“MILTON Friedman once said that, if you put the government in charge of the Sahara desert, there’ll eventually be a shortage of sand. No wonder that, after 14 years of socialist government, Venezuela – the country with the world’s largest oil reserves – is currently importing…

gasoline.”

warning: swear filter avoidance may result in a ban.

Who’s it a quote from?

My view on the root cause of many of the economic problems in the world.

Bloody shareholders!!!!

Renationalise the transport and energy industries and run them as not for profit.

Do they have the refining capacity in Venezuela?

Large %age of oil is already mortgaged off – China, Cuba, domestic needs
High levels of crime
Large fiscal deficit (despite oil)
Inflation >50%
Heavy dependency on imported goods
Reserves dwindling

What’s not to like?!?

Renationalise the transport and energy industries and run them as not for profit.

that went REALLY well in Venezuela….

Typical that Milton Friedman would twist the truth in order to generate a soundbite. Unfortunately for him, the world is not as simple as he tries to make out. The vast majority of Venezuela’s oil reserves are in the form of very nasty tar sands that are very expensive and environmentally damaging to extract, so importing gasoline makes a lot of sense.

Just been reading through some more Milton Friedman quotes and they seem to be a little to the right of me (opinions may vary, obvs). I like this one though:

Governments never learn. Only people learn.

It reminds me of the mass demonstrations against the Labour Party’s decision to back the US and invade Iraq.

This is nothing new and is not confined to Socialist countries. Nigeria is the fifth biggest producer of oil in the world yet for years it has been exporting all of its oil for refining into petrol, diesel and kerosine, value added outside the country, then re-importing the products. This has happened because in typical African fashion no provision has ever been made for repair or maintenance of the country’s two refineries, which have stopped working. That former president Obasanjo happens to own all the tankers and control the road routes is also rumoured to be a big factor in the refineries having been allowed to collapse.

The same specially African problem exists with electrical generation where there has been precisely zero investment in generation. Consequently in cities like Lagos there is almost no public electricity supply at all – my colleague there has had no “light” now for six days and is burning £30 worth of diesel a day to keep his ACs working at the hottest time of the year. The fact that several senior ministers happen to control the importation of generators is also rumoured to be a big factor in the complete lack of any investment in public infrastructure.

Dr J, I think Woppit forgot to put the second set of ” in to note the end of the MF quote!

MF died in 2006.

that’s what confused me – it’s like the whole post is a quote from somewhere else, with a Friedman bit on the front?

@teamhurtmore – my mistake – so it’s Woppit being daft, not MF?

It reminds me of the mass demonstrations against the Labour & Conservative Party’s decision to back the US and invade Iraq.

you might wanna check which MPs voted for that one

I think Woppit is doing an “Alex Salmond” and deliberately mixing up soundbites. Nothing more. 😉

But the deteriorating situation in Vz is getting very serious and is no laughing matter IMO.

(fair to say that MF would not have been advocating a lot of what is going on/has been going on in Vz,)

And double check who put together and released the informative dossier prior to that vote.

Here’s the whole thing (note quote marks at each end of the, er, quote)…

“MILTON Friedman once said that, if you put the government in charge of the Sahara desert, there’ll eventually be a shortage of sand. No wonder that, after 14 years of socialist government, Venezuela – the country with the world’s largest oil reserves – is currently importing gasoline. This fact highlights Venezuela’s painful descent into chaos, as the economy crumbles and the nation’s social fabric unravels.

Venezuela is now witnessing its largest protests in a decade. The government of President Nicolas Maduro has cracked down on demonstrations with unprecedented force, using the National Guard and armed paramilitary gangs. At least 14 people have been killed, with hundreds detained – including Leopoldo López, one of the most emblematic leaders of the opposition – and over a dozen cases of torture reported.

