Link to Petition

After a 91 yr old was killed during a time trial, a petition has appeared on the Bucks Council website suggesting cyclists be banned from dual carriageways to stop them being run over…

Another petition has been started suggesting a better approach is to encourage driving with due care and attention, and better maintenance.

The link above leads to the second petition.

If you agree with the second petition, or if you disagree with the solution being a ban, please consider signing the linked petition.

It could send a considerate driving message to the council, along with re-inforcing the idea that just banning cyclists from all dual carriageways in Bucks may not be the correct solution…

Mods – If this has already been posted in another thread, please delete this!

I always thought that time trialers were bonkers riding down dual carriageways. Sure, they can, but why the hell would you want to?

Drivers should still respect them, and pass in the other lane. Though I did see a Range Rover pass a scooter in the same lane, with about 2 feet of space, on a dual carriageway the other day, so what hope do aerodynamic weirdos on tron bikes have, doing 48mph under the speed limit?

No I’m signing the first one. Bloody stupid, Inconsiderate and irrisponsible to be riding or racing a bike on a dual carriageway, no doubt in peak times like the morons do on the A3.

Depends on the dual carriage way surely, I used to ride a section past Clitheroe and it felt safer than riding through town, lots of space, good visibility, drivers passed you quickly.

They’re petitioning the wrong authority as the A41, like most dual carriageways, is maintained by Highways England.

Event organizers have a responsibility to consider the safety of their participants including the race route and marshaling, etc.

Likewise, the traffic authorities have some responsibility to consider safety and apply vehicle restrictions where appropriate, I am a bit surprised that relatively few dual carriageways are restricted to motor vehicles above 50cc, it probably has something to do with the required signage being a bit silly.

Sorry but so long as there are viable alternatives available or provided I actually think cyclists should be banned from nsl dual carriageways too. In point of fact cycling on a motorway hard shoulder is a safer activity and we accept being banned from motorways which have the same speed limit.

The thing is motorways were built for cars and other motorised vehicles, and so are restricted to them. Dual carriageways are for carriages which may or may not be motorised. In law a bike is a carriage, so you can ride on a dual carriageway legally. It has nothing to do with sensibleness or speed limit.

As above I am pretty sure some dual carriageways do have bans on cyclists and how’s about a bit of pragmatism rather than talking about out dated modes of transport and rights to the road – would you advocate taking a horse and cart onto an nsl dual carriageway?

I_did_dab – Member
The thing is motorways were built for cars and other motorised vehicles, and so are restricted to them. Dual carriageways are for carriages which may or may not be motorised.

I’m pretty sure the big section of dual carriageway near my house was built for motors, i mean it was originally plotted for Roman legions to march up and down, but you know, when they turned it into a DC about 30 years ago, I’m pretty confident “cars” were the intended traffic.

would you advocate taking a horse and cart onto an nsl dual carriageway?

I’ve seen some folks “travelling” with horse and cart on the A33 at rush hour on a weekday morning. Traffic carnage. So no I wouldn’t advocate it but it doesn’t stop people doing it.

Perhaps the simplest sign to put up is the standard “don’t be a dick” which covers the actions of anyone using the road on any form of transport.

Also can’t think of a single Nsl dual carriageway that was built to ease the congestion caused by all those non motorised carriages – got any examples?

The section of A41 dual carriageway in question is the Aston Clinton bypass so pretty much built for cars and lorries. Sadly a woman cyclist was also killed using the old road a few years back 🙁

A couple of years ago I had to go down to Cambridge with work. I went there and back via the A1. What was peculiar was that at some point on the way back there’s a sign “No bicycles beyond this point”. I wouldn’t have ridden any of it on a bike, it was risky enough in a car.

There’s also the old style dual carriageways with the kerb right next to the solid white line and the newer ones where there’s a 50cm or so gap and you’ve a bit of room.

Unless there’s really no alternative I avoid riding on dual carriageways, the speed differential is too great and drivers don’t allow for that. Plus there’s the usual contingent who think that time behind the wheel can be spent chatting on the phone, putting on makeup, etc.

It’s a bit like cars overtaking bikes at unsafe points, like blind bends and summits, just because you can doesn’t mean you should.

