But why can’t a God or omnipotent power have created the science and the physics of the universe?

Maybe 1000’s of years ago when people were ignorant and knew jack shit about physics, biology and chemistry. The idea that a god(s) exists is delusional.

Deliberately ignoring the point there pooh.

From the fusion of hydrogen and oxygen, two very common atoms in the universe.

Where did the atoms come from? I think we are getting close now…

Where did the atoms come from? I think we are getting close

Well hydrogen is made up of a proton and an electron (standard isotope). It’s the most common atom in the universe. All atoms are made from it in stars. Protons are made up of 3 quarks, two up one down. For more information read up on the standard model of particle physics

Where did they come from? We could skip to the end but I’m sure you will keep dragging this out..

So if your end is where did the building blocks come from ? Answer god the next logical question is where did god come from ? May be the end point is while we measure time from the big bang that in reality there has always been matter all the way back or round time. To miss quote ” its matter and physics all the way down” not the indifferent un-evidenced god of the ultimate gap.

@thocb

So… god because clouds.

And bone cancer in children?

theocb – Member
Where did they come from? We could skip to the end but I’m sure you will keep dragging this out..

Well yes actually the deeper we look the more we see, if a mystical deity construct helps you get your head round that, so be it.

I think that’s about right kimbers. A mystical power created the universe.. scientists need that mystical power to get there head around the rest of it.

Where did the mystical power come from?

Take your time with the bone cancer problem…

Not knowing how something happened is simply that. Shoe-Horning in a fiction to “explain it” has no relationship whatsoever to science, although I’m sure scientists everywhere will now make great strides with their investigations following your magnificent contribution to quantum physics research…

I’m still trying to get my head around how that chicken egg survived in the big bang ..one tough shell..

The word “mutation” is a bit of a bollocks term anyway – for undergrads and a-level students, you rarely hear the word used in an actual paper. The type of ‘mutation’ would be used instead

So… Some genetic changes, are not mutation, Some genetic changes are not evolutionary, some evolutionary changes are not mutations. Are all evolutionary changes due to genetic change?

Indirectly, yes even a meme is dependent on genes

And bone cancer in children?

Now, I don’t know the answer to that, but a few of the religious types offered an answer when Stephen Fry asked the same question. Some suggest it is a false question, based in the here and now, which is not the theist perspective.

Indirectly, yes even a meme is dependent on genes

But genetic change?

poah – Member
But why can’t a God or omnipotent power have created the science and the physics of the universe?

Maybe 1000’s of years ago when people were ignorant and knew jack shit about physics, biology and chemistry. The idea that a god(s) exists is delusional.

Ok, not really sure where that type of defensive comment came from but such is the nature of forums.

You consider me ignorant compared to you? ok, I’m fine with that. I’ll take ignorance over arrogance.

The idea that you can’t accept an opinion that is contrary to your own is “interesting” nothing more. It arguably erodes your assertions and opinions but I’ll let others be the judge of that. To me it’s just more an indication of persona than of opinion.

Your opinion, for that’s all it is Poah, is no more considered or valid than mine or anyone else’s in this thread for that matter.

All of the above said, if you are just out to attempt to try and antagonise, well ok… Just a shame you are so disinterested in a topic which is actually fascinating because people’s views and opinions do vary so much on it.

Well except that his opinion is driven be considered and ordered observations of the world around him. Whereas yours is based on superstition, smart people abandoned that 100’s of years ago.

An opinion is not evidence.

Amazing how this needs to be repetitively pointed out…

“Dragons because, you know, faith.”

So… Some genetic changes, are not mutation

yes, you get epigenetic changes.

theocb – Member

Where did they come from? We could skip to the end but I’m sure you will keep dragging this out..

from the big bang. what caused the big bang or what happened before is beyond me and other people at the moment but it would be an argument of ignorance to say a deity.

For those who have a genuine interest in learning what others think or believe when it comes to theology, this radio show often has very good, considered and rounded discussions or debates.
Unbelievable?

Mostly it will have experts from either side of a position discussing or sharing their opinion or beliefs, not necessarily to point score, though that does happen on hot subjects, but to try and learn why others think the way they do.
It’s been going for over 10 years so there should be something for most people.

