Been using the ones at the gym and gradualy built up the resistance and time untill im doing about 30 min, with the resistance at 4-5 ish depending on how energetic im feeling. Burning arround 1200-1300cal/hour and doing 34 s/m according to the computer.

Thing is, normaly I'd accept that maybe some people are just better at something than me, but how come other people can sit on them, wack the resistance right up, and go at a faster tempo. Had a cheeky look at their computer when they got off and they'd only been burning 750cal/hour.

Am I;
a)doing it right and doing more work per stroke? or…….
b)doing it wrong and being incredibly inefficient?

Hard to explain, but it's about how hard you pull not how quickly, and maintaining the pressure throughout the whole stroke. Use the speed function (minutes/500m) to see how it varies, try about 20 strokes a minute but pulling as hard as you can and see how much 'quicker' you go.

Feel free to post up pics for the A & A thread, got to be wearing lycra though 😉

I find it's all to do with the length of your stroke, so to speak!

As i have very long arms and legs whenever i use a rower i find that i do less strokes per minute than the people around me but am still going noticeably faster if i look at the computer read out.

Just look at the Boat race on TV to see that the average height for a good rower seems to be around 6'4"/6'5".

I see small people rowing like a madman but they don't seem to be going very far on the readout.

I often wished i'd gotten into rowing when i lived in london and used to cycle past all the rowing clubs on the Thames. It's hard work though and i usually only play at it in the gym and do quick 1000m blasts which take me around 3mins 20secs on a average go. I'm about ready to fall off the machine by the time i finish that though.

Yes, and spent far more hours on ergs than I care to remember.

The thing that jumps out is 34 strokes/min (called rating) for 30 mins. If I did that I'd be pretty done in even when I was training. 4-5 resistance is about right though and what most rowers use (check out how to measure the drag setting on the concept 2 link below – you probably want approx 130 to 135 IIRC)

The important thing when rowing (and doing other things!) is length of stroke. If you set it to 10 and then take short stabby strokes then you can rate higher but you won't go fast. Watch proper rowers (eg not people who've picked up bad technique on rowing machines and you'll see that they take very long strokes – the handle typically reaches to within 10cm of as far forwards as it'll go (assuming Concept 2 machine) and then goes all the way back to the body – or ideally just missing it). Basically you're looking for shins vertical when you're at full leg compression. If you struggle to get to that, set the feet lower.

The second key thing is to accelerate – most people tend to try and do all the work at the start of the stroke but the important thing is speed – try and maintain accelleration through the stroke and make sure that you use legs then body then arms (with some overlap) rather than yanking with arms/back at the start of the stroke like most people do…

Info here:

http://www.concept2.co.uk/guide/guide.php?article=technique

and illustrated here:
http://www.concept2.co.uk/guide/guide.php?article=technique_pictures

Oh and stop measuring calories as it's pretty meaningless really – measure your score in metres and you'll then be able to compare to various other guides, etc. Rowers typically use the speed/500m – eg 1:50

Hope that helps – feel free to ask anything else.

C_G,

I would, but last time i posted on A&A it was pulled for not depicting a 40something fattie on some carbon bling bike in a black rapha top.

Guess someone was feeling inadequate enough to report it, although admitedly i wasn't wearing much.

Oh and stop measuring calories as it's pretty meaningless really – measure your score in metres and you'll then be able to compare to various other guides, etc. Rowers typically use the speed/500m – eg 1:50
agreed entirely. ignore the calories bit. Concentrate on good form.

I used to do a bit of rowing on the C2s indoors. I'm 5'6" and struggled to compete with the bigger guys (more through lack of training).

Rowings complex when you get into it, though. Best not to concentrate on upping the resistance – its the drag factor you need to get right. On newer C2's you can find it through the menu, on older ones you have to press two buttons together (forget which) but you want the drag to be about 140, which apparently is realistic. This is usually about 4 – 6 on the resistance scale.

Then, as others say, concentrate on getting maximum length out of your stroke. You should take twice as long on the return stroke (ie bending your knees) as you do to pull and maintain a smooth action and consistent humm of the wheel, not jerking away at the cable.

And you probably know by now it hurts a lot, so just get used to pain!

Shame RudeBoy is still banned. He could row for England. Mind you. most of his rows ending up as slanging matches.

And you probably know by now it hurts a lot, so just get used to pain!
aye. couple of months of getting to like the suffering and you'll be doing erg marathons. [still mentally scarred from those]

I've heard from a serious rower that wacking the resistance right up does your back no favours, so maybe avoid doing this.

For a regular fit bloke who doesn't row, something like 20 mins for 5 k would be a decent benchmark (2 min split). A rower would go miles faster, but that's a reasonable starting point for an active guy. If you're a fit cyclist and can't hit this then there's somthing amiss with technique.

BTW MrTall – 3:20 for 1k isn't bad for a non-rower.

