Sounds like the best plan is just keep your head down, don’t kick up a fuss about the odd hour here and there and look for a new job (you might need a reference!!).

And then you’ll realise what life is like in the real world outside of working for a uni… 😆

Oh, and you are Kevin, used to work for me, terrible at managing your time, your work was waffling and inefficient and kept a log of every 5 mins overtime you worked, and I claim my five pounds!!

[/cynical-3-long-weeks-of-free-overtime-in-the-private-sector]

And then you’ll realise what life is like in the real world outside of working for a uni…

If this is true then +1 – get into the real world and you’ll see what half the posters are on about.

It all sounds a bit juvenile and whingey to me; pissing about over a few hours and ‘she likes them better than me’.

I’m interested in the ‘I need to do the school run because my wife has gone back to work’ thing; what would you do if they said no? Sounds like you presented them with a request they had no option but to agree too, and now you’re complaining?

HR will move people to avoid potential situations – easier than confronting. OP probably need to front up to the fact he’s being managed out.

Probably true of this manager i am less sure it is a HR decision tbh

2. Continuing to train the others – perhaps they were getting returns there and they were performing

a guess with no evidence to support it…perhaps the current manager cannot spot talent or rewards arse lickers above talent

3. Current manager has higher standards?

No proof

4. Man down, I would expect more from everyone

reasonable so why has he had work taken from him?

5. Hours flex to a point, departmental cover is important – perhaps him rolling in at 10 (though he agreed to 9.45) doesn’t fit with operational requirements. Or sets unwanted precedents.

perhaps you should familiarise yourself with the law on flexible working and consider the precedent sey by the others there who already do this?

6. Claiming two hours overtime is petty in any position toward any kind of responsibility. I would not expect a manager to be paid or claim overtime. Shop floor/factory people fine. I’m presuming this isnt a Saturday job in a bike shop.

Would you be fine with paying someone for taking a three hour lunch break then?

7. I’m just putting an employers point across, one eyed or not, it’s clear you’re not exactly in a position to be considering from this angle.

I Dont know what this means

It all sounds a bit juvenile and whingey to me; pissing about over a few hours and ‘she likes them better than me’.

so you are saying that if you worked overtime and everyone else got paid but you that you would think this was fine…is that really what your “mature” adult view is?

what would you do if they said no?

Pointed out the law I presume

Sounds like you presented them with a request they had no option but to agree too, and now you’re complaining?

He is not complaining about that he is complaining about something else

What a strange thread this is with straw clutching to make some rather odd “points”

How very grown up of you and thankfully non “whingey”

HR departments advise management on HR issues – the changing of roles is an HR issue, avoiding things like constructive dismissal and trying to manage out an under performing employee is an HR issue.
On the points where you say ‘no proof’ etc, correct, as mentioned I’m putting across the other side of the argument. No proof for what the OP is saying, just his opinion.
If you think everyone gets paid overtime then clearly we’re from different worlds.
Crikey put it in more simple terms for you.

Junkyard, you’ve appointed yourself the defender of the poor down trodden worker, but there just might be a different side to the story. I’ve lots of experience of this, and I don’t think you have.

7. I’m just putting an employers point across, one eyed or not, it’s clear you’re not exactly in a position to be considering from this angle.

I Dont know what this means

What he’s trying to say is that I don’t have any experience of considering scenarios from an employers perspective. He’s wrong. However, I’ve mostly worked for companies where a healthy employer/employee relationship is concomitant to success.

If you think everyone gets paid overtime then clearly we’re from different worlds.

But if several people do get paid overtime as in this case, yet one of those is not actually allowed to take advantage of that fact, you don’t see a problem?

time to close?

OP hope the fil is ok.

Crikey crikey, didn’t Junkyard say he was a union rep? so perhaps some experience in this field?

and wrecker, kudos for that ‘working to the clock’ question.

