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1. grum - Member

   I don't see how the Government could ever legalise drugs. Alcohol is relatively low risk and has been used widely quite literally since man found out how to make it. Can you seriously imagine a time when there will be a minimum legal age for people to buy drugs like heroine or cannabis? Get real.
   

   Alcohol is low risk of what? The current massive health, social, and public order problems currently caused by alcohol don't really fit with that do they?

   BTW Portugal has adopted a liberalised drugs policy which has apparently been very successful.

   The question is, does the new policy work? At the time, critics in the poor, socially conservative and largely Catholic nation said decriminalizing drug possession would open the country to "drug tourists" and exacerbate Portugal's drug problem; the country had some of the highest levels of hard-drug use in Europe. But the recently released results of a report commissioned by the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank, suggest otherwise.

   The paper, published by Cato in April, found that in the five years after personal possession was decriminalized, illegal drug use among teens in Portugal declined and rates of new HIV infections caused by sharing of dirty needles dropped, while the number of people seeking treatment for drug addiction more than doubled.

   "Judging by every metric, decriminalization in Portugal has been a resounding success," says Glenn Greenwald, an attorney, author and fluent Portuguese speaker, who conducted the research. "It has enabled the Portuguese government to manage and control the drug problem far better than virtually every other Western country does."

   http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html

   But let's just stick with the current policy which is working so well because........... well................ drugs are bad, mmmmkay?

   Posted 1 year ago #
2. Junkyard - Member

   Alcohol is relatively low risk and has been used widely quite literally since man found out how to make it.

   
   You are just ignoring the statsitics now.

   I do like the odd pint spliff but I am able to excercise common sense and self control and know when to stop. In my eyes therefore alcohol cannabis is low risk. I'm sure there are millions of people in this country who also excercise moderation when drinkingsmoking spliffs and would feel the same way.

   I have known drug addicts drinkers and I've seen one family who lives close to me being torn apart by addiction. To an outside observer who didn't know them they would appear to be a fairly affluent middle class family where a couple of members smoked dope drank occasionally. Unfortunately for them below the surface there were problems with long term heroine addictionalcoholism and gambling and some pretty messy consequences. I like to think it is best to learn from the mistakes of others in some areas of life. I don't think you need to have been an addict to be able to express views on the nature of, and the damage caused by, addiction.

   This stuff does not only happen with drugs that is true I know and the above is actually real. mate of mine from school became an alcoholic and is now a dead sloicitor leaving two kids and a young wife after drinking himself to death at 39. he did manage to kick the crap out of her three times before she kicked him out and he lost his job before continuing to drink himself to death with no friends.

   The moral is ALL drugs are dangerous to some degree[ some peole die mtb you know almost everything is dangerous to some degree- E's for example are very safe 13 deaths to million of pills taken]. Some people are more susceptible to some drugs than others .. I am sure you do drink occasionally but that does not mean it is not a very real problem for others does it? Some drugs are worse than others and more addcitive and dangerous say glue/solvents or alcohol and cocaine in middle aged men [heart attack]. Prohibition is ineffective in reducing harm or use.
   You do need to be swayed by facts a bit more. Yes drugs have messed up people lives legal ones and illegal ones so has gambling, smoking, sex food, etc.

   Posted 1 year ago #
3. Big Dave - Member

   Junkyard, I've had an aunt drink herself to death (a truly sad and pointless end to a life) and two other relatives die from smoking and drinking related diseases so I know full well that the stuff some people consider harmless can do truly awful things to others. I've also seen the violence and abuse that can surround the use of alcohol. I'm well aware of the facts and the impact.

   Maybe thats what has made me so measured in my approach to booze and so cautious on the subject of drugs. It is also probably behind my fairly intolerant views on drugs and addicts; I guess I'm not someone who is prone to loosing control to the point of addiction and I have no time for those who are. That ain't going to change anytime soon.

   Posted 1 year ago #
4. Peyote - Member

   Surely the addiction is harm? And the fact you tend to stop caring about other things?

   That's a good point Molgrips. I think there has to be a distinction made between physiological damage; i.e whether a certain substance is poisonous, what quantiites it can be considered poisonous and what damage can be caused, and psychological damage; i.e the ease at which addiction can be created and the effect of the substance on the users mental well being.

