so that's first hand experience. Why not use it locally? Because it is a generation rich area, not load rich. And that sadly leads to more "grid" losses. Other places it does save losses.
The prius simply is not a green option. It is designed for places where you get tax breaks for zero tailpipe emissions.
I don't believe so. Wanna show me the unbiased scientific studies so I can change my mind?
PS they are still selling fast in the US and there are no longer any tax breaks. They are selling based on high fuel economy.
As for needing a big car, well we don't need a car at all do we if you're going to split hairs. You also don't need a computer to come on STW, how green is that? Your house doens't need heating either for that matter. You could live off-grid with super insulation and solar powered LED lighting. But you don't, do you? Why not?
When I bought that car the Prius was the greenest car that I could fit me, my wife and my biking stuff in. According to the Green Car Congress website and some other stuff I'd read (which included ashes to ashes energy costs).
Also, check this out. The factory that makes Priuses gets half its electricity from solar power.
PS they are still selling fast in the US and there are no longer any tax breaks. They are selling based on high fuel economy.
The thing is, whilst the economy on runs might be very good, it's not really all that special - I can get 50mpg at 80 with something rather bigger than yours (and 10 years old). Why would you expect otherwise given all the clever electric stuff is just so much dead weight on such a run, and the only reason for the slightly better figures is very careful tweaking of aero, engine performance etc.
Aracer - so what? Prius CO2 emissions are lower than any other car, including your ten year old one. So when I was shopping for a new car in 2006 what should I have bought? Should I have bought a diesel that emitted a third more CO2, had loads of NOx, and got less to the gallon?
Please bear in mind that a 50mpg diesel emits more CO2 than a 50mpg petrol.
I'm keen to know - what would you rather I have got? If I were buying now I'd seriously have considered a bluemotion Golf, but they still have higher emissions than a new Prius. So please tell me what I should be driving.
A Prius obviously - just pointing out they're not the "solution" some people seem to suggest (I appreciate that's probably not you - we probably agree more than disagree).
Maverickboy speaks the truth:
The answer also lies with not changing our cars every 3 years (or however long) with them being designed for a 10 year shelf life. It is far less environmentally damaging to keep a 10 year old car running that perhaps does 30mpg than it is to go out and buy a new equivalent that does 45mpg! Mainly because the amount of energy required to make a car in the first place is estimated to equal the equivalent amount of fuel a car will burn in an average 7 years on the road milage!
I've often thought of replacing my 16 year old Isuzu 4wd with something newer - but why? It's still pretty reliable, costs pennies to service & repair and it's FAR kinder to the planet to keep the thing going a few more years than seal the fate of more CO2 emissions buy buying a new or newer car.
People sometimes ask me what car they should get. My answer is "The one you've already got".
I think you will find that a diesel emits less CO2 than a gasoline one. I am also quite sure that the company car tax is higher for diesels to account for this.
molgrips - you mis the point entirely.
You have a car plus a battery. Your improved fuel economy does not cover the poluting cost of the battery and there are many cars with better lifetime polution than a prius bwecause of this. any small supermini for example.
there are no good figures becauswe toyota will not release them. its all about the production and disposal of the battery - that cause more polutiopn than is saved by the hybrid tech.
just stop fooling yourself - the prius is a greenwash.
As a genuine question does anyone have any info on the carbon footprint of Lithium ion batteries, and also info on recycling of them?
Its the recycling thing that intrigues me, as I suspect that (like aluminium and titanium) the engergy to reprocess and OLD cell into a new cell might be much lower than to make one fresh from stuff dug up from the groumd.
just pointing out they're not the "solution" some people seem to suggest
Absolutely. Only thick people think that though. Prius and other eco models are only a very small step. Given the choice I'd rather work from home and not drive anywhere apart from on holiday.
TJ - tell me about the environmental impact of making batteries please. I mean with evidence..? How much worse is a Prius than a normal car in construction? Some figures would be nice.
Here are some studies that support the idea that hybrids are overall eco friendlier than conventional powertrains. However I will accept that they are American studies and therefore compare hybrids with normal petrol rather than diesel cars. However, that is a fair point since hybrids make far more of an impact in the States where smog related restrictions on NOx emissions are very stringent and prevent most diesels being sold.
