Looking for advice please chaps especially if anyone here is in the trade?.

Needing to buy a couple of sets of VF gear (in the next four weeks) as having hired before we plan to do a fair bit more this summer (mainly Austria) so makes sense to buy, notwithstanding concerns of using unknown ‘hire’ gear in addition to all the usual caveats of VF gear/use…

As everyone knows you really, really don’t want to fall on a VF but if you do then it has to do the job.

So, interested to read of the new standards just coming into play EN 958 2016/17.

http://www.gearshack.co.uk/information-advice/new-via-ferrata-standards

The new via ferrata standard – what’s new

Basically tougher construction in certain areas with lower weight limit of 40kg vs 50kg.

Edelrid seem to have some good sets on the way https://www.edelrid.de/en/sports/via-ferrata-sets/cable-kit-50.html but anyone know if others are available now in the UK?

Or what are your thoughts on sticking with the current offerings? Obviously there are some good deals on the current stock like these which was what I planned to go with:

https://www.alpinetrek.co.uk/edelrid-cable-kit-43-via-ferrata-set/?backlink=eyJ1cmwiOiJcL3ZpYS1mZXJyYXRhLXNldHNcLz9saXN0b3JkZXJieT0mbGlzdG9yZGVyPSNmMThmNmFjNmI0YTUxZGFlMGQ5ZDRlMzQzYTQ5ZTMxZCIsImhhc2giOiIzZTQwZjNlMjVlMzViODkwZDNiZjE3NmFhYzE1ZDAxYyJ9

using unknown ‘hire’ gear

You mean items that are daily and weekly checked by trained professionals? 😉

The new standard is a much gentler impact force – if you have the money, go for the newer ones IMO. Edelrid make good kit in my experience – ive had harnesses, helmets, slings, ropes and hardware from them before with no issues.

I’ve found the decathlon simond sets to work well. That said I have not fallen on it and I’m in the correct weight band for the old standard. I treat via as a situation where falling off my result in injury but that its unlikely I’ll die. Basically don’t fall off!

If you’re on original routes (rather than recent sport specific stuff) the biggest unknown is probably would the VF hold a fall rather than your arrester….

I always take a short rope and limited gear for protecting exposed bits where the WW1 infrastructure looks poor. Also essential if someone did take a fall as they’d be left dangling with no easy way back up. Shoe lace prussocks on fall arrester rope?

Also essential if someone did take a fall as they’d be left dangling with no easy way back up. Shoe lace prussocks on fall arrester rope?

One thing I always wondered about with VF – if you do take a fall, what happens next? The Y-cable is a one-shot deal is it not, once it’s used it’s used?

You mean items that are daily and weekly checked by trained professionals?

I have a photo of an example of such gear (from one of the Go Ape centres) – I’ll see if I can dig it out.

Go Ape centres

trained professionals

Oxymoron time.

‘The Y-cable is a one-shot deal is it not, once it’s used it’s used?‘

Yes – As far as I’m aware. I’ve used the resettable Petzl ones in the past, but these seem to have been withdrawn.

Looking at the new specifications/standards I don’t see any need to replace your kit if you are smack in the middle of average. Either way if you are serious about doing VFs then always take a 25 metre length of climbing rope and some locking krabs with you. At least you’ll then be able to ‘pitch’ the rest of the route after your VF ‘ripper’ has unstitched. 😆

One thing I always wondered about with VF – if you do take a fall, what happens next? The Y-cable is a one-shot deal is it not, once it’s used it’s used?

Mine are all old school knuckle duster style ones where you can reload them by loosening the rope in the device.

As for recovering, assuming your hip hasn’t broken and your internal organs haven’t ruptured, you use the prussocks off your harness to climb back up the fall arrestor rope, or your partner drops you the rope they’ve been carrying and sorts out a pulley and pulls you up ‘glacier rescue style’ (assuming you’ve been carrying all the necessary self rescue kit).

If none of that makes sense, then you probably should hire a guide to take you on VF!

This talk of what happens if you fall on a VF and “rip the stitching” what do you do next is a bit OTT.

