They then took us to a needless war

Correct me if I am wrong but wasn’t that voted in by people of all.parties and supports by the main ones? Would it then not hve happened the same way with Tories in power?

IIRC more labour MP’s voted against it than Tories and it opnly passed due to conservative support

I don’t consider myself to be Tory by any means

I am not sure why as that reads like the DM editorial

Hmm, reikk v ONS and IFS. Which is best placed to answer the question!

I will be off to bed shortly, but, please, for the sake of all that is good in the world, do not vote conservative tomorrow.

Yes – Ed Miliband isn’t a viable leader

Is that similar to the way rich people pay more VAT? 😉

That is pretty progressive thinking there

Dont get me wrong Blair is a **** of the highest order and the decision shames the labour party but it could not have been passed without Tory support so they share the blame though he was clearly the ring leader

Junkyard just out of interest, why are you such an ardent Labour fanboi?

Junkyard – lazarus

Dont get me wrong Blair is a **** of the highest order

robowns – Member

Junkyard just out of interest, why are you such an ardent Labour fanboi?

Brilliant !

We’re going way OT here, but the question is, what did those supporting the war base their decision to support the war on? It’s difficult to outright condemn people on either side who were lied to.

The tories did not require the dossier [ any more than Blair did] IMHO as they were pretty keen to invade. Of course Blair and labour bear the greatest burden [ they lied and they should face charges IMHO] but lets not pretend they acted alone or it was just them that wanted war [ or that it would have been different if it was a tory govt either].

Either way it was shameful the way the elected representatives of this country , led by the govt of the day, ignored the clear wishes of the people and entered a war on such dubious grounds.

Labour fan boy , dont be silly I am way more left wing that that rabble

It’s difficult to outright condemn people on either side who were lied to.

Like hell it is. Just like everyone else they would have heard Robin Cook’s speech to Parliament. As Foreign Secretary Robin Cook would have been as well-informed as Blair. Robin Cook made it clear that Iraq was going to be attacked because it was considered after years of crippling sanctions to be weak, not because it was a threat.

Did all those Tory MPs who enthusiastically voted in favour of war really believe that Tony Blair would be daft enough to want to attack a country with weapons of mass destruction?

Or that Tony Blair was so daft as to want to start a war with a country which he claimed could launch biological/chemical weapons onto targets as far as Cyprus within 45 minutes of the war starting?

And be in such a hurry to do it that he wouldn’t even wait for Hans Blick and his team of UN inspectors to finish their inspections telling them to get out quick because the bombing was going to start.

If Tony Blair had believed what he was saying then he was potentially risking the deaths of tens of thousands British lives by attacking Iraq. Not a very good vote winner.

It was clear from the start that the British government was fully convinced that Iraq had no usable weapons of mass destruction, or that they could be a threat.

The Tory MPs, just like the Labour MPs, knew that Iraq was weak and posed no threat when they voted in favour of attacking it.

There is always the potential that the invasion of Iraq was part of a pre-conceived longer term strategy:

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXS3vW47mOE[/video]

North Merseyside (Bootle Ward I believe) here & everyone will be voting labour that I know, Obviously Conservative supporters are few & far between here anyway.

I often have to remind myself a lot of my grumbles are actually with society & not a political party…

Funny some of the issues people consider important though, the immigration red herring, Iraq War, really? international perseption of the party leader, based on the madness of newspaper propaganda blah blah…

Old people freezing to Death, Kids below the Poverty line, Housing, Education, Health care, jobs, these matter most to me for the good of the country, none actually effect me currently, but they are the everyday real world issues that shouldn’t even be up for discussion in my eyes!

Funny some of the issues people consider important though, the immigration red herring, Iraq War, really?

No not really. That’s why Tony Blair was able to very comfortably win a general election after the Iraq War had been exposed as a disaster based on lies.

It obviously wasn’t very important.

Edit – misread your reply…

Bedtime for me

My point was Iraq being important when choosing now, only a fool would believe they went all in it together.

My point was Iraq being important when choosing now

No of course not, but Tory supporters still bang on about it. They seem to think that the Tory Party is somehow exonerated from blame.

IIRC more labour MP’s voted against it than Tories and it opnly passed due to conservative support

Hold on, hold on, that’s an interesting re-engineering of history! It (also) only passed due to Labour support!

@molgrips – thanks for the post on government contracts and I understand and agree with all except the “Tory dogma” bit, I don’t think any government would think its a good idea to have government IT done inhouse.