Absolutely. Only thick people think that though.
...Prius and other eco models are only a very small step...
Exactly!
'We' are not going to magically move from hydrocarbon-guzzling raw material-hogging machines to super clean transport in one jump.
OK the Prius may not be the solution but it's certainly an improvement not least because it takes 'environmentally friendly transport' from the domain of the tofu wearing green freaks into the public consciousness.
Green or dirty, our economy is always going to be consumer led - anything that raises awareness/enthusiasm will make each subsequent step easier...
Lots of thick people drive Priu.
Lots of thick people drive cars mate, not just Priuses.
Another point about all these cars that are somewhat greener is that they need to sell in order to encourage the markets. Don't forget the normal everyday diesels people are talking about 20 years ago were weirdo eco cars. Only because some people bought them were the manufacturers able to develop them and now they are a major contribution to reduced fuel usage; we're on here talking about 50mpg instead of 35mpg.
One of the reasons I bought a 104g/km Prius was to support the technology. Overall it was a success and now there's an 89g/km Prius available, which is still selling well. Toyota are now working on a range of hybrids including a small Yaris sized one, which will be interesting.
OK the Prius may not be the solution but it's certainly an improvement not least because it takes 'environmentally friendly transport' from the domain of the tofu wearing green freaks into the public consciousness
This is the key IMO. Cars like the Prius (right or wrong) are seen as an alternative and do make people think. Lentil-wearing, sandal-eating greenie-crusties going on about coasting/etc are too easy to sideline and ignore. Even if the execution of the Prius isn't right (eg it's not actually greener) it's a general step in the right direction of acceptance of non-hydrocarbon (only) cars.
hilldodger, molgrips and clubber have summed it up perfectly for me in the above three posts. It's about accepting that we have a transport tech transition to go through. Some people will want to be early adopters, others will wait until there is no other choice. Me, I like to be ahead of the curve so will be keen to get a rechargable electric (or hybrid) when they are available.
Good points, reminds me of a show I heard regarding energy saving light bulbs the other day. So many manufacturers desperately trying to make them look and operate like existing filament bulbs. So much inertia in the consumer market. They could be made any way they like, to be more effective etc. but they're constrained by the willingness of the consumer to accept change. "I have to wait two seconds for my bleedin' bulb to turn on!"
"Why can't an electric car be exactly the same as a petrol one but run off of leccy?"
Amazing how little change people are willing to accept.
Amazing how little change people are willing to accept.
It All sounds like “Blue sky” Bullshit now to me if I’m honest…
We are told all the answers are coming, Low carbon modern living is always, it seems, just around the corner…
The only real workable “here and now” answer to reducing CO2 is to actually use less energy full stop….
All the talk of incremental technological advances to effectively try and let us live the same lifestyles we do today with a bit of offset guilt are pointless.
Whatever the Car of the future may or may not be most people are still driving the Car of today, and pretty inefficiently too, I’m a prime offender this morning I drove 20 miles in a petrol powered vehicle weighing about 2 tons on my own, to an office where I have currently got no work to do, and later I’m going to drive 20miles home, that if I’m honest should be a crime, I’m sure I’m not the only one wasting resources so needlessly…
The fact of the matter is that just about everything we do these days produces more CO2 than it should do; I eat Imported food, I drive an imported car made of materials themselves mined, refined and exported to the manufacturer, I burn Imported Gas to keep me and My family warm in our under-insulated Home, and I waste Energy using a computer for fruitless activities like posting on various forum’ and looking at shit I don’t really need to purchase on the internet…
I’m not going to make excuses I’ve fallen into Bad, wasteful habits and I know I’m not the only one. The only real way to pollute less is to literally Do less, be more efficient in your day to day energy use, Car pooling is a start, Cycling and Walking more will help, Growing some of your own food, Insulating the Loft and wall cavities in your home, low energy Bulbs, watch less TV and have a conversation instead. We all know 100 ways to reduce our “Carbon Footprint” yet instead people get all excited over little wisps of information on the “Car of the Future” which, when it gets here, will probably only save a Net ~5% in total Energy use over the car of today, a saving you could probably make right now by leaving your current motor on the drive once a week and cycling…
Buying another overpriced Tin box that claims to run on carrot juice is all well and good, but I think in all honesty the real answer is to scale back energy consumption thus requiring us to burn less fuel…
or actually seriously inconvenient (which is I suspect how most people would feel about having to stop overnight to recharge half way up to Scotland).
