Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 46 total)
  • Anyone successfully broken an Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement?
  • RopeyReignRider
    Free Member

    Hi

    We have an Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement that ends in June.

    However, due to a number of reasons (not in small part due to living with neighbours who keep us awake virtually every night, despite the council taking action against them) we need to terminate the agreement early.

    Our contract has no early termination clause so as such if we break it now we would be liable to pay the rent until they find new occupants or the contract ends, whichever is sooner.

    Has anyone successfully managed to break such an agreement and negotiated the remaining rent payments, or has anyone ever had to go through the small claims court etc?

    Ideally, as a compromise I'd give my landlord 2 months notice and let them keep the deposit. However, they are complete fcukers..

    Any ideas?

    thanks

    Stoner
    Free Member

    ASTs can be terminated at 2 months notice anyway regardless of whats on the lease term.

    hang on let me just check that – I may be confusing it with another clause in the 1998 act…

    not my field of practice.

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    get a hold of SteveAustin, he know's his onnions, not to shabby on tannancy law either.

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    geoffj
    Full Member

    Unless your landlord also owns the property where the noise is coming from, I wouldn't expect you to have much luck. The Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement is there to protect you and the landlord from folk changing their minds. If you were one of my tennants though, I'm sure that we'd be able to come to some sort of agreement. Talk to your landlord / factor / agent and explain the situation.

    HoratioHufnagel
    Free Member

    i left early and the landlady said i'd have to pay the rent until she found a replacement tennant, which was only 2 weeks after i moved out.

    If the landlord did take you to small claims court, he can only claim the rent lost between when you moved out and when a new tenant moves in.

    if it was me, i'd just give a months notice, and expect him to keep the deposit.

    I was in the other position (landlord kept deposit) and the small claims court is useless, as are the bailiffs if you read up on what they are allowed to do (just don't let them in!).

    Stoner
    Free Member

    yep – ignore me. Talking bollox. Confusing the 2 months notice with the LLs notice requirements prior to terminateing the original term.

    hora
    Free Member

    If the landlord did take you to small claims court, he can only claim the rent lost between when you moved out and when a new tenant moves in.

    But then surely the landlord might not be that bothered about finding someone new until the end of the OP's tenancy?

    RopeyReignRider
    Free Member

    This is the thing, my landlord to be frank, is an @rse.

    I'm quite sure that they wouldn't bother trying to find another tenant in a hurry as they know that we're tied-in legally until June.

    I'm also not sure whether or not to mention the reasons for us needing to leave??

    On one hand they might be sympathetic, on t'other they'll know that they might have issues with future tenants being disturbed and hence be reluctant to attempt to re-let until the last possible minute??!

    midlifecrashes
    Full Member

    But then surely the landlord might not be that bothered about finding someone new until the end of the OP's tenancy?

    A court would find that unreasonable if challenged, with so long to go on the tenancy. It's hard for a landlord to evict in the first six months, you need very specific and severe grounds, and conversely tenants are expected to make a six month commitment at least. I'd say the quickest way out would be to work with your landlord to readvertise and do your best to get it let. So long as you haven't caused any significant damage so far, I'd be happy to work that way.

    RopeyReignRider
    Free Member

    interesting stuff guys – we've been in the property for just over a year if that makes any odds (initial 6 month contract and then a new 12 month one signed last June).

    geoffj
    Full Member

    Why did you sing a new 12 month contract. Why not just go onto a rolling monthly one?

    RopeyReignRider
    Free Member

    Because the choices were a 6 month fixed term or 12 month fixed term contract.

    At the time (last June) Mrs RRR wanted some security and we had a nice, quiet family living next door… so we signed the 12 month one!

    (also, at the time the landlord was threatening to sell the property so we wanted the security of it being sold with us as tentants)

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    You need good professional advice – steve austin is your man on here or go to CAB / law centre.

    a couple of things you say lead me to believe the lease may not be valid ( its easy to mess them up) but I do not know enough to be sure.

    coffeeking
    Free Member

    Is Steve available for hire/on the phone/etc? A friend of mine is having huge problems with having moved out early from a tennancy due to security problems and personal safety, but they are now chasing his guarantor despite being able to speak to my mate directly – he needs a little advice but the CAB aren't being too helpful.

    geoffj
    Full Member

    Because the choices were a 6 month fixed term or 12 month fixed term contract.