JY I’ll read the link you posted that stuff particularly interests me. Without wishing to incur your wrath ( 😉 ) we have a far more progressive VAT regime than does the EU as we have no VAT on food, childrens clothes and low rates on utilities. There’s lots of politics in how the figures are interpreted when speaking of regressive taxes and not including benefits/tax credits is a gaping flaw (a deliberate one I would say).

Going into Iraq was inevitable, the whole “lies” rationale thing is imply irrelevant. The operation was mishandled in that not enough troops went in and we left too soon, largely IMO due to public pressure.

Yes, but not money included in the figures is financed by PFI as you have replaced financial gearing with operational gearing.

Most school builds/ refurbishments weren’t paid for by PFI.

No, but like he said, they’re an investment that (if run well) will pay back in the long term

Not within the lifetime of a government, it won’t. Much like the bailout.

Going into Iraq was inevitable, the whole “lies” rationale thing is imply irrelevant.

You think it’s irrelevant that our government made stuff up to justify a war? Sheesh.

I don’t think any government would think its a good idea to have government IT done inhouse.

Outsourcing is Tory dogma no? Private sector good, public bad?

There’s in-house, and there’s in-house. Simply having the current agencies recruit IT staff wouldn’t be good. It needs proper reorganisation, because what it really needs is central control and expertise not a bunch of contractors looking for a big profit.

Most school builds/ refurbishments weren’t paid for by PFI.

According to Wiki, 55.5% of the Building Schools for the Future programme was financed by PFI so a pretty bit chunk was.

Outsourcing is Tory dogma no? Private sector good, public bad?

If you read the speech I linked to earlier the Tory approach is big projects big providers bad, small projects small provider good

Some projects are inherently big though..

Just looked at our local (accidental) Tory MP’s voting record. He tried to bring in private members bills to reinstate the death penalty, and conscription, voted against gay marriage,for the bedroom tax, and further cuts to disabled benefits, is rabidly anti-Europe, and is in the bookies top 5 of Tory’s likely to defect to UKIP.

But to me, he’s the real face of the Tory party, behind Dave’s rapidly crumbling facade. What a lovely man. I’m very much looking forward to seeing him booted into electoral oblivion later today.

Wonder how many people will be voting Tory because of the vast crossover between politics and the media

David Cameron’s five secret meetings with Rupert Murdoch

Going into Iraq was inevitable, the whole “lies” rationale thing is imply irrelevant. The operation was mishandled in that not enough troops went in and we left too soon, largely IMO due to public pressure.

same source as the “Ed Milliband stabbed his brother in back” nonsense you spouted on another thread?

we left too soon, largely IMO due to public pressure.

Or “democracy”*, as it’s sometimes called.

* In the UK, I mean. Obviously “we” didn’t leave too much democracy behind in Iraq, just sectarian death squads and an ethnically divided country.

Yeah, democracy is pretty flawed as a concept in many ways…

Wonder how many people will be voting Tory because of the vast crossover between politics and the media

And how many will recall that Tony Blair went to Rupert and Wendi’s wedding, is godfather to their most recent child, frequently holidayed with them and according to the Economist reportedly had a “special relationship” over and above that?

Everyone can recall Blair’s relationship with Murdoch, Blair was a lapdog to the right wing press, everyone knows it, what’s your point?

This is how much of a nasty piece of work my MP is. Clearly supports war, the rich, pissing money up the wall and privatisation. Doesn’t like the poor, the vulnerable, the disabled, opportunities, the NHS or the climate. Tories are delightful.

Voted strongly for use of UK military forces in combat operations overseas

Voted very strongly for the Iraq war

Voted moderately for replacing Trident with a new nuclear weapons system

Voted strongly for reducing housing benefit for social tenants deemed to have excess bedrooms (which Labour describe as the “bedroom tax”)

Voted very strongly against raising welfare benefits at least in line with prices

Voted very strongly against paying higher benefits over longer periods for those unable to work due to illness or disability

Voted very strongly for making local councils responsible for helping those in financial need afford their council tax and reducing the amount spent on such support

Voted strongly for a reduction in spending on welfare benefits

Voted strongly against spending public money to create guaranteed jobs for young people who have spent a long time unemployed

Voted strongly for increasing the rate of VAT

Voted very strongly against increasing the tax rate applied to income over £150,000

Voted strongly against a banker’s bonus tax

Voted strongly against an annual tax on the value of expensive homes (popularly known as a mansion tax)