   The problem in my mind is, the former is relatively easy to quantify, the latter is far more dependant on the individual user. For example, I suspect in some people addiction to alcohol or gambling causes the addict to disregard all else to get there next drink/fix. I'm not sure if heroin is particularly more addictive than anything else. Indeed one of the regular lines trotted out in smoking cessation literature is that nicotine is more addictive than heroin. I'm suspicious about the accuracy of this though.

   Posted 1 year ago #
5. sherry - Member

   hard drugs are the plaything of the sort of person you'd find running out of your back yard rather than providing you with financial advice.

   
   How do you know? Well your hardly likely to as they can afford to get private professional help and large company's do not want images and public trust damaged so they keep it quiet. Why do you think doctors are not allowed to keep controlled drug keys in hospitals? Even the best educated individuals succumb to drugs for all different reasons.

   To suggest someone with a good education/higher class status is less likely use class A drug is just plain silly.

   You have seen one section of society and assume that its exclusively associated to them. If I don't see it then it doesn't happen unfortunately does not apply.

   I have known of plenty of "professionals" with serious drug habits.

   I was under the impression that it was fairly uncommon outside of society's underclasses and rockstar circles (which aren't always separate things)
   

   
   

   Smoking was the habit of the remedial classes (at my school at any rate)

   Are IMHO quite pompous statements.

   Posted 1 year ago #
6. Junkyard - Member

   I guess I'm not someone who is prone to loosing control to the point of addiction and I have no time for those who are. That ain't going to change anytime soon.

   
   what as shame more peole are not controlled like you eh?
   i dont overeat or drink nor am i addictted to gambling or prostitution or sex - though I have tried all but one of them. I am still however able to be empathetic towards people who are not as mentally tough [genetic predisposition to addiction is clearly weakness ???] and strong as me and display compassion to their plight whilst attempting to understand it and the complex causes of it.
   Not everyone who drinks ends up an alcohlic I dont think mental toughness is the main reason for this difference as perhaps there is something in addictive stuff that makes them addictive rather than lack of control on the users part?
   Addiction is classed as an illness FWIW.
   Not changing your view is not neccessarily a sign of strength it may just be stubborness.

   Posted 1 year ago #
7. Quirrel - Member

   Interesting reading.

   I never really comment on threads like this. I don't feel the Internet is private enough a place to discuss my past.

   H, Crack and Meth - the try oncers. Met people in life who were like a government warning, tried it once and couldn't get enough.
   Met others who can take it or leave it.
   All depends on the person and their circumstances.

   A previous life and previous associates, one was highish in protective services in the NE and his addictions were managed and he held down an influential job.

   and yet, others from poorer walks of life have dabbled in the brown and their life hasn't been so propserous.

   each to their own, but I made sure never to try it, just to be sure that it wasn't a vice that I couldn't walk away from like the others.

   Posted 1 year ago #
8. crikey - Member

   A large proportion of this thread is concerned with well balanced, well educated and above all,fortunate peoples experiences with drugs.

   The real story lies in those less fortunate, and the way that drugs become less of a recreational activity and more of a way of coping with lives that start out bad and just get worse.

   Sad...

   Posted 1 year ago #
9. ballsofcottonwool - Member

   As far as I can see legalising Heroin has too many pros for it to be considered sensible

   Safer, cheaper, better quality gear for smackheads
   Less burglarys for the general public.
   Reduced costs in policing, the courts and customs.
   Jobs for Afgahistan and the pharmaceuticl sector.
   Tax revenue for our Government.

   Posted 1 year ago #
10. Cougar - Member

    How do you know?

    Sorry, it might not have been too clear, but I was meaning "in my experience." I don't know.

    To suggest someone with a good education/higher class status is less likely use class A drug is just plain silly.

    Is it? You might be right, but without any stats to back that up, what you've got there is opinion. Anyway, that's not what I said; I was suggesting that drug use might be akin to an inverse bell curve, where usage increases as you tend towards either extreme. Again though, this is pure speculation.

    You have seen one section of society and assume that its exclusively associated to them. If I don't see it then it doesn't happen unfortunately does not apply.

    Well, that's not quite what I'm saying. I'm saying that the drug users I've seen tend to be of a particular demographic (generally, there are exceptions of course); I'm not saying that this demographic tend to be drug users, and at no point have I claimed that my experience can be extrapolated out to apply to the whole country. The area I live in is more deprived than some, and in all likelyhood this probably skews my experiences. Perhaps I see more druggies that are of lower social standing simply because statistically I see more scrotes per capita than I would if I lived in Hampshire.

