BBC News

It’s becoming harder and harder for me to have a polarised political opinion when Leaders I don’t like, do things I agree with.

Interesting story, starts off very wishy washy, Anti-Semitism Bad, we knew that, it’s right, it’s proper etc. Then, even more interestingly, it will finally, draw a clean line between Anti-Semitism and being Anti-Israel which for me is even more important – because I don’t see Anti-Semitism in my day to day life, but I do see a rogue state with an appalling record on human rights and good PR screaming it every time someone dares criticise them.

100% agree. It’s good to have a very clear separation of the 2 things. It is important to be able to criticise both Israel and Palestine without brining religion into it.

Is this just not a clear attempt by the government to make Jeremy Corbyns head explode?

The highly inflammatory language in the press release could push a few more over the edge.

Prime Minister Theresa May will argue that a clear definition means anyone guilty of anti-Semitism in “essence, language or behaviour” will be “called out on it”.

binners – Member

Is this just not a clear attempt by the government to maek Jeremy Corbyns head explode?

Maybe, but oddly I think it confirms his stance as being anti-Israel rather than Anti-Semitic.

I can’t help thinking it’s a ‘flags for orphans’ act and buried in the small print is an NHS privatisation clause.

I’m waiting to hear what Ken Livingstone says about it…

Eric Pickles is quoted in that article, and I agree with him.

Bloody hell.

wwaswas – Member
I’m waiting to hear what Ken Livingstone says about it…

H H H H H H…..

no idea what Ken would say

Firstly, yes an internationally agreed definition is important and this definition is such. Secondly it’s absolutely legitimate to critise Israeli government policy as many Israelis themselves do.

However, P-Jay do you think it draws a clear line re: Israel ? I am not so sure. You cannot act against Jewish institutions, does that not by definition include Israel ? Genuine question and I think the definition could (imo should) be interpreted that way. To be against the entire state of Israel and it’s existance is imo anti-Semitic. I read the UK police already use such a definition by the way.

It is also interesting (and important) they have made it clear you can behave in an anti-Semitic way towards a non-Jewish person.

The BDS movement is generally accepted to be anti-Semitic in what it actually tries to do (eg try and ban a Jewish commedian from a Spanish festival)

You cannot act against Jewish institutions, does that not by definition include Israel ?

No it doesn’t. Unless you’re trying to make it exempt to prevent people criticising Israel.

To be against the entire state of Israel and it’s existance is imo anti-Semitic.

You can be against the state and what it is doing without denying it’s right to exist.

There is no way BDS is anti-Semitic.
In the absence of any political leadership from the west trying to reign in the worst excesses of Israeli criminal behaviour, efforts by organisations and individuals are all that is left.
BDS is a reaction against Israeli policy, not against Jewish people.

APF

Right Jammers! Lets get this cleared up once and for all! Are we allowed to criticise Spurs? 🙂

I still don’t know what ‘called out’ means.

terrahawk – Member
I still don’t know what ‘called out’ means.

It means saying Oi your a racist etc. when somebody is not just saying it’s locker room banter etc

It means saying Oi your a racist etc. when somebody is not just saying it’s locker room banter etc

is that it? scary stuff.

does that not by definition include Israel ?

I don’t think that’s the intent though, and it tends to be only elements of the Israeli Govt and it’s apologists that use this definition when faced with legitimate criticism of actions carried out by the Israeli state ( any govt which has acted the way the Israelis have would and should expect the same level if criticism)

Yeah it is, it stops things like what Jamby says above and it means there are less weasel words around what it means rather than taking action against the anti-semites and also being able to be 100% tough on the Israeli government over its appalling human rights and war crimes.

I still don’t know what ‘called out’ means.

made accountable for your crimes?

It defines anti-Semitism as “a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews.”

How is that clearer/an improvement? How long did it take to come up with something that remains vague and ill-defined? A couple of minutes?

http://howlongsincekenlivingstonementionedhitler.com

made accountable for your crimes?

not sure why they didn’t put that in the press release TBH.

