So the US has now said that they need to negotiate with Assad to collaborate in defeating the Islamic State within Syria.

You really couldn’t make it up. Vladimir Putin must be literally laughing his tits off at that one!!!!

binners – Member
So the US has now said that they need to negotiate with Assad to collaborate in defeating the Islamic State within Syria.

You really couldn’t make it up. Vladimir Putin must be literally laughing his tits off at that one!!!

It’s like expecting British Gas to keep you on their best tariff.

Putin has no issues about how he deals with uprisings look at how he dealt with Chechyna. He will no doubt be smirking away but has all sorts of his own problems to deal with.

Its when the Americans and Iran cosy up that jaws will hit the floor.

It is so crazily complicated, Hezbollah fights with Assad with funding from Iran, Hezbollah then more hated by their hosts in Lebanon. America bombing Islamic State who are fighting Assad, American hates Assad and wants him gone or do they???? Putin scrapping in Ukraine and all sorts of little skirmishes in the Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgzstanand Tajikstan. Georgia is still not happy. Pakistan a real mess. Israel is just mad these days and we know has the backing of America. Turkey wants to be part of the EU more that ever with this going on on it’s doorstep and British kids are going to fight in a farway place in the name of their God.

Bloody hell its depressing, where will it end?

The enemy of my enemy is my friend .

I watched a live news report from Syria where the reporter had just hot footed it to a block of flats that Assad had just flattened

The reporter interviewed a local who lived in the adjacent building.

The reporter opened with what a bad bastard Assad was blowing up this block of flats.
The local looked at him puzzled and said. Yesterday a bunch of armed men turned up and assembled an anti aircraft gun on the roof of that building, and then told every one who lived there “you have not seen us roight”.
And continued on to say what would you expect Assad to do.

When this all kicked off with Syria I did not agree with how it was being reported when assads forces fought back against armed rebels it was reported as he was firing on civilians,yes because they were shooting at him.

Like in th Ukraine the separatist were always terrorists in my mind yet they were first reported as russian protestors,
**** off, protestors don’t turn up better armed than arnie in the final scenes of commando.
And now they have become seperatists, no they are terrorist.

Bloody hell its depressing, where will it end?

Speaking as a Cold War child, all this post-Glasnost joviality left me with a feeling of nagging doubt – like leaving the house wondering whether you’ve turned the gas stove off. Now there’s a real shitstorm afoot once more, I’m more relaxed.

I think its been quite eye-opening about how biased (or just simplistic and lazy) our media are. Up until a month ago there was a unanimous viewpoint across the media regarding Syria. Even the BBC, The Guardian and Channel 4 news (who are normally the safest voices on this) were parroting the same unquestioning line.

Assad was a evil monster who was ruthlessly suppressing an innocent civilian population, with only plucky freedom fighters (who we should be arming, or even mounting air strikes to support) trying to protect them from this dictators evil oppression. Putin and Russia were just cynically siding with Assad to make money and annoy America! They are also cold calculating bastards

Well what a load of old bollocks that all turned out to be!! Complete and utter over-simplified, politicised tripe, the lot of it!! Because thats what suited ‘the west’s’ agenda. And NOBODY in the UK media questioned it, or offered an alternative assessment

Its difficult to see where you’re actually going to get some decent impartial independent news, because right now, I don’t believe a bloody word of whats coming out of the region. It appears its all just propaganda

Bloody hell its depressing, where will it end?

At a guess

Its difficult to see where you’re actually going to get some decent impartial independent news :

http://www.aljazeera.com/

?

binners – Member
I think its been quite eye-opening about how biased (or just simplistic and lazy) our media are…It appears its all just propaganda

Simple:

Two party politics
Media in the pockets of either or both main parties
Political elite running things for their own post-UK political gain (e.g. his oilyness Blair being Middle East ‘Peace’ Envoy)
Job done

Stay skeptical.

Am finding myself with the Americans that IS will need to be stopped (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/21/isis-us-military-iraq-strikes-threat-apocalyptic)

I can’t help seeing parallels with the Nazis. If IS could round up the ‘infidel’ by the million and gas them, I think they would. I think they’d have blown the Mosul dam if they could have done. They just need to be dealt with.

IS days are numbered IMO (tho in the hundreds not the tens) but there will be a lot of pain and grief before the end is reached, and it will require local nations to put boots on the ground.

It would be great to see other nations such as China, Russia, India etc stepping up to the plate on this one to help with resources, air power and so on, rather than leaving it to the US & UK, Germany, France etc.

Obviously, I’ve posted this plenty of times before (though not in this thread), but if you want a sound long term analysis of the situation, look no further:

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP7L8bw5QF4[/video]

Don’t quite understand Putin siding with the Al-Assad’s can be judged as being cynical seeing as Russia has long standing ties with Syria. Not only does Russia have a naval base in Syria it is also a big trading partner.
Why wouldn’t Putin support Syria?

