are proper rim strips better than the ghetto method of sealing?

All of mine are done with Stans yellow tape and stay up fine, good rims are the best solution and Tubeless ready tyres help. Taking plenty of abuse, the only fails are in situations when tubes would have been shredded.

Depends – on a non tubeless rim if the tyre is a bit baggy the rim strip can help build it up a bit to help reduce burps. But you can achieve a similar result by doing more wraps of tape.

I struggled with the stans rim strip kits a few years ago. However tried the gorilla tape method a year or so ago worked a treat still going strong even after a few tyre changes no issues at all.

No problems on several sets of wheels with gorilla tape. Apparently, its what enve uses anyway.

gorilla tape ftw

I’ve had more failures on my proper tubeless rim with proper tubeless rim tape than I did with my inner tube ghetto setup. Both rims were the same internal width, running the same tyre with the same pressure. Ghetto has failed 0 times whereas proper has failed twice so far. I ran ghetto for longer than I’ve run proper.

No, no, no, never ghetto!

Ghetto setups never, ever make it through the week out here. And the rider always protests that “it’s fine at home!”.

(Cue chorus of posts by people who rode the Megavalanche 17 times in a day, every day, for a week, with a ghetto tubeless setup… 😉 )

Ghetto every time for mtb (I’ve ridden many time in the alps on a ghetto setup no problem 🙄 ) although on my CX bike with a too loose tyre/road rim combo, then I can see the value of rim strips making a decent profile for the tyre to sit on.

Sure I read that Jared Graves runs (or at least ran) ghettoed standard rims on his EWS race bike. Reckoned it was more reliable than a ‘proper’ set up: something about the extra lip of tube at the bead protecting against pinch flats I think.

Tape on nontubeless rims can be pretty variable, it depends a lot on the shape of the rim. Some don’t work at all, some are a lot of faff, some work really well. I wasted a lot of time and spoiled rides trying to get my old Mavics to work well with tape, frinstance, I’d have got there eventually but it wasn’t worth the hassle.

Just important to remember that “workign” doesn’t mean “inflates”, it means “stays up and stays on the rim no matter what you do when riding”. I got my 5.1 rims to inflate with just tape frinstance which a lot of people would declare a success but I could push the tyre off the rim with very little effort.

FWIW, here’s a summary of my tubeless experience over nearly 10 years of Alpine living / guiding. Based on my own experience and that of friends and other guides riding most days on pretty gnarly, lift-accessed trails – i.e. banging out 4000m+ of descending on harsh, rocky trails. I’m fairly heavy (over 14 stone with guide pack) and my riding style has been described as “unsubtle”.

1. Fully ghetto – i.e. non-tubeless rim, BMX tube and non-tubeless, single-ply tyre:
Forget it. Lucky to last one run. Virtually no chance of it lasting a week.

2. Semi-ghetto – non-tubeless rim, BMX tube, tubeless tyre:
Highly-variable. Can work well, but very prone to burping. Likely to become unreliable very quickly due to minor rim & sidewall damage.

3. Semi-ghetto – tubeless rim + tape, non-tubeless tyre:
Will probably work well initially, but the tyre sidewalls just won’t take the battering. Unlikely to last a week of hard riding. Very prone to burping.

4. Semi-ghetto – non-tubeless rim + decent conversion rim strip (e.g. Joes, Stans), good tubeless tyre.
Works well. Generally very reliable, but will suffer occasional burping and reliability will go down as you pick-up minor rim and sidewall damage. Should last a month or two of hard riding. Used this setup last season and was happy with it overall, but did have to put a tube in a couple of times.

5. Semi-ghetto – as above, but with a ghetto rimstrip instead of a proper one – have seen this work reasonably well. All down to the tyre and rim combination. If you use a good (i.e. tough, tubeless) tyre and it works well initially, it generally lasts fairly well. Similar success rate/life-span to 4.

6. Full tubeless setup, lightweight tyre (i.e. standard/single-ply tubeless or tubeless ready tyre).
Works great to begin with but light-weight tyres just won’t hold up to the abuse. Sidewall damage will kill it within 2-3 weeks of hard riding.

7. Full tubeless setup, heavy-duty tyre (i.e. double-ply, UST or very tough tubeless-ready tyre).
Almost bomb-proof, but HEAVY. I’ve gone whole seasons without a single burp or puncture using this setup and invariably when I’ve had any minor issues it’s becauase I’ve let the sealant dry out. 😳

All this is based on Alps riding and a lot of these setups would probably go weeks and weeks without any problems on trail-centre type trails. A lot of the burps come in fairly unusual situations – e.g. very steep switchbacks with rocky or rooty steps where there is a huge side-load on the tyre – a tyre burp in this situation is pretty scary and often disastrous by the way!

Seems like what you’re saying is there’s not much wrong with ghetto setups but it’s the tyres to me Steve. out of interest, what pressures were you running as a rule?
I run ghetto but don’t run low pressures. no burps, no significant side wall problems, aside from the slits I have had from the flintcap i ride on a lot. 🙄
cheap, lightweight tyres and not even TR style however. the tyres i’ve used with side wall reinforcement have had no problems ( on-one ).
having been on one of your holidays, i reckon my setup would be fine. 8)

Del – the tyres and rims are the most crucial part.

Lightweight, non-tubeless tyres will never work well. Non-tubeless rims really need a solid conversion kit. I’m actually revising my point 4 above because I’ve just remembered Pat was running a tubeless rim (Hope Enduro) last year, rather than the same Nukeproof (non-tubeless) rims as me.