Crikey crikey, didn’t Junkyard say he was a union rep? so perhaps some experience in this field?

Hmmm, I’ve met lots of those too, some good, some less so.

The issues that this kind of thing present often don’t reach Union reps, in my experience they end up grumbling along while I try to get on with my job.

Junkyard, you’ve appointed yourself the defender of the poor down trodden worker, but there just might be a different side to the story. I’ve lots of experience of this, and I don’t think you have.

I defer to your detailed analysis and conclusion he is juevinle and whinegy for expecting the company to honour the terms and conditions of his employment and objecting to others getting it for TOIL and him not.
Considering how strong a position this is I am at a loss to understand why you have decided to debate my experience rather than your well founded conclusion
FWIW I am also a manager as well as union rep so I have a foot in both camps.
Often I know things I cannot say to the “other side.
I see both roles as advocating tbh and neither is necessarily my personal view.
In this case personally I feel that employment is goverened by certain rules as laid out in your contract. As these rules are made by the company it is not unreasonable they follow their own rules- try ignoring yours like turning up or lunch break times and see how flexible they are
FWIW even if he is a shit employee then they will have rules to manage this and they should follow those rather than “manage” out using illegal and non contractual methods as that is neither lawful, fair or good management.

I’m not going to comment on other posts but just mention something somebody once said to me and really hit home. Regarding life you have to look at what’s important to YOU, if that means money then by all means burn the midnight oil and try to get on, if it’s travel then find a job which moves you around…if it’s family then find a job which fits with them, one with flexible hours/home working etc… From what you’ve said your kids and extended family are (obviously) a big part of your life, and rightly so, and your time away now is only going to compound this. If it was me I’d be finding something which fit for me and my family, not those people that in two years you will have forgotten.

Be brave, be selfish and trust your gut. Hope everything with the old man is ok!

Unfortunately we don’t have the other side of the story.

I wonder how that would read?

Your being performance managed out. All the tell tale signs are evident.

Keep your head down and apply for other stuff like mad!!

It may even help short term if you are (percieved) as being being pleasant and agreeable whilst you sort yourself out. Pushing back ( or at least creating this impression )may add fuel to the fire.

Important thing is to remember not to take it personally, and get out with your confidence and sanity intact.

Im willing to give the OP the benefit of the doubt on this one

Ive spent the last 4 years working with an absolute nightmare of a boss, (also university- the HR departments are usually useless ime)
she was rude bordering on spitefull, objected to every bit of annual leave- she never took a single day herself and resented anyone else doing so!, petty in so many ways and regularly had meltdowns in the lab/office/tea room
the problem was that she pulled in a lot of grants and published well, in a time when funding is very very tight

my experience of similar situations has been good if you have a decent union rep/senior management/ HR department
as in wayward boss will get put in their place and be forced to grow up

and disastrous when you dont
as in employees forced out, entire team disbanded! breakdowns etc

my advice to the OP would be suck it up for now, secure another job, get the f out of there and hide a mackerell behind her filing cabinet on your last day

keep your chin up and do not stress over this out of work.

Your being performance managed out. All the tell tale signs are evident.

Keep your head down and apply for other stuff like mad!!

It may even help short term if you are (percieved) as being being pleasant and agreeable whilst you sort yourself out. Pushing back ( or at least creating this impression )may add fuel to the fire.

Important thing is to remember not to take it personally, and get out with your confidence and sanity intact.

Sound advice. The pendulum will swing when you get another role as you can then move into the “I am in this for the sport” approach which being skickly sweet, working to the minute and being throroughly lovely but firm creates a really confusing passive/aggresive situation. All because you don’t need to care.

also worth keeping a (paper!!)written logbook at home ( and compiled at home!!)of the injustices that are occuring with dates and severity etc so you can get some perspective and view of the situation, without getting drawn into it further at work.

definately keep things written down

personally I made an effort to arrange everything by email, no matter how trivial it seems
any face to face meeting I would helpfully write up a summary and send to her (and anyone else involved) immediately after

I am also a manager as well as union rep

I had an ex union rep work for me once. PITA with all the same kind of ‘would you pay me if i took a 3 hour lunch break’ bs. Managed him out. I think he’s still unemployed. I have a really enthusiast worker in his place who is progressing well due to his desire to do a little more, learn and not work to rule like some dinosaur from the 80’s.