Of course, for a rower, 6:20 for 2k is viewed as the cutoff for a serious heavy weight rower but technique counts for a lot 😉

<goes to dig out old rowing photos for A&A thread 😉 >

i tought myself what i tought was good technique for the C2 site, originaly I was going too far forewards (shins way past vertical) and leaning too far back. Now its more like what they say, but theres a bit of a dead spot in the middle im struggling to remove, getting there, but my stroke still has a big bump (legs), a dip then my arms, might try upping the resistance and do some intervals to ballance the muscles out a bit as i suspect its just because my legs are stronger rather than my back/hamstrings being weaker.

Currently doing in 30min;
7500-8000m (about 1:50 for 500m)
500-600 calories
34 s/m
level 4-5 (6 for intervals)

doing that once or twice a week, using the cross trainers to warm up/cool down for 15 min before and after.

Also swimming for 45min non stop with intervals 3 times a week.

Doing weights and strength training (upper body and core only) twice a week.

Got too many niggling little injuries to concentrate on one thing, hence the scattergun approach to fitness.

I'd suggest dropping the resistance if anything – it's always a good test of technique – if you can pull a half passable score at setting 1 then you're moving well.

Try rowing with your feet out of the straps – it's perfectly possible to rate into the high 20s if you've got good acceleration and a smooth stroke. It'll slow you down to start but it'll pay back big time in the long run.

If you're seeing big bumps it suggests that you're trying to work too hard – again, think about speed rather than effort – most likely, you're opening up the back/using your arms at the start of the stoke meaning that you've got nothing left later on, causing the dead spots.

And you definitely need to drop your rating.

International heavyweight oarsmen would typically be rating about 34-36 for a 2k test – eg under 6 minutes. Your stokes must be very stabby and ineffective to be doing 1:50 while rating 34 and to be able to maintain it for that long.

Have a look on youtube, there's bound to be some videos of decent oarsmen doing ergs (eg not doing 2k tests) where they're rating in the low 20s – you'll see how the power phase is smooth, long and accelerated while the recovery (the bit where you're not working) is slower and relaxed.

Cheers clubber, so set the resistance to 1, and do it out of the straps. I'll report back tommorow morning, got a good 3 hour Gym session planned to keep me away from the pub tonight.

No, probably not 1 and feet out of the straps to start – that's a bit advanced! 🙂

I'd suggest keeping your normal resistance and rowing with no straps. Then just to see what it's like for a couple of mins, try at setting 1 (with feet in)

I was a rower "back in the day". Clubber has said it all already really. I used to set the ergo to "3" on the resistance and most people I rowed with set it there or thereabouts. If you are just training (rather than going for a OB) you should aim to rate between 18 and 22 strokes per minute.

Holding 1:50 (mins for 500m) for 30mins is good going. Just try to do that at rating ~20

Personally, you couldn't pay me to sit on a ergo any more but then I was doing 90 mins on them twice a week for 3 years when I rowed in the Boat Race, which is enough for one lifetime.

Clubber – where did you row?

London RC… you?

Links above for concept 2 are good. Resistance varies, as machines can get clogged up with dust, so there are 2 buttons to press that display resistance "drag factor". Although I just looked at newer PM3 and PM4 monitors, don't know how you display the resistance on those. Typically around 130 was what was always used.

The mistake most gymists (including the gym "instructors") make is to shoot forward during the "recovery" part of the stroke, giving a high stroke rate, but no useful effort.

accelerating throughout the stroke is good advice – you can hear when someone's going well on a C2, the tone rises steadily though the pull

hooking the foot straps out of the way is good gen too – you shouldn't be hauling yourself back up the slide with your feet using all your might!

a nice controlled recovery (2:1) will set you up well and not kill power. arms, back, legs in that order up the slide

i could even do all this myself once upon a time, now i'd be pretty poor i expect – have long since used up my lifetime ergo ration!

Clubber – I rowed at school and then at Cambridge. Gave up the summer after graduating as I didn't fancy balancing work and rowing commitments and the Olympics were 3 years away which was just too long to keep going for.

So in summary,

do it without the straps to slow down the recovery

keep the resistance about the same, lower untill technique improves (or very low if I fancy getting really good)

20 s/m sounds very very slow (30 feels slow!) guess its just because thats when im used to.

Sounds like a reasonable plan. Ideally you should get a little bit of coaching from someone who knows what they are doing. Where are you?

Reading, I'm not doing this 'seriously' it's just something to help buld fitness as my knee's too borked for cycling every day.

The company sponsors a rowing team once a year, might go for that next year if my knee is upto it by then and get some free coaching. Not 100% sure about the 5am atarts though!

do it without the straps to slow down the recovery

sort of but the idea is more that with the straps off, if your technique's poor (not enough acceleration), your feet will come off the machine at the end of the stroke.

20s/m will feel very slow if you've got used to 30+ but you'll get used it soon enough. You're really looking for rowing to be a series of flowing strokes with a rest in between the power phase rather than a non-stop banging up and down (there may be other parallels to be drawn here… 😉 )

Oh and as for 5am starts, that's only if you go out before work and even then it's typically 6am on the water..

ahh, now i understand

i guess 20s/m is probably about the pace i'm at now, just with a longer recovery (im definaltey guilty of pulling myself back quickly – fnar fnar)

Before you do any long sessions make sure that you core strength is up to scratch. A lot of poeople I've rowed with have had back problems due to lack of core stability, try to work some weights & sit ups into your programme.