    At the time (last June) Mrs RRR wanted some security and we had a nice, quiet family living next door… so we signed the 12 month one!

    (also, at the time the landlord was threatening to sell the property so we wanted the security of it being sold with us as tentants)

    Ahh I see, sounds all well and good then. You night want to check the legality of the agreement then, because agreements made after the initial 6 months is up may not be as legally binding.

    cynic-al
    Free Member

    IMO, because you are negotiating, it's up to the landlords and there's not much good hearing other's stories unless they have tactical advice. If the market is good for landlords then you could just go, leave them with the deposit, remind them fo their duty to find new tenants adn see what happens.

    Stoner – Premier Member

    not my field of practice.

    You a lawyer?

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    i just left and did not give a forwarding address when The same happened to me with neighbours. I apologised to the landlord – as it was not their fault, gave 1 mths + deposit [anothe mth]to say Sorry and left. Heard nothing. They need your address to take you to court.

    vinnyeh
    Full Member

    a couple of things you say lead me to believe the lease may not be valid ( its easy to mess them up) but I do not know enough to be sure.

    What are those couple of things TJ? Or are you just talking bollocks?
    One of the major selling points of AST's is that they are difficult to mess up.

    cynic-al
    Free Member

    Junkyard – Premier Member
    i just left and did not give a forwarding address when The same happened to me with neighbours. I apologised to the landlord – as it was not their fault, gave 1 mths + deposit [anothe mth]to say Sorry and left. Heard nothing. They need your address to take you to court.

    Awaits junkyard's input on "my tenants have left and owe me money" threads

    carlphillips
    Free Member

    just leave without warning and forego the deposit, ive done it quite a few times in my yoof..never had any comebacks..

    midlifecrashes
    Full Member

    Ah, was wondering about the timings. Was thinking you had only been in six weeks or so into a six month AST. I personally can't see the point of ASTs being longer than six months, then automatically rolling over into periodic tenancies. All it seems to do is give letting agents and dodgy landlords an opportunity to add an extra hefty fee(agents usually charge both the landlord and tenant for this) into the system. I wish tenants would stop treating deposits as an alternative to a last month's rent though. Why is walking away from a contract any different to bike theft?

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    Vinny – the 12 month renewal is one and the lack of notice period. My understanding is that neither of these two things can be in a legal AST

    However I am used to Scottish law and its my mrs who is the expert. hence my caution.

    StuMcGroo
    Free Member

    as a landlord if my tenants have a problem with my property i get it sorted, and quick. if they have a problem with a neighbour then that is nothing to do with me and is no reason for me to allow them to leave 5 months before the end of the contract.

    toys19
    Free Member

    I'm a landlord and I know this lot backwards having effed it up a few times in the past to learn my lessons.

    Most of what is said above is correct.

    1) If you are tied in till june then leaving now will make you liable for void and re-advertising costs, but he has to make reasonable steps to re advertise, he cant just sit back until june and think that the rents gonna be paid, judges do not go for this. In fact if he did that he might run the risk of getting nothing.

    2) You say choice was 6 or 12 months – not true, you could have just not signed and then it would be a monthly rolling contract – where he has to give you 2 months notice on an anniversary of the rent day, and you have to give one month whenever you like.

    3) Deposit scheme are you in one? There are numerous things he could have effed up here which might give you some leverage.

    4) Invalid lease? Hmm that's tougher, (ie I don't know much about this bit) there might be all kinds of crap in there that is invalid, but in fact most silly clauses (like no bikes in your bedroom) are unenforceable anyway, really an AST is just a restating of the existing law and your rights, and these things are inalienable.