Driving the unrest is a large segment of the population that is fed up with the country’s rapidly deteriorating economy. Despite receiving over $1 trillion in oil revenues since 1999, the government has run out of cash and now relies heavily on printing money to finance itself. The result is the highest inflation rate in the world: officially 56 per cent last year, although according to calculations by Steve Hanke of Johns Hopkins University, the implied annual inflation rate is actually 330 per cent.

The government reacted to skyrocketing inflation by following the typical socialist script: it imposed draconian price controls and has been raiding businesses it accuses of hoarding. As a result, there are widespread shortages of food and medicines, and people have to endure hour-long lines in supermarkets. The scarcity index produced by Venezuela’s central bank reached 28 per cent in January, meaning that one out of four basic products is out of stock at any given time. Somehow, toilet paper is now more valuable than paper money.

The productive sector has been decimated after hundreds of nationalisations and expropriations. Oil now accounts for 96 per cent of export earnings, up from 80 per cent a decade ago. Moreover, due to gross mismanagement at PDVSA, the state oil monopoly, production has dropped by 28 per cent since 2000, the only major energy producer in the world to experience a decline in the last quarter of a century.

The economic hardship faced by Venezuelans is compounded by a horrific rise in crime. The country is now one of the most dangerous places in the world, with almost 25,000 homicides in 2013 – a murder rate of 79 killings per 100,000 inhabitants. One of the reasons the protests are growing, despite the government’s brutal repression, is that the country is quickly becoming unlivable and many Venezuelans think that they have nothing to lose.

As the economy is spiralling out of control, the government is casting aside any pretence of being democratic. Maduro, who currently enjoys the power to rule by decree, has consolidated his regime’s grip on the media: all TV stations either belong to the government or toe its line. International networks have been blocked from cable. Dozens of opposition radio stations have seen their licenses revoked, and the newspapers, the last bastion of the free press in Venezuela, are weeks away from shutting down because the government denies them the hard currency they need to buy print paper.

Maduro’s main challenge is that he doesn’t command the same level of loyalty, much less adoration, as his predecessor Hugo Chávez. Thus, with the indispensable help of Cuba’s security apparatus, he relies on ever more ruthless tactics. He even said recently that he doesn’t mind being called a dictator. Unfortunately, the army and the National Guard are firmly aligned with the government and there is little or no chance that they might baulk at exercising unrestrained violence against unarmed civilians. With no diplomatic pressure coming from other Latin American nations or regional groupings such as the Organisation of American States, the Venezuelan government has a free hand to repress its people.

Venezuela was once South America’s richest country, taking in immigrants from all over the world. For many years, it was also a remarkable democracy in a region where most nations were ruled by military dictatorships. Today, socialism has turned Venezuela into an authoritarian basket case that thousands try to escape every year. With millions of Venezuelans no longer willing to put up with deteriorating living conditions, and a government willing to take whatever means necessary to hold on to power, it looks like the worst is yet to come.”

allthepies – Member
And double check who put together and released the informative dossier prior to that vote.

and then ask if anyone actually bothered to read it before voting as it was obviously bullshine

the list of MPs that voted against the war via this amendment

This House… believes that the case for war against Iraq has not yet been established, especially given the absence of specific United Nations authorisation; but, in the event that hostilities do commence, pledges its total support for the British forces engaged in the Middle East, expresses its admiration for their courage, skill and devotion to duty, and hopes that their tasks will be swiftly concluded with minimal casualties on all sides..

