Have we not done this yet?

I’m no fanboi but I’m right behind Apple on this, for many reasons not least of which the fact that this isn’t gonna bring back the 14 victims.

I’m also curious to learn that the FBI can’t simply clone the phone “as-is” and then just brute force crack by restoring from the clone…or is that too simplistic?

From what I’ve heard from some people properly looking at protecting their data it’s not that secure, so I guess they would like to short cut the brute force. The implications being that if apple unlock it there is proof they can do it to any bodies phone and if they tell the fbi there is a chance the key gets out.

As for why they should help if it uncovers any others then it could prevent more attacks.

As for why they should help if it uncovers any others then it could prevent more attacks.

No it won’t. The bad guys will just move onto another method of communication and in the meantime Apple has just shot itself in the foot by massively devaluing it’s own products.
The only thing this may achieve for the FBI would be the possibility of a successful prosecution of any accomplices (who have probably fled the country already).

I love the give up its too hard attitude to policing…

Apple refsed to unlock Pistorious’s phone after a request from the South African authorities. Pistorious clImed he’d forgotten his pin number, the authorities believed the phone had key message data which would shed light on the staTe of his relationship with Steencamp. Google have now waded into the debate also, interesting they are very happy to scan all your messages to selll advertising but not give. It up to investigate or prevent crime

All companies should be obliged to give up data/messages at the request of the state/law enforcement, its just the same as a search warrant of your house

If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to worry about. At the end of the day it is the modern equivalent of intercepting your post.

All companies should be obliged to give up data/messages at the request of the state/law enforcement, its just the same as a search warrant of your house

Surprise surprise, one of STW resident right wingers doesn’t think anyone anyone should have the right to secure communications. Governments, the police and security services have lost the right to this kind of access by the previous actions. You can’t get in? Tough luck, find evidence somewhere else.

It’s not quite analogous to a search warrant. As they already effectively have the permission to get into the owners phone – they just can’t defeat the third parties security.

There must be a hacker that can do it?

I guess this is a precedent issue for Apple.

But if you prove that there is a tool that can help you crack it – as I read they want the 10 goes and it scrambles disabled from the pass code then you just told the world your security is easy to bypass, you hold the key and if anyone copies it all your data can be unlocked such as the pics of you and the famous actress and tiger Woods little black book. Nothing illegal but stuff you don’t want shared with the world.

If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to worry about. At the end of the day it is the modern equivalent of intercepting your post.

How quaint…

My company requires me to have access to very commercially sensitive, business critical material. I have to travel to some less than salubrious places where corruption is rife. Colleagues have had their phones stolen and data compromised. We know the data has fallen into a foreign competitors hands as we lost a large contract (several hundred people lost their jobs because we lost that contract). That foreign country has a (unproven, granted) reputation for state sponsored hacking.

Since moving to encrypted phones, we haven’t had a data breach though that hasn’t stopped phones mysteriously disappearing from hotel rooms…

I do not know how apples security work but in general there is no back door or way of unencrypting it is not the way these algorithms work. Adding a backdoor would be a fundamental security flaw.

Brute force attacks are not possible either if correct algorithms have been used.

On another note I find it odd the contradiction in right wind politics that want less government involment in life but yet want to fully be able to survey any aspect of the populations life.

^^^That’s a load of bollocks to illustrate a point, actually. My current job isn’t that bad but I’ve certainly worked some contacts were client data security is absolutely paramount…

Edit: Just to clarify, it is my post I’m calling bollocks not the Bricks…

Well, the phones are totally secure, but Obama still isn’t allowed one for security reasons.

Makes you think eh? 😉

Well, the phones are totally secure, but Obama still isn’t allowed one for security reasons

It is possible to add layers and software to make the security acceptable but out the box it’s not passing all the audits (from what I hear)

If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to worry about.

So we’ll install a video camera in your bedroom, OK?

Every dissident in China, or N Korea, or Saudi, or wherever has lots to hide and if a way into their phones gets out then they are in trouble.

Apple has five days to either appeal the order or show that it can’t be done. The FBI believes that it can be done and in a few days time we’ll all find out what the commercial implications are likely to be for Apple and every other manufacturer

The Court Order is very specific to that particular phone only, and in the circumstances I think that it’s appropriate because the request isn’t for a single key that unlocks every iPhone
If we assume that it’s technically possible then someone will develop an unofficial way to unlock every phone in time, if they haven’t already, but for the moment the only official way is likely to be for one phone

The state should have limitless powers of repression but no power to actually improve peoples’ lives.

If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to worry about

This is very naive.

Whatever data you have can be interpreted in any way ‘they’ feel is reasonable. This may or may not seem reasonable to you 😯

All companies should be obliged to give up data/messages at the request of the state/law enforcement, its just the same as a search warrant of your house

Apple don’t have the data. All data sent between two devices is encrypted, and then decrypted at the receiving end. You have to gain access to the device to access it. If Apple were to build an alternative iOS that allows access to this data then it would ‘exist’ and likely leak into the wild. Then the operating system they’ve spend years, and countless millions on developing would be worthless.

Watching something on the TV last night a lawyer was saying that to breach the 10 goes before phone bricks itself code, Apple would have to write new code, code has apparently been ruled speech in the US courts so Apple being forced to write code would be a major violation of the US Constitution.

Yes it IS analogous to a search warrant of your house. The police can apply to the courts to search your home and they should be able to do exactly the same for the contents of your phone and emails, encypted or not. If the tech companies don’t agree to allow this access the US and other countries will pass laws to require it.

