Terrorist had been turned back by Turkey on his way to fight with IS in Syria. France had imprisoned him and gave him an electronic tag and a curfew. Not a great success that.

From the Guardian / BFMTV a French news channel

According to BFMTV, one of the two killers, as yet unnamed, lived in Saint-Étienne-du-Rouvray and had tried to travel to fight in Syria in 2015 but had been sent back by Turkish border authorities and jailed in France. He was released in March this year despite the protests of prosecutors, had an electronic tag that allowed authorities to monitor his movements, and was ordered to live at his parents’ home – near the church in Saint-Etienne-du-Rouvray – where the court ordered he was only allowed out between 8.30am and 12.30pm.

Oooh, it must have been because they hurt his feelings by tagging him.

” you were effectively victim blaming”

Ooh, here we go. Victim blaming as well as being an ‘apologist’. Double whammy. 😆

You’re funny Tom.

Anyone see that unreported world piece on the fighting in tripoli?

now that is just plain tribalism..

I can’t remember the two factions.. sunni and one I’ve not heard of
One tribe drank and the women wore western dress, the others were a bit more strict but they had lived as neighbours for years and ate and socialised together..
Until the war in Syria broke out and they started arguing about… guess what?

Politics!!

Now they shoot each other from their houses across the street on the daily..
Gangs from each tribe venture into the other tribe’s territory to perform kneecappings..

they school their 5 year old children in how to strip and reassemble heavy machine guns and the kids can’t wait to be big enough to start shooting the neighbours..

And this is all taking place in the city centre amongst people who used to be friends and accept each other’s differences
It’s a good watch and offers a bit of a different insight into the motivation behind the aggression in Lebanon, Syria and beyond

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/jun/30/panderingtocrackpots

8)

From our very own Guardian – still think you’re guilty of the same low expectations.

It’s ok Tom; I won’t pander to you.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/jun/30/panderingtocrackpots

8)
How can you educate these bigots if you don’t talk to them? The point of posting the article is lost on me Tom.
8)

The point of posting the article is lost on me Tom.

Mostly as a wind up, if he doesn’t get that Asians and Blacks who have been through economic and social hardship and not had their brothers and sisters blow themselves up as a result – might find the economic and social argument insulting – then that is his problem.

Mostly as a wind up

That’d make sense.

http://www.spiked-online.com/spiked-review/article/generation-jihadi-olivier-roy-isis-daesh/18504#.V5eYMVUrKUk

Genuinely interesting piece to read, especially when you put this

Jihadis don’t hate their parents, but they reverse their relationship with their parents. The boy says to his mother, ‘I have the truth, and you don’t have the truth. I am your teacher.’ And, ‘I will die before you, to save you’. So it’s a reversal of the generational link.

In the context of the interview I posted earlier.

HUSSAIN NADIM: And it’s very hard for them to fit in. I mean, look at what the basic problem with the Muslim community over here is. The parents want to teach their children to stay away from certain evils of what they see as the Western society – stay away from alcohol, stay away from dating. That’s not what they see as a Muslim culture. So they – in order to attempt to that, the Muslim parents convert – teach these kids very ultra-conservative ideology of Islam. Now, when they grow up and they go to the universities or schools, that’s where they see their ideology and their teachings coming head-on with the Australian culture. And then they question their parents, that they were taught about this certain thing, but this is not how it is. And then they look for answers and the way they find their answers is not through parents. They look for the answers on social media and that social media has a monopoly of the religious radicals as well.

I know a muslim who got threw in the river taff by NF when he was 12. Successful in his chosen field, loves cycling plus odd beer.

Thinking out loud here, this is quite interesting…..