Sidewall damage will kill it within 2-3 weeks of hard riding.

Are tubeless setups inherently worse than a similar setup with a tube for sidewall failure?

also depends on the tyre pressure too

jeffcapeshop – probably yes, because minor sidewall damage will ruin a tubeless setup where you might not notice it with a tube (up to a point, obviously).

On the other hand, with tubes, I’ll get 5 pinch-flats a day round here unless I pump them up to stupid pressure. That’s also my view on running tubeless at high-pressure to prevent burps, etc. – what’s the point? Tubeless is all about being able to get away with low, grippy pressures.

I do appreciate that for some people thorn-type punctures are the issue and they’re therefore happy to use a light-weight tubeless rim/tyre combination at high pressure. For us, that’s never the case – all about pinch flats and sidewalls.

6. Full tubeless setup, lightweight tyre (i.e. standard/single-ply tubeless or tubeless ready tyre).
Works great to begin with but light-weight tyres just won’t hold up to the abuse. Sidewall damage will kill it within 2-3 weeks of hard riding.

7. Full tubeless setup, heavy-duty tyre (i.e. double-ply, UST or very tough tubeless-ready tyre*).
Almost bomb-proof, but HEAVY. I’ve gone whole seasons without a single burp or puncture using this setup and invariably when I’ve had any minor issues it’s becauase I’ve let the sealant dry out.

*I think these are a separate category from dual-ply

An excellent summary from someone with plenty of experience! I think many of us will end up in either category 6 or 7, once we’ve got past the initial experimentation stages. There is a category 6.5 though, which is worth talking about:

These are the reinforced carcass variants (Maxxis Exo, Specialized Grid, Continental Protection, Schwalbe Snakeskin, etc) which are hardly any heavier but quite a lot tougher. These all vary quite a bit, both from brand to brand and within a brand depending on the carcass that’s been reinforced. However the extra toughness helps protect against pinch flats and sidewall damage and the extra stiffness allows you to run lower pressures without burping.

I’d also add to this category choosing to use a wider rim (25mm+) as doing so hugely reduces the chance of burping due to how the lateral forces on a tyre act upon the bead:

If you’re still finding tyres burping or pinching with a wide tubeless ready rim (I have Flow EX on my bigger bike) and reinforced tubeless ready tyre (I’m running Conti Protection at the back and Maxxis Exo at the front – the Conti is a bit more heavy-duty), then there’s another couple of interim steps before you go all the way to dual-ply.

The first is the Jared Graves approach of tubeless-ready rims, reinforced tubeless ready tyres AND a split-BMX-tube ghetto rim strip – he’s hitting turns with such force that the rim strip is helping keep an air seal as the tyre tries to pull itself off the rim, plus that extra bit of rubber helps prevent pinch flats (yes, you can pinch a tyre itself – I’ve done it to a UST one!) I don’t know of anyone else doing this but it makes a lot of sense to me. NB: In his last round of the EWS last year he went dual-ply as well to make sure he didn’t lose the series due to tyre problems!

The second are the Schwalbe SuperGravity, Conti Protection Apex and Specialized SX tyres (I think Bontrager do something like this too). These have either dual-ply on the sidewalls but not under the tread, additional sidewall reinforcement, 1.5-ply all over, or some other cunning tech for extra toughness without horrible drag. I don’t think the big problem with pedalling dual-ply tyres is really down to the weight but down to the hysteresis losses in the thicker carcass but these tyres are lighter than dual-ply and roll better. One of my quicker mates had problems burping Conti Protections on skinny Mavic wheels (he had to runs pressures well above 30psi) and SuperGravity solved it. Another is finding burping happening on rims only a few mm narrower than his old ones which never burped with the same tyres at the same pressure.

I find that if a tyre is squirming I put the pressure up. If I had to run the pressure so high that the tyres felt ‘boingy’ rather than planted but springy then I’d get tougher (i.e. stiffer) tyres and/or wider rims. I’ve noticed that a pressure that feels right on my local mostly dirt trails feels too low on rocky trails (and can cause pinch flats) because pointy things hitting tyres press on less of the tyre so it deforms more. You couldn’t pay me to go back to tubes but tubeless can take a while to find out what’s best for you! Well worth it though.

Yep, agree with that.

I’ve used Maxxis LUST, which are supposed to have reinforced sidewalls and found them to be hopeless.

I don’t find a big difference between the monstrously heavy Maxxis UST DH tyres and their standard Dual-Ply tubeless-ready tyres.

I’m currently using Michelin Advanced-Reinforced tubeless ready tyres. They’re a similar weight to a dual-ply Maxxis but a bit lighter than the Maxxis UST DH tyres. Working well for me so far. Ran non-tubeless rims with Stan’s rimstrips last summer with good success, but one or two problems all the same. Going to be running the same tyres with tubeless rims this summer and expecting near-flawless results.

So is it worth going tubeless then for general xc an trail centre type stuff?

roach – i think so, yes.

WRT pressures i’m not a fan of running the very low pressures that some friends do, as i just find the tyre rolling around on the rim in corners unsettling. i’m still on ‘old school’ fairly narrow rims though. maybe when i’ve killed them and go wider i’ll change my view. what this means for me though is that i’m not relying on those lighter weight side walls putting up with as much flex/hammering as the low pressure guys. i’m still getting more grip than when running tubes, and the ensemble is marginally lighter, so less rotational weight.

roach – for me, the answer is “it depends”. If you get a lot of punctures, whether pinch-flats or thorns, then yes, definitely.

If you don’t, and the changeover would be expensive (i.e. new wheels), I wouldn’t bother.