    I don't know if it's accidental or intentional, but you seem to be reading meaning into what I'm saying and then arguing against it.

    "I was under the impression that it was fairly uncommon outside of society's underclasses and rockstar circles (which aren't always separate things)"

    "Smoking was the habit of the remedial classes (at my school at any rate)"

    Are IMHO quite pompous statements.
    

    
    The first, perhaps. My point was really that heroin didn't seem to me to be the middle-class drug of choice. I'm not wholly unconvinced that this isn't true, but I'll happily admit that I made it up.

    The second, sorry, it's simply a fact. The 'smokers corner' denizens were exclusively B-band pupils, I'm strugging to think of any A-band kids who smoked.

    Posted 1 year ago #
11. thomthumb - Member

    a lot seem to assume that heroin users are addicts.

    some are, not all though - you have no more idea about a casual user on the street than you do if they are a drinker or teetotaller.

    drugs do not ruin lives - addiction does.

    Posted 1 year ago #
12. peterfile - Member

    This thread has completely changed my perspective on the members of this board.

    I had you all down as a bunch of Daily Mail readers who tucked their copy of the Daily Mail inside the Times so that people wouldn't know that you were reading it.

    However, with very few exceptions, I'm impressed by how open minded most of the posters in this thread are.

    My best friend and I are often referred to as the basis for Fear and Loathing since he's a Dr in Psychopharmacology and I'm a lawyer, and we head out to Vegas a couple of times a year.

    With few execeptions, all drugs are pretty safe in MODERATION.

    You have to make the distinction between use and abuse. I'd rather be an occasional heroin user than an alcoholic. And I'd rather being an occasional drinker than a junkie.

    That said, I'm most happy being an occasional user of pretty much every drug.

    The ones to avoid, in my (farily extensive experience) are PCP and Meth. PCP is just nuts, and the word "moderation" can't be used in the same sentence as meth!

    I also avoid most pyschoactive drugs such as LSD, simply because i'm getting too old to enjoy them comfortably. To many hang ups from an increasingly stressful life.

    MODERATION.

    (incidentally, for those who commented otherwise, clean heroin is not toxic to humans).

    Posted 1 year ago #
13. simonfbarnes - Member

    You can feel quite nauseous at first, but that soon passes.

    I was offered it in hospital when I had a broken wrist and it was utterly vile

    Posted 1 year ago #
14. mrmichaelwright - Member

    E's for example are very safe 13 deaths to million of pills taken

    The figure i seem to recall is less than 10 per million users

    and the deaths are generally related to overheating/over hydration and (very few) contaminates, the first two generally preventable by 'responsible' consumption.

    I know people who are casual users of Heroine and Crack Cocaine, they seem to be perfectly able to hold down a job (although in an industry where drug use is generally endemic)

    I also know people who followed the typical 'gateway' drug path from clubbing back in the day and are now complete wasters or dead.

    I'd love to trust myself enough to try some of these stronger drugs but I consider myself to have a very weak tolerance to addiction.

    Posted 1 year ago #
15. user-removed - Member

    Peyote - Member

    I'm not sure if heroin is particularly more addictive than anything else. Indeed one of the regular lines trotted out in smoking cessation literature is that nicotine is more addictive than heroin. I'm suspicious about the accuracy of this though.

    Quitting smoking / drinking could be said to be harder due partly to the socially acceptable nature of the drugs. That is, you can't walk into a newsagent and buy smack, crack or crystal-meth. Well, not round these parts anyway.... The new legislation to hide cigarettes in shops will almost certainly help would-be non-smokers.

    Also, regarding addicts "...not caring about anything else"; I'm sure that's true of some addicts, but I refer you to my earlier post about my very caring family-man mate, running a succesful business.

    And tomthumb - I personally have never met any casual smack/crack/meth users. They've all fallen for it eventually, or given it up just in time.

    Posted 1 year ago #
16. simonralli2 - Member

    This is a really interesting thread for me, especially as I am about to launch my book on natural plant hallucinogens.

    All through the writing of it I have felt a great responsibility not to glamourize them, nor encourage people to experiment with them. I do though feel that responsible experimentation and exploration with them can really evolve our scientific thinking on cognition and psychology, and that if used responsibly then they can be of great benefit to mankind.