They may have a Muslim background, or it could be a choice, like the converts who chose Islam because it’s the ideology of contestation today in the world. What is specific is that radical Islamism is the only supranational universal militant ideology on the market. If you protest in another framework, what do you have? You have the individual nihilist revolt: suicide, Colombine, overdose. ‘No future’, but there is no need to mobilise. Or you have Podemos in Spain or the Arab Spring. What is interesting about protest movements like Podemos, is that they are all national movements. Thirty years ago, these kinds of movements, these contestatory youth protest movements, would have been global – like the extreme right or the ecologists at the time. The interesting thing is that the non-Islamic protest movements are in fact anti-globalist movements, even if they are globalised.

in the context of the wiki description of one of my favourite books, The True Believer.

Hoffer analyzes and attempts to explain the motives of the various types of personalities that give rise to mass movements; why and how mass movements start, progress and end; and the similarities between them, whether religious, political, radical or reactionary. He argues that even when their stated goals or values differ mass movements are interchangeable, that adherents will often flip from one movement to another, and that the motivations for mass movements are interchangeable. Thus, religious, nationalist and social movements, whether radical or reactionary, tend to attract the same type of followers, behave in the same way and use the same tactics and rhetorical tools. As examples, he often refers to Communism, Fascism, National Socialism, Christianity, Protestantism, and Islam.

So we get back to my point about Black Americans coming up with the Black Lives Matter movement, and on the whole, not resorting to violence. That suggests to me that if a counter-culture could be established that offered an alternative narrative to ISIS – then the competition could be used to weaken the support base for ISIS.

Them – those who don’t want to live is a vibrant liberal Western democracy and are willing to murder people who do
Us – those who do want to live in such a place

Clod there very much is a seperation, it’s naive to suggest we are one.

Jamby, I think that some of what clod says is correct for certain, that the them and us rhetoric only serves to harden our enemies resolve. No, if we are going to try to engage young Muslims and counter the rise of militant Islam it has to be done in a firm way but also a way that is subtle and fairly clear that we don’t intend to demonise all Muslims.

We could start by having friendly community engagements with parents, bringing people like the authors of these articles in to talk to them and perhaps even to school or university events – even initiate some kind of peaceful BLMesque movement. There is loads we could do to try to mitigate this before we go down the route of “Us vs Them” and the inevitable purge where the only Muslims left alive are the ones hidden in the attics of sympathetic Europeans.

Right lads, I’m going to start a new religion. We are going to ban beer,bacon and scantily clad ladies.
Any takers?

Don’t forget the book deal…gotta have a book.

“Mostly as a wind up, if he doesn’t get that Asians and Blacks who have been through economic and social hardship and not had their brothers and sisters blow themselves up as a result – might find the economic and social argument insulting – then that is his problem.”

Tom, what on earth are you actually talking about? Do you even know?

You’ve accused me of being an ‘apologist’ for something, and then claim I’m ‘victim blaming’. You haven’t offered any explanation at all as to why you’ve come to this conclusion, merely confused yourself talking about other things.

I think what’s happened, is that you’ve read something into my post, that wasn’t actually there. Which is what bainbrge did. You’ve then posted links which actually reinforce my position!

“No, if we are going to try to engage young Muslims and counter the rise of militant Islam it has to be done in a firm way but also a way that is subtle and fairly clear that we don’t intend to demonise all Muslims.”

I thought you said it had nothing to do with social inequality? Make your mind up!

There are an estimated 44 million Muslim people in Europe, according to the Pew research centre. The total number of ‘Muslims’ who have carried out atrocities in Europe in the last few years is what, a few dozen? Compare this with the number of attacks and atrocities carried out by far right/neo nazi extremists in Europe, which number in the thousands, if not more. Far -right extremism is massively on the rise in Europe once more, and minority groups are feeling increasingly isolated and vulnerable. Right wing media has helped spread fear and mistrust. In France, Muslim communities have suffered increased attacks and prejudice. It’s small wonder then, that a tiny handful of individuals will be ‘radicalised’ by a desire to lash out against what they see as injustice, inequality and a hostile host culture. To suggest that western society and culture is blameless in helping ferment such fear and hate, is at best totally ignorant of facts, and at worst, scapegoating minority groups in order to carry out an extremely sinister agenda.