Do you take a spare car with you on every journey just in case you’re in a crash and your motor is written off?

Most vf I’ve done I wouldn’t need to worry about carrying on with the route, my partner would be talking with the helicopter pilot looking for a landing spot!

Sorry chaps – always the fear with a VF topic that it goes a bit OT and gets a bit contentious.

I’m still unsure (and people in retail I have talked to are none the wiser) but does the new standard actually help average weight people (75kg = me) in the middle of the range?

Is the arrest force actually less severe?

I do need the newer set for my son though who is just under the current 50kg limit – not that this ever bothers any hire companies…

Regarding ropes etc – again this seems a woolly subject. Can the experts elaborate on what exactly should be taken.

The VF we have done in Austria were in tip top condition but I know this is not always the case.

Another question – it’s also advised to take a sling to rest on and not to use the VF slings for this – what is the best way to put this together – a short sling (20cm) and a screwgate Carabiner?

This talk of what happens if you fall on a VF and “rip the stitching” what do you do next is a bit OTT.

Do you take a spare car with you on every journey just in case you’re in a crash and your motor is written off?

How is it OTT? It was a genuine question: if you’ve spent your lanyard, how do you safely get to safety without another one? Seems the answer is a trad belay.

And what a ridiculous analogy, do you spend much time driving up vertical rock faces?

If you climb anything other than top roped single pitch, then anyone in the trade will tell you that you should consider what you might do if you or your partner had an accident. Obviously one possibility is panic and call 999. The other is learn self rescue (taught on MIA) and available as a basic course from most outdoor centres.

If you’re not comfortable rescuing yourself or a partner hanging under an overhang on a traverse on a multi-pitch route, should you really be climbing there, esp if it is remote? Escaping the system and basic self rescue should be known by anyone doing remote climbing.

A lot of the original WW1 VF is very remote, I’ve spent a whole day on sections and not seen another climber. The really famous routes e.g. Monte Cristallo will be teaming with people in summer, so perhaps you could rely on them to help you? Can’t recall if mobile phones worked, but I bet whole sections don’t have coverage.

IMO it’s no different to off piste skiing, you need to carry the right kit and learn how to read snow conditions…

Can the experts elaborate on what exactly should be taken.

It depends on what type of VF you are doing.

Sport stuff eg loads in France nr Briancon is properly maintained, managed and swept at closing time. You used not to be able to hire kit, so you’d need your own:

– Helmet
– Gloves (metal is rough and can have splinters)
– Harness
– Fall arrest device
– Suitable footwear

I also always carry:
– a short rope eg 20m
– prussocks on my harness
– 2/3 slings and screwgates

That way I can:
– offer someone else a rope and protect them if they have a panic attack (not uncommon)
– haul someone up using a basic pulley arrangement (if they fall)
– prussock myself assuming I’m able to

If I’m doing remote WW1 stuff then I’d pack for a full mountain day e.g.
– waterproofs
– headtorch (some routes have long tunnels and also if you get lost / late back)
– food
– more gear, some nuts, more slings etc, full half rope, belay device (alp plate etc)
– etc

For resting I’d have a sling already threaded through my harness with a screwgate attached, which I can use to clip into a ladder run and hang off.

If you’re not comfortable rescuing yourself or a partner hanging under an overhang on a traverse on a multi-pitch route, should you really be climbing there

Very good point, well said.

I’ve practised rope rescue (prusik loops and slings and all that) in a safe environment just for something different to do on a lazy afternoon at a wall. I’m not convinced I’d have the wherewithal to do it reliably halfway up a mountain without a lot more practice, I found it harder than I expected and bloody knackering.

The only VF-ing I’ve done is a nice (relatively) safe guided tour in that slate quarry up in the lakes, so I pretty much deferred duty of care to the guides and did as I was told.

I’ve practised rope rescue (prusik loops and slings and all that) just for something different to do on a lazy afternoon. I’m not convinced I’d have the wherewithal to do it reliably halfway up a mountain without a lot more practice, I found it harder than I expected and bloody knackering.