However, P-Jay do you think it draws a clear line re: Israel ? I am not so sure. You cannot act against Jewish institutions, does that not by definition include Israel ? Genuine question and I think the definition could (imo should) be interpreted that way. To be against the entire state of Israel and it’s existance is imo anti-Semitic. I read the UK police already use such a definition by the way.

I’ll have to wait until the actual statement, but as you say it’s likely to be pretty close the UK Police version.

Will it draw a clear line? No chance, even if in the very unlikely event it’s made in the most blunt of terms, people will invariably interpret their own way or choose to interpret it in a way that suits their agenda.

As for Jewish Institutions and Israel, I don’t think it’s anti-Semitic to question the creation and support of Israel and no state should be above criticism – to claim criticise of a state is the same as being prejudice an individual because of their religion is frankly bonkers.

I think its trying to deal with a recent trend:
The surge in hate crimes and the bitter brexit debate where the media and many politicians used xenophobia as a tool to push their own agendas

The far right has tried (and succeeded?) to rebrand and legitimise itself as the Alt-Right, Breitbart for example being a magnet for anti-semites and isalmophobes.
Britain First etc have learnt to exploit things like Brexit and Remembrance Day as a way to increase their footprint accross social media.
The Daily Mail has excelled itself in recent years with its vileness, attacking millibands father or the Nazi style ‘Enemies of the People’ headlines.
The stream of death and rape threats Ginna Miller or even the high court judges have received, show that this is a real problem.

The death of Jo Cox should have been more of a wake up call

but am I right that this slightly better definition of anti-semitism is also part of the same legislation that is naming this far right group (that Thomas Mair was influenced by) as a terrorist organisation
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38286708

.To be against the entire state of Israel and it’s existance is imo anti-Semitic.

But surely it’s acceptable to criticise a country because of its policies?

Today I chose peppers from Spain over peppers from Israel…

Blimey, a political news story where I agree with everything that everyone says.

That might be a first.

It means saying Oy vey your a racist etc.

FTFY.

What that article doesnt say is anything about Israel. At all. It makes no distinction about what would be acceptable anti-Israeli criticism that wouldn’t be classed as antisemitism.

Does the IHRA definition itself cover that?

What that article doesnt say is anything about Israel. At all. It makes no distinction about what would be acceptable anti-Israeli criticism

Doesn’t need defining. Anything is acceptable as long as it doesn’t include hatred towards Israelis for being Jewish.

Racism against black people is still widespread, yet we don’t have this sort of issue when criticising, say, the DRC.

indeed. So in practice we will have to wait and see the establishment* stand up and defend clear anti-Israeli statements as NOT being antisemitic. That’s going to be fun….

* or whichever body is going to stand up and “police” this definition.

No binners it’s not, I am aware the FA don’t like us chanting “Yid Army” personally I think that’s an act of solidarity with the Yiddish people.

You can critise the polcies of the Israeli government, eg in West Bank or in Gaza. What you cannot do is delegitimise the state of Israel over those policies or deny it’s right to exist.

Listened to interviews on Sky from Pickles and a campaigner. Below is a link to a short explanatory document with some supporting examples (cannot paste them here for some reason)

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/sites/default/files/press_release_document_antisemitism.pdf

You cannot deligitimise Isreal – to me this clearly means you cannot identify as an anti-Zionist (as Eric Pickles says people use the word Zionist in place of Jew to disguise anti-Semitism)
You cannot compare Israel to Nazi Germany as an “apartheid state”
You cannot hold Jews responsible for the actions of the Israeli government

There is no way BDS is anti-Semitic

AFP in theory having an action group which seeks to put pressure on Isreal over it’s policies in say Gaza and the West Bank is legitimate. However in practice their actions are anti-Semitic, eg the example of the Jewish (American) Comedian or in trying to arrange a boycott of the Bataclan in Paris (btw it’s my clear view it was targetted by the terrorists as it’s a Jewish owned business and it was hosting an American band). Neither the commedian or the concert venue have anything to do with Israeli government policy in the West Bank, the action is clearly designed to target Jews as being responsible for what happens in Israel.