    However, especially in the West, unlike indigenous cultures who have worked with these plants for many thousands of years, we are like teenagers who mostly wish to abuse them, or use them for all the wrong reasons, and of course many drugs cause terrible problems both in our society, and those countries where they are grown and exported from.

    I have no desire to try heroin at all, or anything like it.

    Posted 1 year ago #
17. JonEdwards - Member

    Another "shocked at the number of experimenters" here.

    I work in the music/ents industry, and even that, these days seems to be relatively clean (although I mostly do corporate work). Coke and weed seem to be the drugs of choice, but in moderation - the guys who start caning it get unreliable, so just aren't booked anymore. High percentage of smokers though and a fair amount of alchohol outside of work.

    Me? I'm one of those who had a fairly uptight upbringing. I've never smoked anything in my life and never had the desire to. Just seems alien to deliberately inhale smoke! I drank heavilyish for about 6 months in my first year at uni, then decided that actually I didn't like being drunk. I like the taste of beer and whisky, but in moderation - maybe 5 units a month. Coffee could be a habit too (caffeine is a drug after all) but more than 3 or 4 in a day and I start feeling pretty rough, so that's self limiting. Again that's a taste/smell thing.

    Anything else? Well I remember seeing some mates snorting coke backstage at a gig - the only smooth shiny surface was the glass lens of one of those rectangular garden floodlights, and they had that on the floor and were crawling around to snort off the top of it. I just couldn't believe that other wise rational, intelligent, human beings would be that beholden to some white powder to scrub about on the floor after it. Really shocked me how sordid it all was. Injecting? Just no way.

    About the only high I understand is endorphins. One of the reasons I ride bikes lots. That and feeling "The Flow"(tm) on a great bit of singletrack in a stunning location.

    Posted 1 year ago #
18. Cougar - Member

    About the only high I understand is endorphins.

    You know, given the nature of the forum I'm amazed it's taken this long for someone to say that.

    I watched some documentary or other a while back (of the Horizons / QED ilk) which reckoned they'd found the gene which caused people to be thrill seekers; if you had the 'short' version of the gene then you actively avoided peril, people with the 'long' version were lovers of rollercoasters, skydiving etc. Not just that, but they needed the thrill and were unhappy if they couldn't get their fix. Interesting stuff. I definitely fall into the latter category.

    I wonder perhaps if there's something similar relating to drugs / addiction? Hm.

    Posted 1 year ago #
19. allthepies - Member

    Are there any countries in the world where UK "A" classified drugs are legal ?

    Posted 1 year ago #
20. Junkyard - Member

    endorphine = endogenous morphine or heroin basically but natures own.
    HTH

    Posted 1 year ago #
21. Garry_Lager - Member

    (incidentally, for those who commented otherwise, clean heroin is not toxic to humans).

    LOL

    This is a really interesting thread for me, especially as I am about to launch my book on natural plant hallucinogens.

    All through the writing of it I have felt a great responsibility not to glamourize them, nor encourage people to experiment with them. I do though feel that responsible experimentation and exploration with them can really evolve our scientific thinking on cognition and psychology, and that if used responsibly then they can be of great benefit to mankind.

    
    Did you know that morphine is made endogenously by human's Simon? It was a point of conjecture for a long time, but the evidence is now pretty solid. Quite interesting that we would share an endogenous biosynthetic pathway for an alkaloid like morphine with a plant. The role endogenous morphine might play in our bodies has yet to be clarified AFAIK.

    Posted 1 year ago #
22. Stoatsbrother - Member

    Are there any countries in the world where UK "A" classified drugs are legal ?
    

    The UK in Victorian times...

    Posted 1 year ago #
23. Junkyard - Member

    see the opium wars we have even been to war for it.

    Posted 1 year ago #
24. Blower - Member

    Yep ive done it a few times..

    one old mate died from it last week..15 years on the stuff,bad batch or somet so they say.

    Posted 1 year ago #
25. The Southern Yeti - Member

    I shoplifted a packet of frazzles and a snickers (marathon) as a kid.

    Posted 1 year ago #
26. Quirrel - Member

    psychoactive plants

    Datura is something I hold huge respect to.

    wwww.erowid.com and http://www.lycaeum.com are great reads on a sunday afternoon.