Ok, not really sure where that type of defensive comment came from but such is the nature of forums.

You consider me ignorant compared to you? ok, I’m fine with that. I’ll take ignorance over arrogance.

The idea that you can’t accept an opinion that is contrary to your own is “interesting” nothing more. It arguably erodes your assertions and opinions but I’ll let others be the judge of that. To me it’s just more an indication of persona than of opinion.

Your opinion, for that’s all it is Poah, is no more considered or valid than mine or anyone else’s in this thread for that matter.

All of the above said, if you are just out to attempt to try and antagonise, well ok… Just a shame you are so disinterested in a topic which is actually fascinating because people’s views and opinions do vary so much on it.

didn’t really think I’d have to explain my comment but anyway

you are ignorant of probably a lot of things just like me and everyone else. 500 years ago we were ignorant of DNA, viruses, bacteria, electricity, nuclear power, etc etc etc So when early man who knew very little about anything, using a deity to explain things was an easy concept to understand.

This is not my opinion, this is fact. opinions are great, they ensure discussion but opinions based on ignorance, stupidity and insanity are not as justified or valid as those based on facts. It is not arrogance to say that.

There is not even one fact to suggest the universe was created by a deity.

“But it’s all just so, you know, wonderful. It’s all just so, you know, beautiful.”

Hello birds, hello sky, hello clouds, hello necrotic fasciitis.

yes, you get epigenetic changes.

And these are heritable, reversible adaptations?

5plusn8 – Member
Well except that his opinion is driven be considered and ordered observations of the world around him. Whereas yours is based on superstition, smart people abandoned that 100’s of years ago.

It would be good if you actually went back and read my posts. There’s only been a few of them in this thread. Only over the last few hours too.

Could you then come back to where I am alluding to superstition?

Every comment I have made has only one single foundation. That I have an open mind.

However your blind leap to defend another poster simply as he shares your opinions is again more a testament about you than the subject you profess to be so well versed in.

Again, arrogance is no substitute for discussion.

In every post I made earlier I went out of my way to make sure others knew I neither wished to, or had a need to, convince others of my view point.

That’s what’s so strange in a way. Two people that profess to be so enlightened are also so determined to try to suppress any opinion or view point they disagree with.

Is the irony lost on you?

5plusn8,I take it you think I am religious from the wording of your post. Again, you might find it interesting to actually read what I posted before you comment.

And these are heritable, reversible adaptations?

you mean you didn’t google it ha ha ha ha

Funny that this come just after Tom commented on the sense of Poopscoop

you mean you didn’t google it ha ha ha ha

I did but I thought I would ask a microbiologist to check my understanding was correct

Every comment I have made has only one single foundation. That I have an open mind.

However your blind leap to defend another poster simply as he shares your opinions is again more a testament about you than the subject you profess to be so well versed in.

Again, arrogance is no substitute for discussion.

I have an open mind, just show me facts.

point out how my posts are arrogant?

I did but I thought I would ask a microbiologist to check my understanding was correct

anyone on here a microbiologist that can answer it for you lol

Facts are really hard to come by, data is more abundant

Be careful you don’t open your mind so much that your brains fall out.

The universe as we know it and as future scientific developments will further allow us to see it, is the very paradigm of awesome, AFAIK.

There’s absolutely no need to shoe-horn in some petty little human-generated god concept.

“Not only is the universe queerer than we think, it’s queerer than we can think…”

Bless, the people on here that are so sure, so utterly unshakable in their opinions and “facts” are the ones that seem the most defensive. Just why is that?

Amusingly also the most likely to resort to school yard humour in defence of their viewpoints.

Amongst all the ranting and self suredness it’s just a shame that the last few posters seem unable to read further than the first paragraph of a post. Hardly a great example of the scientific method.

Mr Woppit – Member
Be careful you don’t open your mind so much that your brains fall out.

You must be so proud bless your little cottons.

Again and regrettably having to respond in a tone you might grasp in reply toyour comment above:

No chance of your brain doing that…For two very evident reasons.

On that note, School times over. For me anyway.