You point re lunch breaks is moot – I don’t care how long peoples lunch breaks are as long as they deliver on their objectives. I don’t care if they have to leave early one day for something. What I do care is that of their own volition they do whatever is required to ensure their work does not suffer (take a bit home, come in early next day etc). That kind of trust from an employer and responsibility from an employee may be alien to you with your work to rule mindset. In fact many of my staff don’t take lunch breaks as they’re engaged in their work which I hope they find rewarding. In fact I think you only really get that engagement when work is rewarding.

I think the point you are missing damo is that the manager in this case isnt treating all her staff equally

and from what the OP has said shes not following the T&Cs shes agreed to
just another case of a bad manager

In fact many of my staff don’t take lunch breaks as they’re engaged in their work which I hope they find rewarding. In fact I think you only really get that engagement when work is rewarding.

Or the department is really badly run and there is far to much work to do within the contracted hours.

O.P sounds like its time to move on. You are never going to turn this round. You’re manager wants rid of you. Is it worth a battle? I doubt it, you need the reference (although at my place the only thing they will ever say on a reference is a confirmation of employment dates)
Start looking now, well in your lunch break.. And don’t use company computers, Internet time.. Just in case they are looking for any excuse

I had an ex union rep work for me once. PITA with all the same kind of ‘would you pay me if i took a 3 hour lunch break’ bs.

Would you pay someone for not working then? Companies often expect work for nothing so it shows that it is all take and no give. I assume that is why you did not like it as the answer is obvious.

That kind of trust from an employer and responsibility from an employee may be alien to you with your work to rule mindset.

Give and takes is essential and to suggest I have a work to rule mindset is BS. IME employment works best when employers and employees get along well and no one takes the piss. As a Union rep i see about an even amount of staff taking the piss and often I am managing the staff rather than the employer. It has to be give and take though- like cougar notes if i work 45 minutes late dont moan if i come in late one day – that sort of flexibility but it is often unidirectional.
FWIW the issue you should be defending is this
If i work for two hours and my contract says i have two hours to take and my manager gives everyone two hours and me one how would you describe this as a management style or defend it.

In fact many of my staff don’t take lunch breaks as they’re engaged in their work which I hope they find rewarding.

Yes I am never surprised to see how many employers will ignore employment law whilst maintaining that the staff who do it are “happy “
…of course the style or organisation does not expect they do it and all do it freely as they are happy

landcruiser – Member

As your Manager / Boss the claiming the 2 hours thing would have pissed me off too. EDIT: Being flexible has to work BOTH ways.

Well, I guess realising you have a problem is the first step to fixing it 😉

The OP already HAS been flexible, they worked the extra hours as required. Expecting to be paid for extra work done is not inflexible!

Would you pay someone for not working then? Companies often expect work for nothing so it shows that it is all take and no give.

You keep harping on about this but when companies show flexibility then they are in effect doing just that. When I ignore somebody coming in late or leaving early or taking a long lunch etc then I am paying them for doing nothin in that instance. I take a broad approach. As above if they hit deadlines work hard and show flexibility when I/the company need it I dont care about a bit of time hear and there.

You on the other hand need it formalised and can only view flexibility when it is written down because as has been pointed out it is your “work to rule mindset” I on the other hand “know it when I see it” and so do my team. It has never caused conflict and they all know the “boundaries” if we have to write it down because somebody takes the piss then everybody loses and they all know that.
Writing things like this down just keep people like you in a cushy number.