Yunki’s post illustrates perfectly, how western foreign policy has created the **** up mess we are now witnessing. That we aren’t actually seeing a far, far larger wave of attacks on western targets, is indicative of the fact that we really aren’t at risk from some mythical mass terrorist campaign at all, but actually that the vast majority of people are decent and law-abiding.

There are an estimated 44 million Muslim people in Europe, according to the Pew research centre. The total number of ‘Muslims’ who have carried out atrocities in Europe in the last few years is what, a few dozen? Compare this with the number of attacks and atrocities carried out by far right/neo nazi extremists in Europe, which number in the thousands, if not more. Far -right extremism is massively on the rise in Europe once more, and minority groups are feeling increasingly isolated and vulnerable. Right wing media has helped spread fear and mistrust. In France, Muslim communities have suffered increased attacks and prejudice. It’s small wonder then, that a tiny handful of individuals will be ‘radicalised’ by a desire to lash out against what they see as injustice, inequality and a hostile host culture. To suggest that western society and culture is blameless in helping ferment such fear and hate, is at best totally ignorant of facts, and at worst, scapegoating minority groups in order to carry out an extremely sinister agenda.

Yunki’s post illustrates perfectly, how western foreign policy has created the **** up mess we are now witnessing. That we aren’t actually seeing a far, far larger wave of attacks on western targets, is indicative of the fact that we really aren’t at risk from some mythical mass terrorist campaign at all, but actually that the vast majority of people are decent and law-abiding.

Data on far right attacks please – they certainly aren’t killing that many people. Again, I don’t believe for a second that these individuals lash out simply because they feel that they are on the receiving end of social injustice. Plenty of other groups have been on the receiving end of social injustice, homosexuals, women, blacks – all without blowing themselves up in bloody campaigns of terrorism. However, I would say that intervention within their communities has to be done in the most tactful way possible. Jamby’s rather simplistic “them vs us….they hate us” line of reasoning will lead to nothing except for expulsions and purges.

The instability in Iraq and Syria would have happened regardless of whether we entered Iraq – a war which the French opposed if you remember. So you can scratch that off your list as to the reason why French Muslims are killing people and then themselves.

If the left cannot get a handle on integrating muslim communities properly, then the rise of the right is inevitable. And yes, social inequality is an issue throughout Europe that needs to be solved but that wont solve youngsters from gaining identity and validation by joining jihadi “bands of brothers” due to religious alienation from their host culture. Islam needs to liberalise – those on the left that oppose this idea are selling out progressives of middle-eastern descent such as

Tweets by MaryamNamazie

and their allies back home in those countries. Something like 40 percent of Iranians are irreligious, yet they are living under a theist state. Those people are our friends, those are the people we should be vocally supporting. Not bigoted ultra-conservative “moderates”.

“Data on far right attacks please – they certainly aren’t killing that many people”

Jesus **** Christ; are you for real? Start with Anders Breivik, and work your way through Europe.

“The instability in Iraq and Syria would have happened regardless of whether we entered Iraq”

I simply can’t be bothered with this crap any more. Carry on believing it if you want. You clearly have an agenda and I don’t wish to indulge you any further.

Jesus **** Christ; are you for real? Start with Anders Breivik, and work your way through Europe.

How does that compare to the constant attacks we’ve seen over the past year? Where are all these right wing lunatics killing people on a daily basis, all over the world?

I simply can’t be bothered with this crap any more. Carry on believing it if you want. You clearly have an agenda and I don’t wish to indulge you any further.

Don’t worry – I don’t care, I suspect politically you’re made from the same mold of leftists like Michael Parenti (serbian genocide/srebrenica denier), someone who I’d normally laugh at if his views weren’t so scary and ridiculous.

And just to counter your whole “it’s the fault of western foreign policy” thing you’ve got going on – perhaps if we go as far back as British colonialism – but that is pushing it. We made a mistake in supporting Saddam in the first place and we’ve made a continual mistake in alienating Shia Persians/Iranians.