Although this is a step removed from the very small inconveniences I was relating to but it's along the same lines. I may be in a minority but i regard it as a pretty incredible privilege to be able to jump in a car and expect to be able to go wherever the hell we want non-stop. Anyway, a journey the length of the country is a pretty extreme example of car use. Most people I know could use an electric car without even realising considering their average journey length.
As has been pointed out ad infinitum, it all depends on what lengths we're willing to go to lower energy wastage/use. These lengths vary wildly and I would suppose that not many people would take the sacrifices necessary to mitigate fossil fuel usage to the levels claimed. (I would include myself in this number just in case you had yourself poised to jump down my throat).
As has been pointed out ad infinitum, it all depends on what lengths we're willing to go to lower energy wastage/use. These lengths vary wildly and I would suppose that not many people would take the sacrifices necessary to mitigate fossil fuel usage to the levels claimed. (I would include myself in this number just in case you had yourself poised to jump down my throat).
If that’s the general consensus then as a species we’re probably ****…
A society too lazy to make what are effectively pretty simple changes to what has become over the last 50 odd years probably the most Decadent and wasteful way of living in Human history, probably deserves to be wiped out…
cookeaa,
Although in my darker musings I might be persuaded to agree, I generally think that we can adapt as a species but not through any inherent right or even ability. We'll change our behaviour when environmental pressures dictate that we have no choice. I cynically think that political pressure is never going to be sufficient. Man has always tended to live to the limit of capable means. When these means are reduced, mankind will follow.
Sorry for dragging this a little ot 
Yes cookeaa, I think you are a little fatalistic there.
Of course there is a chance you are right, but if you proceed on the "we're doooomed! and everythings futile" train of thought then you start acting like a grumpy EMO.
One idea with electric cars in the future is quickly swapped batteries - you drop into a service station and swap them quicker than it takes to fill with petrol. In that model you don't actually own the battery itself - bit like Calor Gas bottles. Obviously the car itself needs to be designed to suit, but a good lateral idea all the same.
Cookeaa.. you are right, that brings us back to the problems of conventional economic growth. Economies have been based for decades on the idea that we make more things and make more money - the only problem with that is that it requires more and more resources and energy. The thing is now that we are beginning to depend on things that needs lots of energy ie the company I am now working at depends on people for thsi project who are having to drive 1-2 hours each from different places. To start substantially reducing our production we would either need a depression that'd make the great depression look like tiddlywinks, or a radical rethink which I think is currently beyond us as a society. Although I do believe we'll get there at some point.
The point you make about leaving the car in the drive one day a week instead of getting a more efficient car is nonsense tho. You should leave it in the drive one day a week AND get a more efficient car. People tend to think that if they make a saving, then that's ok - but you need to make ALL the savings you can, even if it means cycling to work every day and only using your fuel efficient car at weekends.
Personally I'd telecommute at the drop of a hat, if I could.
Most people I know could use an electric car without even realising considering their average journey length.
The thing is with all this "we need to change our behaviour" stuff is that even if we all drove electric cars (including all the new car buyers in China) AND they were as environmentally wonderful as some people seem to think, it would still only make a tiny difference. Not really that useful an area to concentrate resources on.
Perhaps I'm being fatalistic, But I really Can't see how peoples energy use will change anytime soon, entrenched expectations ...
You're Right Molgrips we do have an economy geared towards consumption, Growth driven by unsustainable consumption is what primarily drives our Economy at the moment, if all the talk of a "Low Carbon Economy" is to come to anything then I think Businesses that manage to offer goods and services which actually do the opposite; actually capitalize on opportunities to reduce consumption, need to be encouraged, some true innovation is required, not just repackaging the consumer world we already live in with the strap line "Low Emissions" thrown in for good measure.
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