So the US has now said that they need to negotiate with Assad to collaborate in defeating the Islamic State within Syria.

You really couldn’t make it up. Vladimir Putin must be literally laughing his tits off at that one!!!!

@binners, I read a briefing today which said the US is working with Iranian forces in Iraq to push ISIS back. briefing said we won’t read about it in the press but it’s happening with US air strikes supporting Iranian fighters and with co-ordination of movement.

As we look ather Syrian situation now had we (the West) intervened in Syria against Assad by supporting the Free Syrian Army would that have curtailed he rise of ISIS or might we have actually inadvertently helped them ?

ISIS have done a smart job of keeping journalists out of Syria, we don;t have nightly news coverage of their atrocities so they managed to expand “out of sight out of mind” until now. Syria has been a huge humanitarian disaster, estimates now from the UN are for 190,000 deaths and most agree that’s probably too low.

ISIS now holds 20 foreigners captive, mostly aid workers and journalists.

@mattjg – China see the ME as not their problem. Russia has close links with Syria and after feeling betrayed about the NATO intervention in Libya (“support sir strikes only, no regime change”) I don’t see them doing anythingwhich could help the West given the Ukranian/sanctions situation. India is not really a global player and I cannot see them getting involved in a Muslim conflict, too much risk if inflaming relations with Pakistan and Bangladesh.

In reponse to some discussion earlier.

Gaza was a much better place to live for the average Palestinian when the Israeli’s occupied it and kept the situation under control. They left in 2005 (with much controversy in Israel with many against it) under an agreement with the Palestinian authority. What happened next is Hamas seized control (with much bloody infighting with the PA) in 2007 and immediately the Egyptians and Israelis closed the border. A cycle of increasing violence and conflict then arose which was Hamas’s strategy of destroying Israel. This is quite clearly impossible militarily but it doesn’t stop them trying. It is noteworthy much much more peaceful (on a relative basis) is the West Bank which is controlled by the PA.

I see all the folk on here who try and draw parallels between ISIS and the when the real comparison is ISIS and Hamas. The head of communications for ISIS in Syria lives with his family in Gaza.

I am not sure if there are many Britains if any in the IDF, there are certainly quite a few Americans. From my understanding you have to be resident in Israel and an Israeli passport holder to join.

Don’t quite understand Putin siding with the Al-Assad’s can be judged as being cynical seeing as Russia has long standing ties with Syria. Not only does Russia have a naval base in Syria it is also a big trading partner.
Why wouldn’t Putin support Syria?

@ratswithwings – exactly. Putin’s point of view was that Assad was fighting a civil war against people trying to overthrow the government, he should not get involved with trying to help the rebels win against the government of his long standing ally. As I posted earlier, does the West get involved against Assad effectively helping what is now ISIS ?

Nice work jambalaya, we can always rely on you for informed intelligence propaganda from the area 😉

I’m sure the Israeli’s have the Palestinians best interests at heart really, but they are just victims (With flechette shells amongst their vast US military aid), etc etc.

The best bet is a co-ordinated attempt by all countries in the area to work together to reduce the influence and arsenal of ISIS… the news that the US is intending to work with Iran and Syria is welcome as it will go some way to easing tensions caused by previous incursions such as Operation Ajax… may even help bring stability to Syria, if covert US support for Syrian rebels is removed…

Now, where did ISIS get all their weapons from in the 1st place?

I read a briefing today

not sharing?

Nice work jambalaya, we can always rely on you for informed intelligence propaganda from the area

@johhny as you are posting conspiracy theories about Lee Rigby and MI5 that’s a bit rich but I appreciate the name check and the wink ! I actually spend far too much time reading stuff from all sources (Israel, Arab and Western) as well as having access to quite a few private subscription news services and global political briefings. If we had our TV screen full everynight about what has been happening in Syria for 2 years and in Iraq right now we wouldn’t be talking about Gaza, 2,000 vs 190,000 – 100 times more casualties.

jivehoneyjive – Member

Nice work jambalaya, we can always rely on you for informed intelligence propaganda from the area

not sharing?

@soobalis – some material is published to website (requires registration), a lot is subscription only. Yhey have a public access story about Hamas executing 18 who they call are collaborators with Israel, I imagine the IDF where given intelligence about which house the Hamas leaders where living in, perhaps from a rival faction within Gaza

Stratfor

Oh, I concede, Mi5/Mi6 actively seeking to censor reports about their involvement with Lee Rigby’s killer is most certainly just a kooky ‘conspiracy theory’

Thankfully, my origami skills are peaking and consequently my tin foil hat is high fashion…

To some extent, you are right about what news the media chooses to portray… make no mistake, all western intelligence services have known about the ISIS crisis for a long while, but have let things grow to such proportion so as to have an excuse to intervene.