I think I’d sign a “no bikes on DC” petition if it also included “and no vehicles bigger than [large Transit van] on urban roads between 06:00-10:00 and 16:00-20:00”

rather than talking about out dated modes of transport and rights to the road –

Nobody hates cyclists like cyclists.

The problem is that quite often there was a perfectly usable country road, but then there were too many cars using it so they ‘upgraded’ it to a dual carriageway. And as said above

when they turned it into a DC about 30 years ago, I’m pretty confident “cars” were the intended traffic.

I.e. nobody considered that anyone not in a car would be using it. Unless they were really nice and built some lovely infrastructure

Wow! Some amazing comments about this considering this is meant to be a ‘cycling’ forum!

you can’t ban cycling on all dual carriageways. Some of them are the only way of getting from place a to place b (unlike motorways), and others are urban, low speed, and completely safe for cycling.

I’d never advocate cycling on a massive, fast dual carriageway. Not sure I’d ban it, but I see no value in leaving it allowed. If there are sensible, parallel routes, I see no problem in restricting all non-motorway traffic from a section of route

Problem is, if you ban cycling on dual carriageways because someone unfortunately died, where do you stop? Large A roads? Any narrow busy road? Any road where a cyclist has had an accident? **** it, just ban cycling, then there be no more cycling deaths. Happy now?

just ban cycling, then there be no more cycling deaths. Happy now

I imagine a few on here would be!

the A41, like most dual carriageways, is maintained by Highways England

The responsible authorities are Bucks and Herts County Councils. In reality common sense keeps cyclists off it even though there is a cycle lane, the exception being people using it for time trials who in my experience have very little common sense (yes, even if you are trying see how fast you can pedal a bicycle you’re still supposed to give way at roundabouts).

Christ on a bike in a car. Soon there’ll be no way of riding to Stockholm to attend the club AGM.

Still, probably for the best, eh?

Or maybe petition for all newly constructed (and resurfaced?) 60mph or NSL DCs to have a 1.5m bike lane in each direction separated from traffic by at least a big rumble strip

Ladders – Member
Wow! Some amazing comments about this considering this is meant to be a ‘cycling’ forum!

Cyclist can also be critical thinkers. As as cyclist I am against racing on dual carriage away. It’s nothing short of criminal IMO.

Actually, it gives cycling and cyclists a bad name.

That old boy has changed my opinion of racing on dual carriageways a little. That was a great way to go.

So I won’t be signing any petitions to ban it. Nor will I be signing any counter-petitions. If you die racing on dual carriageways it shouldn’t come as a surprise.

There’s a difference between cyclists using DCs for access and 60+ riders set off at 30s intervals effectively closing one lane of the road.

As as cyclist I am against racing on dual carriage away. It’s nothing short of criminal IMO.

.
Ooooh,
apart from the “racing” bit (assuming you mean TTs and not group races)
I’d expect DC to have better sight lines and surfaces and wider lanes than smaller roads so in some respects collisions should be less likely*

If it’s the speed differential that worries you then what do we do about NSL rural roads that are muddy, hedged and narrow ?

*(assuming even moderately attentive drivers – which is the pricipal problem IMO/E on DCs)

I imagine a club will be done for manslaughter eventually. It’s amazing it hasn’t happened already.

I imagine a club will be done for manslaughter eventually. It’s amazing it hasn’t happened already.

would require a “legal” acknowledgement that drivers routinely aren’t attentive, wouldn’t it?

Might have interesting consequences

you can’t ban cycling on all dual carriageways. Some of them are the only way of getting from place a to place b (unlike motorways), and others are urban, low speed, and completely safe for cycling.

This ^

It still surprises me when I see cyclists using the A34 (the nearest thing to a motorway without actually being a motorway)!

assuming even moderately attentive drivers – which is the pricipal problem IMO/E on DCs

On that particular road the problems are the roundabouts which are used as part of the race track (see above) and the oncoming junctions where the cycle lane expects you to cross the slip road at right-angles giving way to traffic but the time trialists go down the main carriageway leaving them between two lanes of 70mph traffic trying to merge. Not the same as a muddy NSL road at all.

would require a “legal” acknowledgement that drivers routinely aren’t attentive, wouldn’t it?
Might have interesting consequences

If you organised a race venue that had vehicles entering the circuit and doing 70mph during the event do you think your risk assessment would deem that OK?

