Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 44 total)
  • Alzheimer's and driving
  • AdamW
    Free Member

    Hive mind of STW, help!

    84 year old father in law has Alzheimer’s and was recently called in for a driving assessment. They said he was unsafe but *may* be OK if he took additional lessons and another assessment successfully. After much arguing with his approval we moved his car onto our drive so he wouldn’t wander off. He was told at the drivability place that he shouldn’t drive until this is done.

    He’s already forgotten what they told him and now thinks that after one lesson (which took his daughter ages arguing with him to get him to do) he’s fine to drive and is getting verbal and shouting down the phone etc. demanding his car back as he has forgotten why it was put there in the first place. He ignores all discussion about how he shouldn’t drive until he has a successful assessment (he argues that he still has a license) and that his insurance would most probably be invalid if the insurers found out he was advised not to drive (he argues that he doesn’t care as others drive without insurance).

    To be honest he *is* unsafe and no-one wants to get in the car with him (I refuse). He was caught turning into major roads without looking (on his assessment) and keeps forgetting the local roads he has driven around for over 50 years. His driving is erratic (last time I was in the car with him it was very jerky repositioning as we were driving along). If he wants to kill himself in his car, fine, that’s his issue, but I’m worried about other people getting hurt.

    Obviously the car is his property and to be honest he’s such a bully I don’t mind standing up to him but I am worried about the legal position of his family. No-one can get through to him and in his bullying manner it’s the usual “I’m right, everyone else is wrong!”.

    Is he legally allowed to drive? If not how do we get this through to him?
    Do I give him back the car as it belongs to him (I’m the only one that has insurance to cover a third person’s car and hence drive it back)? If he then hurts someone then what?
    Do local bobbies still have ‘words’? Is there a policeman/woman here who would know what I should do?
    Any ideas apart from just avoiding the phone? 😀

    And the drivability place was rubbish. They gave him the info verbally so he forgot everything about ten minutes after being there. His wife/my husband were there and had to remember stuff. Should have been written down (still awaiting report but the Christmas break meant no letters yet).

    Cougar
    Full Member

    Seems it’s pointless discussing as even if you’re successful he’ll have forgotten an hour later. My dad’s got dementia, it’s an arseache of a condition.

    I think I’d give him the car back, after first removing the coil lead.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    I have nothing specific to add other than sympathy, alzheimers is a godawful bastard of a thing.

    The legality of driving is a mess, my grandad was passed fit for driving even after he started suffering blackouts, luckily he was together enough to know he wasn’t safe and sold his car but if things had been just a little different… you can see how people take the official approval and roll with it, til they kill someone.

    Rockhopper
    Free Member

    Alzheimer’s is a notifiable condition and you must inform the DVLA. They will probably ask for a medical assessment which may result in the driving licence being revoked.

    Is this assessment the ones that’s just happened?

    https://www.gov.uk/driving-medical-conditions

    Muke
    Free Member

    Alzheimers is a godawful bastard of a thing.

    + 1000
    Luckily my mum never drove so this was one problem we didnt have to deal with.

    Lots of good advice in the Talking point forum on

    Alzheimers.org.uk

    Good luck

    AdamW
    Free Member

    @Rockhopper: he notified the DVLA when first diagnosed and they sent him a one year license. I think it has something like 4/5 months left and the assessment may have been triggered by his 84th birthday (shortly before). I guess it is the assessment that the DVLA invoked. He was told the assessment could give one of three answers ‘yes/no/maybe’ and he got the ‘maybe, with additional lessons’ which he is now ignoring.

    @Cougar: good idea, it may come to that but we’d have to get the car to his house then disable it.

    I feel for his wife, 83 years old, getting constant criticism and complaints. Dementia is agreed an awful disease. In his case it took the microscopic veneer of niceness and stripped it away as the first thing. Most of his friends now shun him as he just insults them and thinks he’s being funny. 🙁

    My auntie also has dementia. Its heartbreaking in that she constantly looks confused and doesn’t recognise me, even though she’s known me for all of my 47 years. She isn’t as bitter, however.

    timidwheeler
    Free Member

    I’m a police officer. A few years ago I went to a horrific fatal. An elderly driver had gone onto the wrong carriageway causing a head-on. The other driver was killed.
    I couldn’t look at the family of the elderly driver when they came to collect him, it was clear he wasn’t fit to drive but they did nothing to stop him.
    Do not give him back his car. Speak to the DVLA (and his insurance company) and get his licence revoked.
    Good luck, the law doesn’t really offer you much support but please do what is right.