If i work for two hours and my contract says i have two hours to take and my manager gives everyone two hours and me one how would you describe this as a management style or defend it.

Fine, as I said earlier if it is a more formal arrangement then where is the record? if it exists then it should be applied. Who keeps this record and why cant the OP access or refer to it?

And whilst we are boiling the whole issue down it appears to be a single hour we are talking about here.

All this over a couple of ‘owed’ hours? Jesus wept! 🙄

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAaWvVFERVA[/video]

You appear to have 2 options

a) Look for another job, then leave.
b) Spend a lot of time whining about the injustice of it all, while the situation deteriorates further, before having a moment of clarity and resorting to a)

Binners I would add a c: based on the fact, well you never know!

Forget the hour owed. Think about what you can offer, work hard and change your mindset and make an effort to build a better relationship with your boss as I suspect you may be “unlucky” with your next one as well

Writing things like this down just keep people like you in a cushy number.

I have no idea what this even means – it is such a vauge insult

Did you read my post above?
I agree that flexibility from both sides with good management and good employees is the best approach….the scenario here seems to be lacking in much of this and that is why we have contracts and rules. It s for when folk fall out and the company made them so they should be able to stick to them.
I am not work to rule but I am not working for free just like they will not pay me to sit at home

Rather than this being about me – I did predict earlier folk would have a pop at me instead of discussing the issue

However you need to defend the giving everyone two hours but the OP one – which you accept is not fair

Imagine you were flexible with all employees but one – would you consider this good management?
What do you think that employee will do but return to the contract and moan.

TO repeat the blindingly obvious work is best when everyone is happy and we all get alaong. This involves flexibility and fairness on both sides
Do you think the manager is being fair here?competent?> reasonable?
No me neither

EDIT:

Forget the hour owed.

Do you think the manager will forget he turned up late due to his car troubles…where is the flexibility you implore us all to have?

As i keep saying the flexibility is often unidirectional

Forget the hour owed. Think about what you can offer, work hard and change your mindset and make an effort to build a better relationship with your boss as I suspect you may be “unlucky” with your next one as well

Is he a shareholder? If the answer is no they why care. I work every hour under the sun, but the the company I work for promised (and just has) rewarded the employees with shares for their effort. The most important question anywhere is ‘what’s in it for me?’ if the answer is ‘nothing’ then don’t do it. Your employer wouldn’t.

Rather than this being about me – I did predict earlier folk would have a pop at me instead of discussing the issue

More me, me, me stuff. Its not about you but you started with comments like this on page 1

You know sometimes I am ashamed to be on this site as no difficult personal issue seems off limits to trolling or half arsed reading if I want to be kind to you.
I am not bothering to feed any more of this
Pretty low IMHO so you can go OT and have a pop at me now as well

I’ve mentioned it twice and I’ll try once more. Where is the traceability for this 2 hours if the process is formalised within the business?

but I am not working for free just like they will not pay me to sit at home

Answered this as well. That would mean reading though.

if the answer is ‘nothing’ then don’t do it. Your employer wouldn’t.

I dont think even the OP is working for “nothing” however he has a responsibility to create a better working environment. You wont do that by simply “working to rule” and viewing every task through this mindset.
You could but it would be an unhappy and unrewarding place to exist in. You have some responsibility if only for your own sanity.

surfer – Member

Forget the hour owed. Think about what you can offer

Too simple. One of the things the OP can offer is the flexibility of working extra hours, but it turns out, it gains them nothing. Now you can look at that as a single issue and forget it, maybe it is. But maybe it’s a symptom in itself.

Maybe I’m being unfair and just judging by my own experiences but mainly what I think when I hear things like this is “taking for granted”- you do more and it’s not noticed, or found fault with, you don’t do more and it’s the end of the world. Can’t do right, in that situation. In this case, the OP’s working extra hours has been turned into a negative. So faced with that it gets hard to be up for it.