Diane Abbott, Graham Allen, John Austin, Tony Banks, Harry Barnes, John Battle, Andrew Bennett, Joe Benton, Roger Berry, Harold Best, Bob Blizzard, Keith Bradley, Kevin Brennan, Karen Buck, Richard Burden, Anne Campbell, Ronnie Campbell, Martin Caton, David Chaytor, Michael Clapham, Helen Clark, Tom Clarke, Tony Clarke, Harry Cohen, Iain Coleman, Michael Connarty, Frank Cook, Robin Cook, Jeremy Corbyn, Jim Cousins, Tom Cox, David Crausby, Ann Cryer, John Cryer, Tam Dalyell , Valerie Davey, Ian Davidson, Denzil Davies, Terry Davis, Hilton Dawson, John Denham, Parmjit Dhanda, Jim Dobbin, Frank Dobson, Frank Doran, David Drew, Huw Edwards, Clive Efford, Bill Etherington, Mark Fisher, Paul Flynn, Hywel Francis,George Galloway, Neil Gerrard, Ian Gibson, Roger Godsiff, Win Griffiths, John Grogan , Patrick Hall, David Hamilton, Fabian Hamilton, Dai Havard, Doug Henderson, Stephen Hepburn, David Heyes, David Hinchliffe, Kate Hoey, Jimmy Hood, Kelvin Hopkins, Joan Humble, Brian Iddon, Eric Illsley, Glenda Jackson, Helen Jackson, Jon Owen Jones, Lynne Jones, Martyn Jones, David Kidney, Peter Kilfoyle, Mark Lazarowicz, David Lepper, Terry Lewis, Tony Lloyd, Ian Lucas, Iain Luke, John Lyons, Christine McCafferty, John McDonnell, Ann McKechin, Kevin McNamara, Tony McWalter, Alice Mahon, Jim Marshall, Robert Marshall-Andrews, Eric Martlew, Julie Morgan, Chris Mullin, Denis Murphy, Doug Naysmith, Eddie O’Hara, Diana Organ, Albert Owen, Linda Perham, Peter Pike, Kerry Pollard, Gordon Prentice, Gwyn Prosser, Ken Purchase, John Robertson, Joan Ruddock, Martin Salter, Mohammad Sarwar, Malcolm Savidge, Philip Sawford, Brian Sedgemore, Debra Shipley, Alan Simpson, Marsha Singh, Chris Smith, Llew Smith, George Stevenson, Gavin Strang, Graham Stringer, David Taylor, Jon Trickett, Paul Truswell, Desmond Turner, Bill Tynan, Rudi Vis, Joan Walley, Robert Wareing, Alan Whitehead, Alan Williams, Betty Williams, Mike Wood, Tony Worthington, David Wright, Tony Wright, Derek Wyatt
· 16 Tory MPs who backed the rebel amendment were:

Peter Ainsworth, Richard Bacon, Tony Baldry, John Baron, Kenneth Clarke, John Gummer, John Horam, Douglas Hogg, Edward Leigh, Humphrey Malins, Andrew Murrison, Richard Page, John Randall, Jonathan Sayeed, Ian Taylor, Andrew Turner

· All 53 Liberal Democrat MPs and 11 other MPs also backed the amendment

you might wanna check which MPs voted for that one

Good point, you can’t argue with that, although the Labour Party was in the driving seat at the time. They weren’t exactly putting up a valiant opposition!

And double check who put together and released the informative dossier prior to that vote.

This is new to me. I’m guessing that you mean the Tories, but which dossier are we talking about? The sexed up one with all the WMD horseradish in it?

MrWoppit – you still haven’t said where it’s a quote from?

Can I be the first to suggest that it is actually all Fatchers fault?

MrWoppit – you still haven’t said where it’s a quote from?

http://www.cityam.com/article/1393351308/how-socialism-has-destroyed-venezuela

That’s the one. Campbell’s fairy story.

allthepies – Member
shermer75 said » The sexed up one with all the WMD horseradish in it?
That’s the one. Campbell’s fairy story.

and the war loving tories’ wet dream
(9 out of 10 tories voted for it, despite being the opposition!
and 1/3rd of labour voted against it)

This has happened because in typical African fashion no provision has ever been made for repair or maintenance of the country’s two refineries, which have stopped working.

No – it’s happened for the same reason it’s happening in Venezuela and Iran – massive unsustainable fuel subsidies which make investment into domestic refining capacity unviable.

Menzies Campbell?

Ah, no, Alistair Campbell. Oops… 😳

Saudi Arabia imports sand.

Just saying.