*takes deep breathe in* What do you think would have been the outcome of us staying out of Iraq? Do you want me to spell it out for you? The Arab Spring would have still happened – lets put this into the context of Iraq and Syria political climate in the decade running up to the arab spring…. the Baathists of Iraq governed by divide-and-rule, they sowed seeds of discontent among Sunnis and targeted the Shia and Kurds. So much so that one-fifth of Iraq’s inhabitants—the Kurds—had already left Iraq and were living under Western protection. Whilst Assads government were deeply opposed to the Baathist regime who had made noises about reuniting Syria and Iraq. This is the same Baathist regime that had entered a war with Iran, that reintroduced trench warfare to the world. A war bloodier than the any the world had seen since Vietnam. Iran were and are friends with Assad, so this war further cooled Syrian-Iraqi relations. Now, what do you think would have been the reaction of the Iraqi regime to anti-assad rebels and islamists fighting in Syria after the Arab spring had kicked off? They would have intervened – and then Iran would have intervened as well – and we’d have exactly what we have now – a great big **** war with all sides seeking exactly the same objectives as they are now. Except ISIS would be called the “Ba’ath Party”.

Do you think we would have been immune to the effects of that war? No, of course not. Islamism would have been a runaway entity in that scenario as well, as both sides would have been keen to exploit militia groups – who would have still wanted to recruit youth from Europe and thus we’d have been bombed.

*breathes out*

Edit: Turns out I was right with some details in the last post.

Tom_W1987 – Member

Edit: Turns out I was right with some details in the last post.

I can see that came as a surprise

Welllll, I was recounting Syrian-Iraqi-Iranian relations from memory, not helped by the fact that the history of those relations are utterly insane. Also I’m tired, but if you have an issue with my view that the region would have descended into all out war without our help – enlighten me – I’m willing to listen.

How does that compare to the constant attacks we’ve seen over the past year? Where are all these right wing lunatics killing people on a daily basis, all over the world?

Reckon there’s probably a few in here:

1,000 mass shootings in 1,260 days
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/oct/02/mass-shootings-america-gun-violence

There are hundreds of murders everyday/week, throughout the world, that aren’t politically motivated.

Here’s the list of actual far right attacks on European soil since 1995.

2 February 1995
28 May 1999
28 June 1999
17 November 1999
22 July 2011
Probably 2016 with the killing of Joe Cox.

Since 2015 alone, we have had at least 17 Islamist attacks.

So yup, definitely comparable enough to engage in some whatabouterry.

“whatabouterry”?

Here’s the list of actual far right attacks on European soil since 1995.

I’ve always thought left/right was a pretty pointless and misleading pair of terms but lets assume they’re not for a second:

Is Militant Islam deeply conservative & reactionary trying to retain Medieval values and therefore far right?

Or is it radical & reforming trying to bring on change via Armaggeon at Dabiq and therefore far left wing?

Guardian had some data on European attacks yesterday. Basically 1 a year in France in 2015 rising to 1 every 2/3 weeks in 2016 I recall.

85 people murdered in Nice and its almost old news already. Most terrorist attacks now we don’t even discuss on STW. Its become a reality as part of day to day life, similar to the 20 years of the IRA campaign I experienced but much more violent.

With regards the church attack, seems a very cruel God who can let this happen to someone who has dedicated his life to serving him…

With regards the church attack, seems a very cruel God who can let this happen to someone who has dedicated his life to serving him…

Classy.

similar to the 20 years of the IRA campaign I experienced

WHat did you do in the war Daddy?

Was it make shit loads of money working in the city?
😆

Classy

Why classy? Seems a reasonable question to ask.

“Do you want me to spell it out for you?”