I’ve mentioned it twice and I’ll try once more. Where is the traceability for this 2 hours if the process is formalised within the business?

Why not explain what good management it is to give everyone present 2 hours and one employee one hour?
Please explain why you think he should let it go but the employer should not let the turning up late go?
Please explain how this is legal give the contract?
Please explain how this is good management?
Please explain how the employer is being flexible here?

he has a responsibility to create a better working environment. You wont do that by simply “working to rule” and viewing every task through this mindset.

You keep saying this which ignores the fact the manager was inflexible about turning up late and wanted an extra hour then as well [ they could have said have that for your TOIL. make the time up when you can etc], the manager was inflexible [ to the point of a contractual breach] about TOIL and only to this employee.
You now want to blame the employee [ and me ] for inflexibility and working to rule.
As neither side is being flexible both sides need to do what the contract says. DO you really think the manager is doing this?

They work for an organisation that makes rules and then they fail to follow them and then you accuse the employee of “work to rule” mindset. this is not give an take it is take and take some more whilst giving to every employee but you. Is this really good management? Do you really want to defend it?

Not really interested in the big hitter personal sarccy shit tbh lets just discuss the issue as i am happy for it not to be abiut me and I all i need is for you to not mention my “mindset”

From your description it would seem you are being managed out – take the hint and start to look for opportunities elsewhere. With one HR issue already behind you, and another now developing it would be foolhardy to expect that you would be able to continue on and develop successfully within your current role/business. You may want be naively principled and stick it out to prove your point/value/argument – but frankly only an idiot would do so. You have a short career – don’t waste any more of it here and move on as soon as a good opportunity arises.

If someone causes the business hassle (you!) as with your previous HR issues and now this one; irrespective of whether your stance was justified people will not remember that you were correct – what gets remembered is that you were argumentative or caused friction within the team and were the focus of discontent. Being right is meaningless in this sense hence people should be very careful before picking fights requiring third party arbitration. Sucking up and dealing with bullshit is an important career skill.

Perhaps worth asking yourself whether you have had further issues in the past with your previous roles – as the common variable (i.e. the person) in a series of negative events is more often than not the root cause of such problems.

Perhaps try and look at the situation from the companies perspective before you ask or request owed benefits or additional flexibility. The most useless and minimally acceptable employees are those that do the bare minimum of their contractual requirements, work to rule and offer minimal flexibility to the employer. It reeks of no ambition and I would look to push the employee out at the first opportunity. Flexibility (for the benefit of the company – not you!) and the ability to be prepared to do a little extra unpaid may not get rewarded immediately but don’t ever expect a promotion or a pay rise if that is your attitude.

I’d also mention that you should try never to bring your personal life to work in general.

In all I get the feeling that perhaps the best advice is best given by this NSFW video: Chopper Reid

Human nature – if you’re good at your job your boss will be more flexible. If you’re inefficient, unhelpful or difficult to work with, then your boss will be less flexible – especially where it’s a less formal thing (rather than a formal clocking system).

We’ve only got one side of the story. Well apart from Junkyard who seems to know everything about the OPs situation…

I only know what is posted here and have made no assumptions – well I assumed folk would attack me rather than debate the issue….did i get that wrong?
We can guess at the mangers motivations for giving everyone TOIL and not the OP if you like but it wont make them a good, fair or legal manager.

well I assumed folk would attack me rather than debate the issue….did i get that wrong?

Still about you then 🙄

As neither side is being flexible both sides need to do what the contract says.

OK but all of your above post is obfuscation. You move the goalposts and you use terms interchangeably. If a contract exists or a process as I have said on 3 occasions where is it? You keep referring to it yourself so why doesnt the OP use it? Who tracks the hours? I have worked in place with flexi time and it has to be logged an monitored. why hasnt it happened in this case?

personal sarccy shit tbh

Although you were happy with it earlier.