Get a grip wopster. You start by quoting Milton Friedman, then expect anyone to take you seriously? 😆

You can sum up everything that swollen bulbous bell-end ever said in one simple statement:

If you just hand the entire worlds resources over to me and my corporate mates, we can do away with this pretence-at-democracy nonsense, and we promise we’ll see you all right. Honest. No seriously, we will. No need for any regulation, or anything like that. The market will sort all that out. Like it sorts everything else out. We’re as straight as the day is long. Honest guv’nor! No… you won’t be needing a welfare state or any kind of public provision. The market will sort all that out too. Its really good like that, the market. Really benign, and stuff. We designed it like that. Of course it’ll work. Its called trickle-down. Can’t fail!

Now if you’ll excuse me. My gold-plated space ship is just about to land. I’ve got my own planet now

So much for half the first paragraph, then. Well done.

Well, the first half of the first paragraph is the only part that has anything to do with socialism, per se. Meltdowns have been known to happen in Latin American countries before. Choosing one with a socialist government and then claiming that it demonstrates anything at all seems a bit simplistic.

We import peas from Kenya. Can I see your tits?

You are aware that socialism made something of a comeback in South American countries like Venezuala as a direct reaction to the rule imposed on them, from the late 70’s onwards, by dictatorial (and sometimes genocidal) puppet governments, backed by Washington?

Who used them as Guinea Pigs for a new form of turbo-charged capitalism, often at the point of a (US supplied) gun, known as the Chicago School? It was devised and championed by a certain…. erm…. what was his name again…… hang on… it’ll come to me…….. oh yeah…. Milton ****ing Friedman

🙄

I haven’t read the actual article but from the OP’s post it seems Friedman said “if you put the government in charge,,,” not “if you put the socialist government in charge…”

Let’s face it, if you want a country run badly, put politicians in charge.

Does a country need to be “run” by anybody?

Does a country need to be “run” by anybody?

The Somalia situation would imply that having no one running a country isn’t a good thing.

Just to note, seeing as we don’t appear to have the author properly attributed here, the article quoted is an opinion piece written by Juan Carlos Hidalgo, “policy analyst” at a “leading American libertarian think tank” (sic), the primary objectives of which appear to be championing the virtues of the free market, advocating minimising governmental intervention/ state spending, criticising US militarism abroad, acting as a voicepiece for the interests of big business, corporate multinationals and the tobacco industry, flirting with climate change denial, campaigning against infringements of civil liberties like having to wear seatbelts… Pretty standard neoliberal fare really, hardly surprising that the author isn’t a massive fan of Venezuela.

And to echo some of the comments above, if I received the article’s level of insight and analysis in an insignificant first year undergraduate course essay, whipped up on a overnight on Wikipedia and Proplus, it’d be lucky to scrape a pass. For instance, rather than simply trashing the sitting duck that is Venezuela, the more middling students might be so bold as to attempt a comparison with other states in the region and note that many of the issues the author attributes to “socialism” (high murder rates, human rights infringements, desperate and rising inequality, civil unrest, authoritarianism…) could easily be levelled at neighbouring countries that have most forcefully and ruthlessly pursued neoliberal agendas that the author seems to advocate.

Overall grade: marginal fail – please try harder.

So. The STW story so far, overall.

Left wing government, baaad.
Right-wing government, baaad.
Liberal government, baaad
No government, baaaad.

Erm…

Left wing government, baaad.
Right-wing government, baaad.
Liberal government, baaad
No government, baaaad.

I think that’s just the MrWoppit troll story so far?

Perhaps it might be fairer to say;

All governments, good and bad.

And it’s in City AM.

People, rather than systems, fail. VZ is failing because if basic mismanagement of the economy and it’s resources. Not an idealised political system. It may have been socialists that made the errors but that doesn’t mean that socialism itself failed.

VZ is failing because if basic mismanagement of the economy and it’s resources.

This^. Not helped by Nicolas Maduro embarking on a homocidal power grab