    My advice is to stop paying your rent and give the guy 1 months notice and tell him to start advertising pronto as you are defo leaving. On the day you move out hand the keys back and hand in a surrender of tenancy form (I can send you one of these) so then its formalised from your side that you are leaving. He then has to take proper steps to re-rent. In the mean time lets discuss the deposit scheme thing hopefully he has messed that up which will be a nice payday for you if he has. Do not tell him where you are moving to.

    midlifecrashes
    Full Member

    Nowt wrong with a renewal, if both parties agree. For the tenant, they get added security as there are fewer possible reasons for eviction, for the landlord, they have a reasonable expectation of rent for the period specified. The concept of a defined term AST defined the end date. The alternative is to allow the original 6 month AST to roll into a periodic tenancy, at which point the landlord would only need to give two month's notice, or the tenant give one month's to end the tenancy. In the instance where a tenant wants to stay on beyond the initial period, and the landlord insists on a fresh agreement, then provided notice is given before the last month of the initial period, the landlord may ask the tenant to go. The other type of agreement which could be used is the contractual periodic, which runs from one month to the next, but during the first six months, tenants have similar protection from eviction to an AST, but without affording the protection of rent to the landlord, so they are rarely used.

    RopeyReignRider, have you made the offer of two months plus deposit to your landlord (not the agent) in writing? Unless your place is looking very hard to let, I'd jump at that. If I could get it turned around and re-let in a fortnight, I'd be looking at ten weeks or more of double rent.

    toys19
    Free Member

    TandemJeremy – Member

    Vinny – the 12 month renewal is one and the lack of notice period. My understanding is that neither of these two things can be in a legal AST

    My understanding of this is that you do not have to state the notice thing, its enshrined in the relevant housing act (I think its part 3 1996).

    Another way of looking at this is that if you move into a house and the landlord gives you no contract then you are automatically on an ast – 6 months 2 months notice from the landlord at 6 months and 1 months notice from you..

    The 12 month renewal thing is a bit out of my experience as I don't do this. He cannot force you to renew that is a fact, maybe if you could prove that he forced you to renew then this might be a get out, do you have any letters from him stating 6/12 months or nothing?

    The CAG forums are brilliant for this there are loads of lawyers on there who give good advice. I learnt a lot there, but I am now a member of a landlords assoc who provide all my legal guidance..

    toys19
    Free Member

    midlifecrashes – Member
    In the instance where a tenant wants to stay on beyond the initial period, and the landlord insists on a fresh agreement, then provided notice is given before the last month of the initial period, the landlord may ask the tenant to go.

    I am 100% confident that the landlord has to give 2 months notice whatever the conditions, so if he wants you to leave at 6 months he has to let you know on or before the end of the 4th month. Correct me please as this would be a nice to know, although its contrary to everything I have ever understood about notice..

    midlifecrashes
    Full Member

    Toys19. No, sorry you are right. If the tenant wants to end toward the back end of the Initial Period, they give one month, if the landlord wishes to end it, they give two months (i.e. at month 4 of a 6m or month 10 of a 1 yr agreement). Usually you know by month 2 whether you want folk to stay, though.

    Edit: These apply only to giving notice, not regaining possession through legal proceedings(S21 notice, usually), where notice period can be much shorter, even immediate under ground 14(nuisance/illegality). Not likely to be relevant to Ropey's case though, but if you look up Section 21 grounds it's all googleable. I've had to do this once, but managed to avoid delays and court costs by paying the tenant to leave after notice was served.

    toys19
    Free Member

    midlifecrashes. Cheers, otherwise I've been doing it wrong all these years..

    ctznsmith
    Free Member

    A lot of landlord/agents give you 2 months notice as a standard practice at the end of your tenancy and then say if you want to stay you need to sign another AST (and charge you a fee) which is I assume what has happened in this case. Is that allowed, or if the same tenant stays on in the same property does if have to move to a month by month?

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    In answer to the OP I have gave 2 months notice and left, landlord threatend legal action, I said OK then, he kept damage deposit and all I ever got was a letter demanding payment then never heard anymore. This was about 15 years ago.

    midlifecrashes
    Full Member

    A lot of landlord/agents give you 2 months notice as a standard practice at the end of your tenancy and then say if you want to stay you need to sign another AST (and charge you a fee) which is I assume what has happened in this case. Is that allowed, or if the same tenant stays on in the same property does if have to move to a month by month?