    AdamW
    Free Member

    Hi Timidwheeler: thanks for this. This is what I want. The sad thing is he used to be mad on cars etc. so it is bound up in his personality and this is painful to see and his ranting about how good a driver he is. I’ve just seen ‘report someone to dvla’ on the DVLA website and will most probably do that to start. (link: https://emaildvla.direct.gov.uk/emaildvla/cegemail/directgov/en/drivers_med_03.html

    piedidiformaggio
    Free Member

    I think you know what the right answer is, which is he shouldn’t ever get behind the wheel again.

    Terrible disease, you have my sympathy

    cvilla
    Full Member

    Tricky situation I know as my mum had Alzheimers in her late 50’s died in early 60’s, luckily Dad drove so she did not have to go through that stage and again had Dad to look after her (luckily he retired about the same time).
    The shouty stage is like denial, I am fine etc I do not need Dr’s etc, just not understanding condition. Not much to add as above posts, worth seeing if there is a local group, they may be ale to offer support for family (rest-bite for his wife in future?) as well as your FiL and maybe can offer to drive him about, worth looking into, where abouts are you/FiL?
    There will be others locally and help is out there/here, keep talking.

    timidwheeler
    Free Member

    Good man.
    My Granddad died recently with Alzheimer’s. He was heartbroken when he lost his car, but it was the right thing to do.

    AdamW
    Free Member

    @cvilla: thanks for the support. He’s well in denial. In his assessment he was given five words to remember and recall ten minutes later and he failed every one, even after helpful prompts (“It’s a fruit you eat every day!” – said wife [banana]). His wife definitely needs respite but he won’t go anywhere or let her go anywhere without him. We’ve offered driving him/her about but it hits a wall of denial – he “doesn’t need it as he’s a good driver”. He doesn’t want to go to groups or a day centre etc.

    He’s deffo not getting the car back unless we’re told to legally. I just hope that if he calls the police they won’t let him drive the thing away!

    jojoA1
    Free Member

    Has anyone got Power of Attorney for him? If so, they would have the legal right to remove the car. Is there a sympathetic GP involved who could have a chat? Or better still a specialist dementia team doctor? There’s also the report to DVLA and then to police route. Once reported, call the police if he goes in the car. If he hasn’t met the conditions made for continuing to drive, he is ‘illegal’
    Re other life decisions and management of affairs, look into Powers of Attorney and/or Guardianship (depending on whether he is deemed to have mental ‘capacity’) so future issues can be dealt with by spouse, family or other appointed person.

    Edit: it’s not ‘denial’ as we know it. It’s called not having ‘insight’. He is cognitively unable to see the problem, not unwilling. It is unlikely to be a stage of coming terms with the disease as some experience with major ode trauma. Approach carer support agencies for his wife and get the family genned up.
    Good luck it’s a tough journey and a cruel disease.

    AdamW
    Free Member

    @jojoA1: thanks – my partner and his sister and considering this at the moment but I guess it would have to be done soon so the legality of him being capable of understanding what he’s signing would be OK. If he signs (he is a really contrary awkward git even when he was OK!). The only reason I’m involved really is because I am the only person who can legally drive the car with his consent (my husband’s insurance doesn’t cover him for driving third party’s cars with their consent). It would be *me* handing the car back due to this and I’m not going to do it.

    simons_nicolai-uk
    Free Member

    Horrible. My father has Alz’ at 84 and was told he could no longer drive almost a year ago. Still rants about it and driving/parking/etc is one of the things he regularly gets obsessed about.

    The whole driving licence thing is completely screwed up – as you get older you should be required to have regular, and stringent, tests but there’s nothing in place. I’m trying to get through to my mother that there will come a time when she can no longer drive either but it’s a brick wall.