Also I’d happy to see an equivalent definition and Government action over Islamphobia

the definition of anti-semitism:

Antisemitism (also spelled anti-Semitism or anti-semitism) is hostility, prejudice, or discrimination against Jews.

last time i checked Judaism was a religion and not a race…but then the Israeli government have done a pretty good job of changing that definition by making sure that you cant be Israeli unless you’re Jewish therefore one cannot criticise Israel in any way with being accused of being anti Semitic.
and this ruling can now reinforce that…if its to prevent hate crime based on religious belief then i’m all for it but if its used as a defence to prevent political criticism then no i dont agree with it

Gonzy. Race and a religion. 20% of Israeli’s are not Jewish. You can become a citizen if you are not Jewish although this is not straightforward unless you have a Jewish parent or grandparent (then it’s very simple and the state will help you practically and financially)

Absolutely you can critise Israel. What you can’t do is hold them to a higher standard than other Middle East countries for example, ie campaign only against Israel but ignore all the sectarian violence and human rights abuses in the region.

You cannot deligitimise Isreal – to me this clearly means you cannot identify as an anti-Zionist (as Eric Pickles says people use the word Zionist in place of Jew to disguise anti-Semitism)

zionism is a capitalist movement perpetuated by the current Israeli government by which it carries out illegal land grabbing and illegal settlements at the detriment of the Palestinian people which it then dehumanises by sticking them behind a wall and restricts their movements by way of checkpoints
zionism has no connection to Judaism but those who are guilty of enforcing it hide behind the Jewish faith to prevent any criticism being aimed at them.

You cannot compare Israel to Nazi Germany as an “apartheid state”

Israel is an apartheid state in that it treats the Arab population like second class citizens and denies them the same rights and freedom of movement that is afforded to its Jewish citizens. even the South African government who all too well have experienced apartheid has said this is the case.

You cannot hold Jews responsible for the actions of the Israeli government[/quote]

the wording of that statement is deliberately wrong. what it should say is that you should be able to hold Israelis responsible for the actions of the Israeli government…but because you can only be Israeli if you are Jewish then it just so happens that any criticism is met with claims of anti semitism

Absolutely you can critise Israel. What you can’t do is hold them to a higher standard than other Middle East countries for example, ie campaign only against Israel but ignore all the sectarian violence and human rights abuses in the region.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/whataboutery

Ransos why not read the document I linked to. That’s exactly what this definition is about.

You can become a citizen if you are not Jewish although this is not straightforward unless you have a Jewish parent or grandparent

a great example of rules of apartheid rule…you can get citizenship easily if you are jewish but if youre not we will make it very hard for you just like we do when you move about on a daily basis such as going to work or school

Absolutely you can critise Israel. What you can’t do is hold them to a higher standard than other Middle East countries for example, ie campaign only against Israel but ignore all the sectarian violence and human rights abuses in the region.

not really true though in practice is it? you can criticise the saudis for their human rights abuses etc and not be accused of being islamophibic but soon as you criticise israel for its human rights abuses the antisemitic card comes flying out
the reason they are held to a higher standard is that the nation of israel was born out of land being taken from another country without its explicit consent and given to displaced jews of european descent, who then went about to forcibly gain autonomy on the back of acts of terrorism against the nations that granted them the land as a home, and who have since then continued to illegally steal land from the country they originally were given land from and settle upon it illegally whilst mistreating and brutalising the displaced inhabitants of the land they have illegally seized whilst having the full protection of the western governments such as the USA and UK…and a great deal of this aid is in the form of military aid and political support and protection from criticism….or have you conveniently forgotten that bit?

Gonzy with that line of argument and associated behaviour you could well end up in court.

Israeli Arabs and Christians have one of the best standards of living and human rights positions of any people in the Middle East. It is well known that homosexual Palestinians much prefer to live in Israel and do so if they can. Israelis pointed out this summer you are more welcome to win in a Burkini in Tel Aviv than in France.

Ransos why not read the document I linked to. That’s exactly what this definition is about.

No, this is about more jambafacts. As gonzy notes, you would have no problem with criticism of Saudi human rights abuses, presumably not feeling the need to reference Israeli activities in Gaza.

Well, that cuts both ways.