I may be a bit boring on this point, but the arms industry is pivotal in all these deaths, Syria, Iraq, Gaza, Ukraine, Ferguson etc etc.

Until we address the root of the problem (the military industrial media complex), the body count will rack up for decades to come…

@Bigbutslimmerbloke 😆 Though a cuppa is a refreshing beverage, generally there is more substance to what you cook in a pot 😉

@soobalias

Here is the piece, its free access US and Iran align on ISIS

@jivehoneyjive – there may be many reasons the security services wanted parts of the report sensored, Rigby’s killers where known to the security services.

People are going to kill each other whether they have sophisticated weapons or not, they have been doing that for 1000’s of years sadly.

make no mistake, all western intelligence services have known about the ISIS crisis for a long while, but have let things grow to such proportion so as to have an excuse to intervene.

The West wanted to get involved in Syria sooner but there was not a consensus, UK parliament voted against action and Russia blocked things at the UN. The overflow into Iraq actually gave the US leeway to do so once the Iraqi army proved totally ineffective.

thanks jambalaya.

The West wanted to get involved in Syria sooner but there was not a consensus, UK parliament voted against action and Russia blocked things at the UN. The overflow into Iraq actually gave the US leeway to do so once the Iraqi army proved totally ineffective.

True… except the West wanted to get involved on the same side of the conflict as ISIS; it’s highly likely that arms supplied to Syrian rebels by the west helped ISIS’s advance (and that’s before you look at other supply chains)

@jiveJ – Yes. I think the West proposed to help the Free Syrian Army, possibly had they done so ISIS wouldn’t have grown so strong but it does show the complexity of the situation. We have to look very carefully at Turkey here, they allowed free movement of Western jihadists ostensibly to support anti-Assad but they have directly allowed ISIS to grow. There are rumours/possibility that ISIS is selling oil through Turkey to fund it’s war effort.

There are also rumours that Afghanistan’s opium industry has tripled since invasion by allied forces…

And contractors such as Halliburton have made profits of $138 billion from the conflict in Iraq…

Who can we trust in this situation?

How do we define the goodies and the baddies?

The head of communications for ISIS in Syria lives with his family in Gaza.

We should be thankful he’s not in Manchester.

I’ve seen this quoted twice in this thread. I don’t really see what it is meant to prove. Basically someone who runs a pro-Is website lives in Gaza. I don’t think that means that Hamas and Is should be considered the same.

I don’t think that means that Hamas and Is should be considered the same.

i think what he’s trying to get at is that seeing as they’re both Sunni Muslim groups…they must be in cahoots with each other…especially seeing as the ISIS communications guy apparently lives in Gaza….here’s me thinking that ISIS regards Hamas as apostates who have no legitimate authority in Gaza.

@gonzy is to a degree correct. To be honest I didn’t know both where Sunni and I don’t understand the differences between the Sunni and Shite streams of Islam anyway, just they don’t seem to like each other at all given the long running conflicts throughout the region. Where he is correct is I am constantly being criticized for “confusing” the different regional conflicts when I believe they are related so that’s the rationale for mentioning it again

@BigButSlimmer, very good.

We should be thankful he’s not in Manchester.

@timid have you seen the video taken outside the Jewish shop in Manchester ? I don’t see it as too great a jump from chants of “long live Hamas” to “long live ISIS” in the way the creator of the video links Hamas to Hitler. What I found stunning was the guy at the end of the video who was “bigging up Hitler” to what I imagine where Jewish people outside the shop (they where holding an Israeli flag). The irony is that I cannot imagine Hitler would have been too sympathetic to him given what I assume are his ethnic origins and religious beliefs. I am sure he was just trying to think of the biggest insult he could to the Jews but think things through he most certainly had not.

Puppets of Hate – Hamas and Hitler

I don’t understand the differences between the Sunni and Shia[s]Shite[/s] streams of Islam anyway

well here it is…in a nutshell so to speak

Both Sunni and Shia Muslims share the most fundamental Islamic beliefs and articles of faith. The differences between these two main sub-groups within Islam initially stemmed not from spiritual differences, but political ones. Over the centuries, however, these political differences have spawned a number of varying practices and positions which have come to carry a spiritual significance.

Origins – A Question of Leadership

The division between Shia and Sunni dates back to the death of the Prophet Muhammad, and the question of who was to take over the leadership of the Muslim nation. Sunni Muslims agree with the position taken by many of the Prophet’s companions, that the new leader should be elected from among those capable of the job. This is what was done, and the Prophet Muhammad’s close friend and advisor, Abu Bakr, became the first Caliph of the Islamic nation. The word “Sunni” in Arabic comes from a word meaning “one who follows the traditions of the Prophet.”
On the other hand, some Muslims share the belief that leadership should have stayed within the Prophet’s own family, among those specifically appointed by him, or among Imams appointed by God Himself.