    See Daily Hate article from a few weeks back. Nowhere does it question whether she should still be driving.

    jojoA1
    Free Member

    Yes, POA need the person to be ‘capable’ but other legal routes can be taken if he’s deemed ‘incapable’ I think it’s called the same in England. It’s Guardianship (financial and or welfare) or an intervention order (for powers relating to a single transaction or process eg selling a house or decision on place of residence etc) in Scotland.

    crazy-legs
    Full Member

    Had the same with both my maternal grandparents.

    My grandma didn’t drive at all and she “went” before my grandpa so that wasn’t a problem (well, not in the driving sense, it was very distressing to everyone for the obvious reasons).
    She became very confused – didn’t know who we were, where she was etc.

    My grandfather became very stubborn and rude and actually quite violent sometimes. The only way he finally stopped driving (after repeated nagging from my Mum and from his neighbours) was because the insurance co refused to insure him anymore. He’d had so many minor shunts and collisions (mostly with parked cars, walls, fences etc) that they simply pulled the plug on him. At that point, a neighbour helped him sell the car. It took him a long time to come to terms with it and accept that he was too dangerous to drive. You’re in the middle of that “coming to terms with it” phase at the moment – stick in there and don’t give in.

    To try and add some humour into it, he’ll likely have forgotten he’s had the argument with you so he’ll just have the same one. Keep telling him you’re having some work done on it and he can have it back next week if it makes him feel better at that moment.

    Cougar
    Full Member

    The sad thing is he used to be mad on cars etc. so it is bound up in his personality

    Get him a Playstation? Can drive to his heart’s content then.

    vickypea
    Free Member

    My dad has Alzheimer’s and was in denial about it for years and refused to go to the doctor even though it was clear that something was badly wrong. He was unsafe driving but he viewed stopping driving as an affront to his masculinity. I was on the verge of reporting him to the DVLA, when we finally got him to the doctor, who told him to stop driving. He was devastated, but I’m sure an accident was inevitable.

    coolhandluke
    Free Member

    My dad has dementia, quite early stages but he sensibly gave up driving a number of years ago, of his own accord as he realised his eyesight wasn’t spectacular and he was getting easily confused.

    He’s 87 now, not driven off about 6 years I guess.

    At least his decision to stop driving was his.

    Do the right thing, if your FiL doesn’t want to.

    project
    Free Member

    I couldn’t look at the family of the elderly driver when they came to collect him, it was clear he wasn’t fit to drive but they did nothing to stop him.

    Please Adam ensure the car is undrivable, could you live with yourself if he drove and injured someone.

    Let the tyres down, puncture them on his drive,anything to stop it being driven,perhaps if its on his drive he may be happy to have it back.

    Alzheimers is horrible for family members who have to offer support,the patient is so out of the loop theyre unaware of whats wrong,but its so upsetting for family,please dont inflict any more stress on your family or someone elses family.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    jojoA1 – Member

    Edit: it’s not ‘denial’ as we know it. It’s called not having ‘insight’. He is cognitively unable to see the problem, not unwilling.

    Spot on- I tried to say something similar but couldn’t get it down.

    eskay
    Full Member

    A dreadful disease.

    My grandfather was already quite bad with it and my dad wanted to stop him driving but my auntie did not. She renewed the tax on his vehicle for another year against my dad’s wishes.

    We had a call one day from a couple who had found him in Totterdown Bristol (about 10 miles from his house and he had no reason to be there). He didn’t know where he was or where he lived. They had found him wandering near his car which still had the engine on.

    They very kindly drove him home and called my parents (he had some documents in the car with his name on and they somehow got dad’s number at his bungalow).

    It could have been so different if he had an accident.

    After that my auntie finally saw sense.

    Tragic way for someone to end up. He was an incredibly intelligent man, he built a yacht when he was younger (he was a cabinet maker). He was a keen cyclist, loved tending his bee hives and left a lasting impression on me.

    When my gran died and he was left alone I used to drop off my cycling mags to him and we would often look through them together (with his disapproval at the cost of everything!).

    I have many things that he made and I cherish them to this day.

    matther01
    Free Member

    AdamW – not drving related, but help organise a Lasting Power of Attorney now before it is too late like someone else has mentioned. You don’t want to end up with a Deputyship order!! You’ll find info at the Office of the Public Guardian part of the Ministry of Justice website.

    seosamh77
    Free Member

    Sounds like he should have his license revoked. Can’t see it ending well if that doesn’t happen.