I rowed for a bit so feel I should chip in. Retired now though.

Feet out rowing is very tricky to make a useful exercise if you don't already have an ok technique. Even in reasonable novice rowers it either elads to snatching at the finish or falling off.

If it's a gym ley may have recent model D or model E Concept 2 rowing machines. These can give you a power/stroke graph, showing you the power curve through each stroke. Get it smooth and consistent. The shape depends on your build and legs/core/arms. If you're having a dip though the middle work on your core strength.

If you gym has it (or if you can ask for it) is a rowperfect or just sliders that fit under the C2 ergs. They allow the mahcine to sldie around underneath you, rather than just you moving over the top. Excellent at helping consustent strokes and smooth application of power. You'll feel it when you jerk.

Also go find a local rowing club. They may be able to offer you some tuition in the hope that they can recruit you!

thisisnotaspoon, if you're rowing 7500 or over in 30 minutes then you've got some (alot of!) fitness and your technique can't be all bad BUT, to do that at 34 spm does mean your going at pretty much race pace. You ought to be able to row at about the same pace (2min/500m or faster for 30 minutes) when at 18 to 20spm. Lots of really slow rating work forces you to row with good technique or you go nowhere. As said above set the drag factor to about 130 (fan set to about 3 on a clean machine, but a gym machine may well not be able to achieve 130 it could be so clogged) and row at 18 to 20 spm. Concentrate on a good hard pull followed by a long slow return. Think about quick hands, tight back and a sharp pull at the catch, follow with a hard and accelerating drive with the legs, then body as legs become straight, then finsh with a quick pull to the arms. Again quick hands to push the oar away and the return is a reverse of the pull so arms, then body then legs…but nice and slow. It will seem really odd at first rowing so slowly but it teaches that good techniqie of a **** hard pull! Oh and strapless rowing is very good at teaching the slow recovery. It is particularly good and honing technique at the end of the stroke and ensuring you get all your energy into the oar and don't waste any by using your straps to stop your body.

I havent sat on my concept 2 for 18 months but when fit I coud row 7.5K in under 29 minutes at 20spm. 2k pb was 6.58.9 done at 33spm (I struggle to rate fast! too much long slow training work) I am 5'10.5" and weighed 69kg. So definately not a good rower, but not truely awful either.

BTW MrTall – 3:20 for 1k isn't bad for a non-rower.

Of course, for a rower, 6:20 for 2k is viewed as the cutoff for a serious heavy weight rower but technique counts for a lot
So how would 6:40 for 2k rate for a LW? 😉 (not that I could do that right now, and nor am I a LW 😥 )

sharp pull at the catch

er… Absolutely not! Quick change in direction with the legs, facilitated by having your weight on your toes but absolutely no pulling!

Oh and 6:40 is prob about the equivalent

Sorry, bad choice of words, I didn't mean pull with the arms, I meant drive. the 'pull' is always legs first, then body then arms last. Use the big and powerful muscles first and the smaller but quicker ones (the arms) at the end when the boat is moving fastest. By sharp 'pull' I mean start the drive hard and firm but don't jerk, don't just 'dip your oar in gently like' 🙂 I've done only a little on water rowing but I know the C2 replicates it fairly well in feel. As soon as the blade enters the water at the catch you should have pressure on it to drive the boat forward. The quick hands/changes of direction at the catch and the end of the pull stroke are an area that good rowers work on lots. A fraction of a second shaved here leads to a higher rate for no extra effort.

aracer….very good indeed as I'm sure you know! World record for a lightweight is about 6 minutes dead for 2k I think

Try that on the water and you won't go very fast but you're right in that it works on the erg though it isn't great for your back plus encourages shoulder lift. Again, think speed not effort. Effort follows speed, not the other way round.

Oh and BTW, the setting/drag factor is all taken into account by the machine. So setting the fan wide open and rowing the same time is not a harder work out, it is just different. It's equivalent to cycling up a hill in an easy gear and spinning at 90 rpm or a bigger gear and grinding at 50 rpm, they feel very differnt but the power/work done is the same.

A high drag factor will tend to tire your arms out quicker. it also seems to compensate slightly for really bad technique.

Most of my sport is of the go hard or go home mentality, hence why i'll happily spend half an hour hurting on the C2's at 34s/m. Are you saying that 20s/m will be just as hard (on the same settings)?

The machines are new(ish) hence i know about the dip in the middle of my stroke. I did my uni research dissertation on strain gauges in sports equipment so i know a lot of rowing theory, in terms of what the graph should look like, but no idea how it translates into actualy rowing!

Is the drag factor something independant of the resistance dial? Or is it just a measure of how clogged the machine is?

No, 20 probably won't be as hard (at least not in the same way) so you might well go higher if you want to do flat out sessions but 34 is still too high. Maybe try dropping to 28 if you still want to go that hard but it's still worth learning to row at lower rates.

The drag factor measures how fast the fan slows down and therefore how hard it feels. The measurement is there because air temperature, how much the vents are clogged and so on will affect the drag for a given setting on the fan so by checking the drag factor you can calibrate it.