It’s been… such a joy.

roper – Member
For those who have a genuine interest in learning what others think or believe when it comes to theology, this radio show often has very good, considered and rounded discussions or debates.
Unbelievable?
Mostly it will have experts from either side of a position discussing or sharing their opinion or beliefs, not necessarily to point score, though that does happen on hot subjects, but to try and learn why others think the way they do.
It’s been going for over 10 years so there should be something for most people.

Sorry for not replying earlier roper. Got momentarily distracted.

Will check that out, sounds interesting. Thank you for the heads up!

An example such as bone cancer in children is easy enough to explain.

A god created everything but does not have full control of what happened to it after that. If you kept control of something you would have quite the task. Controlling all genes, controlling the worlds weather systems etc,. to ensure nothing bad could ever happen anywhere. And then if you didn’t let people die you would somehow have to stop new ones being created.

Looking at it that way you can start to see how even God would not be able to manage that.

kerley – Member
An example such as bone cancer in children is easy enough to explain.
A god created everything but does not have full control of what happened to it after that. If you kept control of something you would have quite the task. Controlling all genes, controlling the worlds weather systems etc,. to ensure nothing bad could ever happen anywhere. And then if you didn’t let people die you would somehow have to stop new ones being created.
Looking at it that way you can start to see how even God would not be able to manage that.

I have trouble reconciling myself to that to be honest though I do see the uncomfortable logic in what you say.

However, as I said last night, it’s being in a position to see some of the world’s suffering that makes me ill at ease to reconcile myself with an omnipotent being/God that can allow it.

If such an entity exists I think it more likely that it simply has no comprehension of a morality as we see it. That’s why I find it hard to subscribe to any classical convention of religion.

Again, don’t mean to ride roughshod over anyone’s beliefs as I say that. It’s just his I attempt to rationalise things like this.

OK I cycled through the night. Well, 45 mins of it. Whilst clattering down a silent old cart-track under starlight I heard the distinctive ‘to-WHOOoo?’ of an unseen tawny owl close by.

‘Who?’ Said I?

‘To … who, who, who, Who’? Said the owl.

And then it struck me. Which came first – the bird, or the word? A word (to be uttered) requires a ‘who’. So if the word came first, then so it follows that a ‘who’ was before the word.

‘Which/what who?’ asked I.

‘Whoooooooooo?’ said the owl.

At which point I guessed that the truth might well lie within this wood, but that the mystery surely lay in words? And words lie in books. Yet which books? . Maybe Paulo Coehlo or St John? Maybe Milton or Shelley? Maybe Oprah or Chopra? Hawking or Dawkin? Maybe chicken soup has already been ordered and served for my soul, so that all I need do is to take the simple decision to sit and eat? Ideally before it goes cold? And the ‘proof’ shall be in the tasting?

Or maybe our minds plays tricks? Maybe these words, these endless questions are mere clutter. Maybe the bird is before the word?

And then I think about my marriage, my relationships, friends etc. How verbal communication is so often a problematic feature in my/our lives. I try and imagine howt a week of marriage without words would be like? To my mind it seems as if it would be honest and true. Excoriatingly so. Why do we never do this? It would feel ‘silly’ to be so open? To be laid so bare without words behind which to hide.

And the internet. An overflowing of words. Like rain in tissue cups. An endless argument falling through a hole in our minds. An ego-chamber. Words without vibration. Far from Om.

‘Auuuuuhmmmmmmmmmmm(?)’ – Said I.

The owl was now silent. I moved on. Upwards. Nothing but the slow sound of sand and gravel crunching and pinging off the tyres. The sense of a heavy, hanging dew in the meadow below. The ‘scent’ of silence. Still no voice. Still: No voice.

Thanks for that Malvern. I like that on many levels.

Really ..wow!
Got me thinking if it really was an owl ..or perhaps you were mistaken and it was a cuckoo.. 😀

poah, woppit, 5plusn8

I believe I owe you guys an apology. I don’t think your posts deserved the tone of my replies. I made some unfair assumptions based as much on my own temperament as yours.

Above said genuinely.

Got me thinking if it really was an owl ..or perhaps you were mistaken and it was a cuckoo..

I think it’s best we’ll call it a typo. I made a lengthy typo 😆