I spent three days just doing that at Tramadog with Plas-y-Brenin many years ago. Very useful stuff and completely changed how I set up belays. Now everything I do is based around escaping the system and making sure I can do so as easily and quickly as possible. So if something does happen, I don’t have a 90kg climbing partner hanging off my harness squeezing the life out of me as a starting point!

And what a ridiculous analogy, do you spend much time driving up vertical rock faces?

I think the point of the analogy was that if you take a fall and trigger the lanyard (note they won’t trigger on a small slip – it needs to be a proper factor 2 + fall) then you’ll likely have some kind of injury at least and are unlikely to be able to make your way off the mountain without assistance. Most of the VF i’ve been on (france and italy) would have very very serious consequences – not least if the lanyards deploy, you’d probably still hit a substantial ledge from several meters up. The lanyards aren’t there to let you have another go – they’re to stop you dying, or rolling off the side of the ledge you’ve just broken your leg on. The forces involved are VF falls can be much much greater than the worse fall you can have in a trad climbing environment (which is factor 2).

would have very very serious consequences

Even if that was the case, having self rescue kit means you can get your buddy back on the route and stabilise them (as best as) rather than leaving them bleeding, hanging upside down for several hours whilst you go off trying to get mobile phone reception and then wait for a chopper to come…..

Either way, you really should carry self rescue kit and know how to use it.

I spent three days just doing that at Tramadog with Plas-y-Brenin many years ago.

Cool. I quite fancy doing something similar, it’s not something I’ve ever done seriously because I’ve never been in a position where I might need it. When climbing outdoors I’ve always been with more experienced climbers, and I’ve never done any multi-pitch or serious exposure stuff.

note they won’t trigger on a small slip – it needs to be a proper factor 2 + fall

Ah, that was the detail I was missing, I didn’t know that. Though thinking about it, it makes perfect sense.

note they won’t trigger on a small slip – it needs to be a proper factor 2 + fall

The older type will absorb a small fall by just pulling some rope through the knuckle duster…

Although I suspect the newer type are far superior…

Cool. I quite fancy doing something similar,

Oddly, neither PyB or Glenmore Lodge seem to offer the course I did anymore…

GL just do a basic 1 day:

Even if that was the case, having self rescue kit means you can get your buddy back on the route and stabilise them (as best as) rather than leaving them bleeding, hanging upside down for several hours whilst you go off trying to get mobile phone reception and then wait for a chopper to come…..

Either way, you really should carry self rescue kit and know how to use it.

Fair point and totally agree. I’d always have prussiks some tat, slings etc with me. Probably wouldn’t have a full on rope with me but id be able to rescue them in most situations. Someone being suspended on an overhang with no way of getting to them would be rare. Normally they’d be a crumpled heap on a ledge.

As long as you’re confident in how to use that rescue kit, of course. If not, all the shiny alu and neatly tied prussics in the world won’t help. (Not meant to be aimed at any individual btw, just a general ‘you’ )
Having trained quite a bit in rescue scenarios as part of my work in industrial roped access I can vouch for how stressful it can be in a nice ‘safe’ training venue, let alone stuck on a cliff somewhere with your oppo bleeding & unconscious at the end of a deployed tear out pack 2m below his anchor point.
Don’t underestimate how hard it can be to recover someone below you by lifting them up.
I carry a small 16:1 haul system made up of 2 pulley blocks from a chandlers plus 20m of 8mm cord, along with a Petzl Croll & 2 crabs. Fits in a large chalk bag & makes it far easier to haul up any weight plus it can be locked off if needs be.
Troll used to sell a similar setup pre made & ready to go.
All that said though, much like with climbing if you stopped to analyse every risk you’d probably never do it! Only you can rationalise what you want/need to do to feel safe.
Leisure & industry have very different needs even if some do overlap but it leads me to be quite overzealous about rescue & protection.

Thanks all, very useful info. 🙂

Don’t underestimate how hard it can be to recover someone below you by lifting them up.

Or in Hollywood, “don’t worry, I’ve got you!” whilst grabbing their wrist in one hand. And for bonus yuks, hanging on something themselves with the other.

Oh …. I can make it look like that Cougar…
Or like an accident….
Ask Mattbee 😀