Voted strongly for reducing the rate of corporation tax

Voted very strongly against restricting the provision of services to private patients by the NHS

Voted very strongly for raising England’s undergraduate tuition fee cap to £9,000 per year

Voted very strongly for ending financial support for some 16-19 year olds in training and further education

Voted strongly against a more proportional system for electing MPs

Voted moderately for a stricter asylum system

Voted very strongly for the introduction of elected Police and Crime Commissioners

Voted very strongly against slowing the rise in rail fares

Voted very strongly for selling England’s state owned forests

Voted very strongly for capping civil service redundancy payments

Voted very strongly for the privatisation of Royal Mail

Voted a mixture of for and against financial incentives for low carbon emission electricity generation methods

Voted strongly for restricting the scope of legal aid

Voted moderately for culling badgers to tackle bovine tuberculosis

Voted very strongly against restrictions on fees charged to tenants by letting agents

If any of the Tories can adequately explain why five of the things he voted for are a good idea and why five of things he voted against are a bad idea I will eat Nick Clegg.

This is how much of a nasty piece of work my MP is. Clearly supports war, the rich, pissing money up the wall and privatisation. Doesn’t like the poor, the vulnerable, the disabled, opportunities, the NHS or the climate. Tories are delightful.

Do you live in the Chilterns, and are ‘represented’ by David Gawke, MunroB?

Wonder how many people will be voting Tory because of the vast crossover between politics and the media

I am

To be fair, the tories don’t have a monopoly on being horrible people. Eric Joyce (Labour stalwart) is a vicious thug that has assaulted people and Cyril Smith was allegedly a serious paedophile.

Mind you, my local MP appears to have tried to break up the NHS, but that may not have been entirely his own idea.

A tory MP punching someone

@munro – a few comments. I didn’t manage all the list as it was taking ages to edit the comment

Difficult decisions made in the wake of 9/11 and 7/7 and the rise of Al-Queda to address serious threat to regional stability

Voted strongly for use of UK military forces in combat operations overseas
Voted very strongly for the Iraq war

Retaining our nuclear deterrent is an important element of our national security policy and our international commitments

Voted moderately for replacing Trident with a new nuclear weapons system

Difficult decisions made to reduce spending and try and bring the deficit under control

Voted strongly for reducing housing benefit for social tenants deemed to have excess bedrooms (which Labour describe as the “bedroom tax”)

Voted very strongly against raising welfare benefits at least in line with prices

Voted very strongly against paying higher benefits over longer periods for those unable to work due to illness or disability

Voted very strongly for making local councils responsible for helping those in financial need afford their council tax and reducing the amount spent on such support

Voted strongly for a reduction in spending on welfare benefits

Voted strongly against spending public money to create guaranteed jobs for young people who have spent a long time unemployed

Voted very strongly for ending financial support for some 16-19 year olds in training and further education

Voted very strongly for raising England’s undergraduate tuition fee cap to £9,000 per year

Voted strongly for restricting the scope of legal aid

Because it’s a very effective tax raising large amounts and is paid by visitors to the UK. At 20% our rate of VAT is now consistent with other EU countries instead of being lower.

Voted strongly for increasing the rate of VAT

Because both are counterproductive as they lead to changes in behaviour and less revenue actually collected

Voted very strongly against increasing the tax rate applied to income over £150,000

Voted strongly against a banker’s bonus tax

We already have property taxes in the form of stamp duty which where increased materially instead

Voted strongly against an annual tax on the value of expensive homes (popularly known as a mansion tax)

To encourage businesses to relocate to the UK

Voted strongly for reducing the rate of corporation tax

Voted very strongly against restricting the provision of services to private patients by the NHS

Not in he interests of Labour or Tories to vote for this, we had a referendum on AV
Voted strongly against a more proportional system for electing MPs

Asylum system needs reforming further, too much abuse by economic migrants at the expense of legitamte claiments. Hugely expensive currently.

Voted moderately for a stricter asylum system

Voted very strongly for the introduction of elected Police and Crime Commissioners

Voted very strongly against slowing the rise in rail fares

Voted very strongly for selling England’s state owned forests

Private sector companies have caps, also in recent times private sector redundancy packages have been cut back substantially. Redundancy payments out of control at the BBC

Voted very strongly for capping civil service redundancy payments

Good job you didn’t waste much more time. I did stipulate “adequately”, of which only the stamp duty answer and the corporation tax one are.