    It's not only allowed, it's the agent's business model. You can only roll onto a periodic tenancy if the landlord wants you to(and therefore doesn't give notice two months before the end of the initial period). As I said before, once you're into a periodic tenancy the landlord is basically only guaranteed rent for a month ahead, and the tenant runs the risk of having to find somewhere else to live at two month's notice, so there can be an advantage to both sides to sign a fresh deal. The downside is if high fees are being charged, it ups the effective rent, the tenant feels ripped off and leaves sooner than they might ave done otherwise. AST agreements are just about free unless you need a very customised one, so charging £100+ for legal costs are usually unjustified.

    toys19
    Free Member

    I have an ast here I will give anyone for free.

    Helios
    Free Member

    Whoooo there… Hang on a second… What is all this about giving up your deposit? It is illegal for him to hang onto it for anything except damage against the property/fixtures/fittings… It is not there to cover rent foregone if you end the tenancy or stop paying rent…

    you deposit has to be covered by the protection scheme which means you get independent adjudication if you're not happy with him hanging onto any of your deposit…

    toys19
    Free Member

    Helios – Member

    Whoooo there… Hang on a second… What is all this about giving up your deposit? It is illegal for him to hang onto it for anything except damage against the property/fixtures/fittings… It is not there to cover rent foregone if you end the tenancy or stop paying rent…

    you deposit has to be covered by the protection scheme which means you get independent adjudication if you're not happy with him hanging onto any of your deposit…

    I think this is an urban myth I kept some deposit last year through my TDS in lieu of unpaid rent..

    More importantly is the OP's deposit in a TDS if not then he is in gravy I think.
    That's the juicy bit I am waiting to here back about.

    Helios
    Free Member

    Defo not urban myth… Deposits cannot be used to cover unpaid rent unless the tennant requests that this happen…

    Deposit must be held in TDS if tennancy is newer than April 6th 2007…

    toys19
    Free Member

    It just comes down to what is in the contract, if the contract states the deposits is only for damage then its only for damage, but if your contact states that it can be used to cover unpaid rent at the end of the tenancy then you can keep it. I guess that covers your

    Deposits cannot be used to cover unpaid rent unless the tennant requests that this happen…

    as the tenant in signing the contract has agreed that this can happen. I haven't seen an AST recently that does not state this. Have a look at this (cue- loads of laywer types telling me this clause is illegal and unenforceable but it worked fine last year with mydeposits.com)

    Helios
    Free Member

    Hmm… Then I'm ready to conceed defeat… Mine is for damage only… But looks fairly clear that one covers all sorts of other things…

    toys19
    Free Member

    I think that even if my contract didn't say rent as well and a tenant ran off without paying his rent and hadn't damaged my property I would keep the deposit and make them challenge me for it. TDS is not binding if I disagree they have to sue me to get money back. But I dunno what the implications of this are never having had to face it..

    I use the insurance backed scheme for TDS rather than handing the dosh over to a third party, at least I've got it and they have to fight me for it.

    This is why I recommended the OP stop paying rent now, because he will have a poor time trying to get any other money back off the LL.

    RopeyReignRider
    Free Member

    cheers for the advice guys.

    toys19 – the form you mention may be handy, thanks.. I'll PM you.

    Just to clarify a few things – firstly I've not actually submitted my proposal of 2 months notice and keeping deposit, to the landlord in writing. Unfortunately I know of my actual landlord only by the name of the trust to which the rent goes. All my correspondance is through an agency who are actually a friend of the landlord (and a commercial surveryors not a letting agency).

    Secondly, although the landlord / agent would not know where I was moving to, they have my work email address and also know (very roughly) where I work. Furthermore, working in financial services (albeit in IT) I have to be very careful – I couldn't have an irate landlord approaching my boss for contact details etc.

    Thirdly, my deposit is in the Govt deposit protection schemey thing..

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