I have to laugh at the “libertarians” here who complain about privacy, Google, Facebook etc scan every single message and everything you do online in order to sell that information to advertisers, that seems acceptable but not the police having info about terrorists, murderers or peodophiles ? These tech companies are getting into voice as they will be scanning your phone conversations with voice recognition software just the same way they scan every email or text message

This is all about the FBI wanting to look at one phone belonging to one person that killed 14 people. They want to see if there is any other information they can use to stop further attacks or convict others involved in helping this deluded nutter.
The FBI aren’t asking to get into every widget manufacturers employees iPhone so they can make a superior Yankee widget with your top secret technology.

All companies should be obliged to give up data/messages at the request of the state/law enforcement, its just the same as a search warrant of your house

Indeed. Just like they had a search warrant for your house, and you’d hidden something that they didn’t know they wanted somewhere they wouldn’t find it.

Apple has five days to either appeal the order or show that it can’t be done. The FBI believes that it can be done and in a few days time we’ll all find out what the commercial implications are likely to be for Apple and every other manufacturer

I’d sooner they rolled the tech back and sold us a simpler phone that cannot be backdoored (oo-er), or allow them to remotely store data on the customer (I read that this is what they do I think?), or have a locator.

Yes it IS analogous to a search warrant of your house.

That’s right. Keep repeating it. It’ll sound true eventually.

. They want to see if there is any other information they can use to stop further attacks or convict others involved in helping this deluded nutter.
The FBI aren’t asking to get into every widget manufacturers employees iPhone so they can make a superior Yankee widget with your top secret technology

Proof that the phone is crackable basically means it’s open season. On one hand the FBI should be able to view it, the other says that once you open the box it’s one. What if a Chinese court issued a warrant to apple in China? I can see why apple are so keen to defend this but also not why if they were contacted privately didn’t do something.

The Register breaks it down quite well http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/17/apple_iphone_5c/

The request is very specific tied to a single phone the firmware update would be tied to it via serial number and the FBI wouldn’t be able to reuse as they can’t cryptographically sign the firmware.

Personally Apple stand feels more like it’s a marketing moment. They could have quietly tried and failed deliberately or not and the public would be non the wiser.

but also not why if they were contacted privately didn’t do something.

Presumably they rightly fear that the key or method would eventually be leaked?

The request is very specific tied to a single phone the firmware update would be tied to it via serial number and the FBI wouldn’t be able to reuse as they can’t cryptographically sign the firmware.

No, but they could exert significant staff and computer time to crack the crack, and remove the serial number lock. This simply isn’t possible on the iPhone itself due to the aforementioned precautions such as delays after entering the wrong pin or scrambling the data if you fail too many times. Put it in a file where a real computer can access it and it will be broken.

Yes it IS analogous to a search warrant of your house

“We can’t open your doors or safe so we’ll require the lock manufacturers to make us some special keys that open every lock and safe in the world.”

That doesn’t seem a sensible approach.

The State needs to find another way (to be honest I’m very surprised the NSA can’t do this for them).

to be honest I’m very surprised the NSA can’t do this for them

It’s conceivable that they have, but the FBI see this as an opportunity to make life easier in the future…

From the Guradian today, Apple used to respond to law enforcemnet requests for access (note this was the subject of a visit by Cameron to the US as Apple, WhatsApp, Facebook etc refused to respond to UK requests but only to US requests). In 2014 they changed the encryption.

Apple introduced enhanced encryption in 2014
The technology giant’s actions in this case require some context. In September 2014, Apple introduced new encryption into its iPhone operating system that would make it mathematically impossible for the company to unlock them for investigators. This was a departure from the past, when investigators could get access to a device if they sent it to Apple headquarters with a search warrant.

Apple is on very dangerous and weak ground here, trying to defy a court investigating terrorists who carried out mass killings in California

Also, the judge has said the custom firmware can remain on Apple property, so it is entirely possible for Apple to keep this weakened software out of g-men’s hands

From the Reg article zokes the FBI don’t even get their hands on the crack necessarily just the phone data

This was a departure from the past, when investigators could get access to a device if they sent it to Apple headquarters with a search warrant when security was much weaker.

FIFY

The State needs to find another way (to be honest I’m very surprised the NSA can’t do this for them).

No they can’t modern encryption (mix of hardware and software) means it’s impossible to break in practical terms.

From the Reg article zokes the FBI don’t even get their hands on the crack necessarily just the phone data

Hmmmm. It’s still a case of once it’s invented, you can’t un-invent it. And once it has been invented, what’s to stop the FBI gaining another court order to hand it over.

From the Reg article zokes the FBI don’t even get their hands on the crack necessarily just the phone data

Just the proof it can be done will be enough to damage reputation. I can see both sides but in the end would come down with the FBI, if you think you own your data your wrong, it’s not secure and can be broken.

Apple is on very dangerous and weak ground here, trying to defy a court investigating terrorists who carried out mass killings in California

This kind of stuff invokes an emotional response in me to go easy on the state getting into my private stuff. That’s really clever, that is.

the FBI see this as an opportunity to make life easier in the future

I doubt if that’s the case. As I understand it the phone in question is a 5C which doesn’t have the secure enclave that makes 5S and above difficult (if not impossible) for even the NSA/Apple to crack, so anything Apple does now for the FBI has a limited shelf life.

An Interesting bit is Apple are allowed to do the work in private, so could give it to a bunch of interns with an “oops” we seem to have fried the phone by mistake result.