    Posted 1 year ago #
27. Zedsdead - Member

    Haven't read the whole thread but having had to walk a friend around his parents garden to keep him 'moving' while waiting an an amulance I'd say don't do it. But then he was loving it...

    Posted 1 year ago #
28. simonralli2 - Member

    Quirrel

    I have smoked Datura, and also ingested it as an admixture of ayahuasca. I think it is generally regarded as the worlds strongest hallucinogen. I have also obviously tried many different "teacher plants" including chacruna, huambisa, chullachaqui, chirisanango, huyra caspi, ajo sacha, pucha pari, marosa, tobacco, and pinar colorado amongst others.

    Gary

    Yes, I stay away from pharmacology in my book as that is not my area of expertise. But there is also the work looking at the endogenous possibilities of DMT too.

    Posted 1 year ago #
29. Quirrel - Member

    I have smoked Datura, and also ingested it as an admixture of ayahuasca. I think it is generally regarded as the worlds strongest hallucinogen.

    It's classed as a delerient, rather than a hallucinogen. DMT I believe is the most powerful natural halucinogen.

    Saying that though, nowt like a bit of Penis Envy to get you spangled.

    Posted 1 year ago #
30. SBrock - Member

    my sister took her life taking all her prescribed morphine and a bottle of wine. The coroner said she would of gone peacefully!

    I take great comfort in that!

    Never done Heroin, but nearly flatlined once on Ketamine...I was scared!

    Posted 1 year ago #
31. tang - Member

    Datura is very dangerous. I know about its ritual use in India. I know of 4 people who have lost their marbles due to misuse.

    Posted 1 year ago #
32. noteeth - Member

    I'm well aware that it's possible to maintain a smack habit much in the way that some people do the gardening.

    But I wouldn't say that reflects my experience with users who are admitted to hospital... At one point, iirc, Bristol was one of the cheapest places in the country for it - and the BRI was heaving with the living dead, to say nothing of the shootings and stabbings that accompanied the dealers' turf wars. I saw some of the saddest things I've ever seen in my life - not least desperate teenagers on the game, staring ruin in the face.

    "The junk merchant doesn't sell his product to the consumer, he sells the consumer to his product. He does not improve and simplify his merchandise. He degrades and simplifies the client."

    — William S. Burroughs

    Posted 1 year ago #
33. simonralli2 - Member

    Tang

    You are right there and I forgot to add the bit about it being so dangerous. I have taken it under guidance and in a way that does not have those risks, but then you could argue that you never can knowingly reduce the risks to 0. I have of course heard and read of plenty of horror stories too and would never take it in that hardcore way.

    Posted 1 year ago #
34. xiphon - Member

    
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5JeBlXjHQ8

    Posted 1 year ago #
35. konabunny - Member

    That 0.1mg of heroine has undoubtedly been handled by violent criminals. I don't recall any instances where Smirnoff has murdered people to keep its supply lines open or to silence their competition. I don't have kids but if I did I would rather they grew up in a world full of off licence owners than drug dealers.

    What annoys about the 'lets all take a more measured approach to drugs' line is that the people spouting such crap forget that the drugs they buy are ultimately tainted with the blood of countless people.

    I'm coming late to this, obviously, but you may wish to consider the fact that for a big chunk of the 90s when alcohol smuggling was a really, really big deal in the UK, it was, obviously enough, mostly in the hands of organised crime groups. Equally, you may also wish to consider that the UK sources a significant proportion of its alcohol from Russia, where the alcohol industry is heavily criminalised and plugged into the political-military-industrial complex, which itself feeds into the global illegal drugs trade by keeping it supplied with arms, money laundering and law destabilisation solutions.

    The global drugs supply and distribution is, absolutely, filled with deeply evil people and then money and corruption/trafficking/violence systems that it sustains lead to unimaginable misery, death and exploitation. That's why it's so important to take it out of the hands of criminals. The current approach has failed miserably in achieving that - in fact, it has encouraged them to consolidate control.

    There was a question about where drugs which are classified Class A in the UK are legal. Coca leaf is Class A in the UK and is legal in Peru, Bolivia and Venezuela: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca (tbf, the endorsement by Chavez probably wasn't much of a help). Peyote is legal in Canada. "Mushrooms" are legal in the Netherlands (although ISTR there was a move to ban their sale a couple of years ago). (All info according to wikipedia).

    Posted 1 year ago #

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