Well the description was a bit of a simplification on my part. With a closed throttle the issue is compressor surge caused by boost being trapped by the closed throttle.

Anyway, the main point being the new F1 engines with electrically assisted turbos won’t suffer from these problems and if the technology works and can be made reliable it may well finds it way into the car we drive.

they only thing unchanged on the cars will be the tyres.

So, they change everything else, apart from the bit that was broken?

So, they change everything else, apart from the bit that was broken?

You reckon molgrips has had the FIA looking at his passat?

Turbo lag won’t be a problem, look up MGUH and MGUK. I think that in short the waste heat energy from the turbo will be used to spin the compressor back up after the driver has been off throttle.

edit:

http://www.formula1blog.com/formula-1/how-f1s-energy-recovery-system-ers-will-work-in-2014/

richmtb

and if the technology works and can be made reliable it may well finds it way into the car we drive.

Probably not. It’s too expensive! I developed an electrical boosting system way back in 2004 for a company, They still haven’t managed to get it picked up by an OEM, despite its benefits. For a road car, cost is still king!

I am having a slow day at work so…

What does compressor surge/”stalling” due to a closed throttle have to do with “turbo lag”?

It has been my understading that there will not be any actual electrical assistance of the turbo to physically spin up the turbo. I believe heat energy will be harvested from the turbo unit but did not know that this system would be used to physically assist the turbine?

I think the electrical drive part of the system will be used to fill the hole in the powerband below the turbo’s boost threshold and between lag periods as well as being used on top of the engine power much like the new crop of hypercars.

The new fuel regs are a shame as it would have been cool to see a combusing throttle bypass system basically working like a jet turbine off the line and during closed throttle periods.

What does compressor surge/”stalling” due to a closed throttle have to do with “turbo lag”?

Well it stalls the turbo, stopping it spinning.

The turbo then has to spool back up to generate boost again.

It has been my understading that there will not be any actual electrical assistance of the turbo to physically spin up the turbo. I believe heat energy will be harvested from the turbo unit but did not know that this system would be used to physically assist the turbine?

As I understand physically spinning up the turbo is exactly what the new F1 system will be doing.

Retro83’s link said pretty much the same thing

Maxtorque – please tell us more about the system. Firstly – What was the main aim of the system you developed and what problem were you solving?

Retro83 – good link. It is a shame once F1 systems are devloped next year we will not get good stats of what they actually acheive. e.g. If they are going to drive the turbo shaft – what boost pressure can they acheive with the system on versus off etc. Real world data which we just don’t get to see. 🙁

I worry that next year will only create a larger divide to the teams with more money. I am guessing the engine will have charge cooling like an air to air intercooler. The packaging and effectiveness will come back down to aero and the mega buck teams will leap forward.

CAR magazine article

Looks like Audi are already working on electrically assisted turbos

So it might be nearer reality than we think

Easier to just leave this here Mr Plow!

http://www.integralp.com/technologies/boosting_technologies/SuperGen.htm

The problem that ^^ sort of tech has on road cars is that it occupies and uneasy middle ground. Std ICE’s are cheap to make, and relatively efficient these days, and technology like Eboosting only increases Fuel economy by a maximum of around 10%. However, it is expensive, particularly as normal cars only have 12v electrical systems (low power). if you spend just a little bit more, and go for a full hybrid or even EV tech, you get massively lower energy consumption. As such, road cars will quickly fall into two camps imo, std ICE ones with little tech, and Pure EV’s that can leverage all the benefits of electrification.

I believe compressor surge has little to no bearing on turbo lag and is an effect of the turbine side. The turbo as a system is stalled by the lack of exhaust energy at the turbine side. The heavily upset inlet flow at the compressor side creates stall due to the closed throttle. You could have an anti lag system running full bore energising the turbine and the compressor may still be stalling wildly as is often the case until the throttle is opened and the system flowing correctly with the compressor operating in the right area of the compressor map.

Retro83s link shows it is a possible strategy under the rules – this does not mean it will be an effective strategy. I would love to see the data and how they use it if they do and its real effectiveness as a system.

It is a shame that race cars are carrying battery weight etc around but then some very clever people will have a greater foresight than me so fingers crossed for something good. 🙂

Surge in this context is essentially flow going backwards through the compressor itself. This as you can imagine is bad* for the compressor and can stop it from working.

*bad in the is context can mean anything from slight damage to catastrophic failure.

Sorry to push this thread in a slight different direction. Does anyone know if the 3 manufactures of the powertrain unit supply the full system (engine, turbo and ERS) to the teams or will it be down to each team to develop parts of the system themselves?

I’m just thinking if one manufacturer produce something much better in terms of reliability than one of the other 2, it could be interesting to see some of the smaller teams pick up good points early in the season.

Or is it more likely that the new regulations will level the playing field and we’ll see the bigger teams dominate as they have this year?

RM.

Bigger teams will always dominate – the cars get significantly quicker through the season (or they need to to stay competitive) and that’s what the big teams’ big budgets help to drive along. It’s quite possible that we’ll see a smaller team do a particularly good job over the winter and perform better than expected but then slip back through the year.

As to the powertrains, I’m pretty sure they’re being built as complete packages – presumably due to the level of integration needed to make them work well together.

True, bad vibration as a result of stalling is not good for anything apart from a “cool” 😆 noise. I have no personal experience of a failed compressor unit due to off throttle stalling on car sized turbo chargers. On throttle compressor stall due to poor turbo/engine specification is much more likely to kill a unit imo.

much better design techniques like finite element analysis, CFD and new materials and manufacturing techniques

Adrian Newey still uses a board and pencils. Doesn’t seem to hamper his design skillz

Only for his initial concepts though… CFD etc are tools but need good ideas in the first place to be used on.

Adrian Newey may still use board and pencils, but what about the people who do the actual detail design, wind tunnel analysis, carbon fibre lay up design etc. he’s not a one man band and coordinates the design activity and defines its direction rather than actually sitting there designing parts. Also he doesn’t design engines.