The Shia Muslims believe that following the Prophet Muhammad’s death, leadership should have passed directly to his cousin/son-in-law, Ali bin Abu Talib. Throughout history, Shia Muslims have not recognized the authority of elected Muslim leaders, choosing instead to follow a line of Imams which they believe have been appointed by the Prophet Muhammad or God Himself. The word “Shia” in Arabic means a group or supportive party of people. The commonly-known term is shortened from the historical “Shia-t-Ali,” or “the Party of Ali.” They are also known as followers of “Ahl-al-Bayt” or “People of the Household” (of the Prophet).

Distribution

Sunni Muslims make up the majority (85%) of Muslims all over the world. Significant populations of Shia Muslims can be found in Iran and Iraq, and large minority communities in Yemen, Bahrain, Syria, and Lebanon.

Differences in Religious Practice

From this initial question of political leadership, some aspects of spiritual life have been affected and now differ between the two groups of Muslims.
It is important to remember that despite these differences in opinion and practice, Shia and Sunni Muslims share the main articles of Islamic belief and are considered by most to be brethren in faith. In fact, most Muslims do not distinguish themselves by claiming membership in any particular group, but prefer to call themselves simply, “Muslims.”

Religious Leadership

Shia Muslims believe that the Imam is sinless by nature, and that his authority is infallible as it comes directly from God. Therefore, Shia Muslims often venerate the Imams as saints and perform pilgrimages to their tombs and shrines in the hopes of divine intercession.
Sunni Muslims counter that there is no basis in Islam for a hereditary privileged class of spiritual leaders, and certainly no basis for the veneration or intercession of saints. Sunni Muslims contend that leadership of the community is not a birthright, but a trust that is earned and which may be given or taken away by the people themselves.

in a way you could say that the split after the death of the Prophet Mohammed and the following of 2 different schools of thought is kind of similar to how Islam and Judaism were formed as they both originate from Abraham and his first son Ishmael (Father of the Arabs) and second son Isaac (Father of the Hebrews)…..but you already knew that right??

I’ve seen this quoted twice in this thread. I don’t really see what it is meant to prove.

I don’t read much of what jambalaya posts but generally he likes to vilify the Palestinians which he does by attacking Hamas, making a comparison between Hamas and ISIS and darkly suggesting that ISIS has links with Gaza is one of his ways of doing that.

ISIS is operating in gaza but it seems to be a small group. People are claiming that Hamas has no control over these sub groups. I guess Hamas could see links between isis and themselves but i’m sure hamas will not want to come under the control of isis and remain independent but isis would obviously have other ideas about that.

The syrian civil war is a three way fight isn’t it? Assad/Hezbollah vs FSA/Islamic Forces & Kurds vs ISIS.

In some ways this whole conflict is a continuation of the cold war. The problems are in proxy states or former spheres of influence of the cold war belligerents.

As is the whole AQ problem with USA & Pakistan using Islamic forces to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 80s.

I think its been quite eye-opening about how biased (or just simplistic and lazy) our media are. Up until a month ago there was a unanimous viewpoint across the media regarding Syria. Even the BBC, The Guardian and Channel 4 news (who are normally the safest voices on this) were parroting the same unquestioning line.

Assad was a evil monster who was ruthlessly suppressing an innocent civilian population, with only plucky freedom fighters (who we should be arming, or even mounting air strikes to support) trying to protect them from this dictators evil oppression. Putin and Russia were just cynically siding with Assad to make money and annoy America! They are also cold calculating bastards

Not biased, just a bien pensant left-wing media. I noticed and was somewhat ashamed to see that it was the left that was calling for war over Syria, I remember reading far more cynical well-informed articles in the Times/Nazigraph.

ISIS is operating in gaza but it seems to be a small group.

What do you mean it’s “operating in Gaza”, it controls territory ?

Gaza is 25 miles long by about 5 miles wide, I’m fairly sure ISIS don’t control any of it.

Or by “operating in Gaza” do you mean that someone in Gaza with a computer has posted something on the internet which is supportive of ISIS ?

I noticed and was somewhat ashamed to see that it was the left that was calling for war over Syria

Who is “the left” ? And why are you ashamed ?

BTW it was David Cameron who lost the House of Commons vote calling for military action against Syria, I don’t recall Cameron ever being described as “left”.

No Ernie. Saw a recent photo of an armed cell from Gaza claiming to be ISIS. Is it verifiable? I dont know.

BTW it was David Cameron who lost the House of Commons vote calling for military action against Syria, I don’t recall Cameron ever being described as “left”.

But out of the broadsheets, it was mostly the Guardian clamoring for war. As they did with Libya.