Having lived in tring and aylesbury most of my life i’ve have cycled down the stretch of the A41 in question ONCE before due to it being the most direct route and being very short on time.
By the time i got to the other side 4 miles away my nerves were totally shredded and i hated every minute of it. The side bit past the whote line was covered in debris making it almost unrideable without puncturing forcing you pretty much into the road. cars where oblivious and flew past inches away.
Never again for me, i considered doing the time trial but found other routes nearby on less intense roads

I wouldn’t do it or encourage it, but banning bikes from dual carriageways could be the thin end of the wedge so I’m against ban.

If there was a temporary speed limit of 50 around them, then I’d be happier with doing it myself.

The only two people I know killed cycling were TTing on dual carriageways.

@Rio, This is the A41, right ?

I’ve had a streetview “drive” along parts of it and can’t see a bike lane at all. Which bit are we talking about ?
What I can see is that (at least on the bits I tried) sightlines are clear and there’d be very little excuse for joining traffic not to have seen a slower moving road user on the road to their right. Would it be safer in your view for a bike to try to cross the slipper at right angles, from a standing start, if traffic comes along there at 70mph?

Do we know how & where this TTer was killed ? (was he flouting rules at a roundabout or killed by joining traffic or simply hit from behind on the carriageway?)

I know of one death on a DC near Brighton soemwhere when a cyclist was hit “across” a slip road but not specifically aware of any others

Why not simply ban motors from the nearside lane and install some physical delineation to segregate non-motorised users? Would likely no longer be suitable for time-trialling, but otherwise I can see no drawbacks 🙂

If you organised a race venue that had vehicles entering the circuit and doing 70mph during the event do you think your risk assessment would deem that OK?

On the other hand, if your entrants were going to be doing something that they are at liberty to do at any time, but you now deem it dangerous, what does that say for all other times and wouldn’t it be incumbent on the authorities to manage that situation better ?

How do you feel about cyclists on roads with 60 limits where traffic can be a foot or two away from the cyclist, coming in the opposite direction with a closing speed of maybe 80?

… what about roads with 50 limits; 40; 30 ?

On the other hand, if your entrants were going to be doing something that they are at liberty to do at any time, but you now deem it dangerous, what does that say for all other times and wouldn’t it be incumbent on the authorities to manage that situation better ?

You can tell from this thread many serious cyclists think riding on dual carriageways is not something they would do. I would imagine pretty much all non-cyslists think it’s a dumb thing to do. So the *sensible solution* to “manage that situation better” is to ban bikes from dual carriageways.

So be careful what you ask for.

How do you feel about cyclists on roads with 60 limits where traffic can be a foot or two away from the cyclist, coming in the opposite direction with a closing speed of maybe 80?

It’s a lesser risk, and one I’m not very happy about. Road riding is beyond my comfort zone and I do very little of it and carefully plan routes when I do. If others want to take the risk then that’s fine. It is their risk to take.

All of this is about personal risk. That’s fine.

As soon as you organise events you are taking on the risk assessment. Public opinion, even amongst cyclists, is that riding on dual carriageways in unacceptably dangerous. The organisers are putting themselves in a perilous situation.

It’s a lesser risk

can you demonstrate/quantify that ?

Surely bikes are just one of the slow moving or stationary things that people could crash their cars into on a dual carriageway.

So if you’re going to ban bikes, don’t you need to ban all the other slow moving things (tractors, scooters etc..) and also provide a hard shoulder so they have somewhere to pull into should they break down?

can you demonstrate/quantify that ?

Probably not.

I wonder if any stats exist on cyclists using dual carriageways? It must close to zero.

You can tell from this thread many serious cyclists think riding on dual carriageways is not something they would do. I would imagine pretty much all non-cyslists think it’s a dumb thing to do. So the *sensible solution* to “manage that situation better” is to ban bikes from dual carriageways.

No.

The sensible solution is to provide a safe and effective alternative.

Most people think cycling on the road at all is something they don’t want to do, but the sensible solution is not (unless you’re an intergalactic doglobber) to ban all cycling, it’s to provide infrastructure where people feel willing and able to cycle.

Broadly speaking it’s worked for walking. We didn’t ban walking once motor traffic became popular, because that wasn’t the “sensible solution”. We invented pavements, which most people find satisfactory, and that means people still walk. Even though it’s still legal to walk in the carriageway. (Something which remains a necessity in rural areas.)