Well, you went and did anyway. I mean, you typed a load of your opinion, which conveniently fits in with your own personal narrative, but is pretty meaningless as none of us know what may or may not have happened. I’m not going to play your game of trawling the internet to carefully select facts to support a particular argument; I’m not interested in scoring points or ‘winning’ an argument, I’m concerned only with trying to understand the root causes of hate and fear, which are the foundations of most conflicts. For the record, I find the attacks by so-called ‘Islamists’ or indeed anyone claiming to be religiously motivated, as abhorrent as any other attacks motivated by hatred and xenophobia. You’ve still not been able to explain your claims that I’m an ‘apologist’ and a ‘victim blamer’, both accusations I find somewhat offensive. Now you need to either prove what you claim, or retract them and apologise, if you want to retain any respect.

“Here’s the list of actual far right attacks on European soil since 1995.”

This is what I find most disturbing. You’ve likened me to Michael Parenti, when I’ve offered no comment whatsoever, on the Yugoslavian war. Why did you do that? For what it’s worth, I am unfamiliar with Parenti’s views and words, so can offer no opinion of them. It seems you wish to denigrate my position, to justify and validate your own. A classic tactic of someone who wishes to push their own particular partisan agenda. But to try to suggest that far-right extremism isn’t a massive issue in Europe, by attempting to show that attacks by such groups are rare, is just utterly reprehensible. Given your vociferous stance when expressing your support for the Israeli regime, I find this even more bewildering. You’ve listed six incidents of far-right wing attacks. Six. In 21 years. In the whole of Europe.

Six.

It’s this denial and revisionism, that shows you aren’t someone whose views can be taken seriously. You’ve exposed yourself as someone with a particularly partisan agenda, and with no interest in actually looking deeper to try to find possible progressive solutions.

Your only attempt at a way of reconciling issues, is to suggest that Muslims should drink alcohol.

Pathetic. I’m done with you. Have a good life.

Why classy? Seems a reasonable question to ask

Mocking a 86 year old man the day after his brutal murder. Very classy.

@clod IS has recruited anywhere from 30,000 to 50,000 fighters, around half from Europe the balance fro countries like Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia. Plus we’d have to assume for every person who travels there are another 10 (?) who would sympathise strongly with them.

We all believe these terrorists and their sympathisers are a minority of Muslims but is it 0.1%, 1%, 5%, 10% or some other number ?

Junky as I said before I’ve had friends and colleagues killed or injured in terrorist incidents. I’ve had to check under my car every day for explosives when on holiday with friends serving in the military. I’ll be walking past the army guards on Saturday morning on the way into a Bar-Mitzvah service. Not a topic of cheap shots I’d say.

Mocking a 86 year old man the day after his brutal murder. Very classy.

Certainly not mocking the priest. I have the utmost sympathy for him. I’m just surprised that ‘believers’ of any religion can’t seriously question their belief in a god who allows this kind of thing to happen. He gets the credit when things go right, surely he should be a bit more accountable when bad things are ‘allowed’ to happen.

I lived above the arndale when the IRA firebombed it

I dont think i did much to stand up to terrorism all i did was not let it affect my life and carry on regardless in an area that was later decimated in an attack.
If you want to write this as you[ or me for that matter] being brave and fighting terrorism then that is your call. I will continue to point out is a little far fetched.
You are free to write your “brave” narrative as you see fit.

Not a topic of cheap shots I’d say.

Ok then without you going on holiday,making yourself rich in the city and attending a Bar Mitzvahs terrorism would not have been defeated

Thanks for FIGHTING them on our behalf 😕

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/28/honour-killings-qandeel-baloch-samia-shahid

This is personal. This is my community, and my constituents. Shahid was, like the girls I grew up with, Bradford born and bred. And maybe it is easier for me to talk about this taboo precisely because it is my community – Shahid could have been one of my mates.

Whatever the truth in this particular case, for too long, we’ve had a mixed response to “honour killings” in this country: on one hand, murder is murder. But on the other (shaky, sweaty and politically correct) hand, we are careful not to intrude in others’ cultures.

The worst bigotry is the bigotry of low expectations. We must not stay silent just because we don’t understand something. This may not be everyone’s culture, but it is everyone’s problem. This may not be everyone’s immediate community, but it is happening here. We must be sensitive and fearless, just as we are when dealing with other crimes.

😈