    DrP
    Full Member

    Is he legally allowed to drive?

    Th law/medical law on dementia and driving is that if the person is significantly impaired, they shouldn’t be driving.
    This includes a lot of the features you’ve described in the OP.

    Driving is a privilege, not a right.
    Unfortunately many people with mental/medical conditions forget this.

    Basically, if you are concerned then you can inform the DVLA, or get his GP to inform them.

    From the information you’ve given, if it were me, I’d review and assess (with yourselves as info too) and consider telling him straight that the DVLA will be informed.

    DrP

    matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    We had this with two family members. What jojoA1 said is spot on.
    Family member 1 – keys were taken, car disabled in the garage. Legal power of attorney was then sought and car (many months later) sold.
    My grandfather was still able to understand, so with help of a friendly gp and local police, he was ‘advised’ not to drive, gp took the keys one day, and family meeting sorted that day. I sold the car the next day…. His feet didn’t touch the floor, and it was a decision he had no say in – but he had enough respect (for police and gp) to let it happen.

    allthepies
    Free Member

    Horrible situation to be in, could be any of us and may well be in the future.

    timidwheeler’s advice based upon (sad) experience seems to be they way to go.

    woody2000
    Full Member

    You have my sympathies OP. My FIL has early onset dementia (he’s 64, diagnosed @60), and one of the first things we noticed was the odd bump and scrape on his car that he couldn’t explain. Thankfully, once it had been diagnosed he was not interested in driving, so we didn’t have to go through the mess you’re currently experiencing. It’s unbelievable that people with this horrible condition are actually considered fit to drive in a lot of cases, when a lot of the time they can’t even remember what they’re in the car for 🙁

    If I was in your position, I’d just disable the car if you can. Good luck, whatever you do 🙂

    emaroid
    Free Member

    Hi Adam
    I’ve been in a similar situation with my mother who was diagnosed 6 months ago at 60 with early onset fronto temporal dementia, its mainly behavioural, her memory is amazing, so it was hard getting her to the dr then the consultant due to the ‘denial’ period discussed above. Plus the dr questions of what day and date is it really didn’t uncover her type of dementia, took 12 months to get the diagnosis.

    Definitely sort the LPA https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney – Best advice I had, I managed to sort my mothers just before she was diagnosed and she was happy to sign it after a few months of discussion, plus she almost lost the house due to a miscalculation on the mortgage and confusion with the lender changing. Its only £240 for both financial and health plus the forms are straight forward, lots of help from public guardian office, much easier than deputyship.

    This forum is great and has loads of information and loads of knowledgeable and helpful people, also good to talk about how you’re dealing with it all as it helps, or if you’re gnar you just go riding instead;
    http://forum.alzheimers.org.uk/forum.php

    My mothers condition has vastly improved due to a fine balance of medication and she’s still capable of looking after herself. Fortunately she’d never learned to drive, but it still horrible when you find out she’s been off somewhere on the bus or waiting for a neighbour to call to say she’s been abusive…. hasn’t been since meds, talk to your local community psychiatric nurse/doctors. Our other worry is my auntie, my mothers twin is now showing similar signs, but she still drives for work so I can see this being an issue later.

    Feel free to message me if you need any further information as I’ve had to deal with everybody from Jobcentre, council, gas, elec… actually bills were harder to sort than the rest. I managed to sort bank account by just going to the local branch and showing the LPA. One other thing, when you get the LPA, go to the jobcentre and if you ask nicely they’ll make you a certified copy which you can send out to firms, so you keep the original.

    gribble
    Free Member

    My mum has early onset as well. She is 63, but has now had it for 10 yrs at least. The DVLA wrote and told her she could not drive, which she almost seemed relieved about. My parents lived in a rural place (she is now in a home), so no license was a big PIA. However, it was the right thing.

    My granddad also had dementia and on short journeys my grandmother used to give him directions, sort of like a copilot in a rally car. She was registered blind, even back then. It was long time past that the car should have gone and in both instances it would have been tragic if anything bad came from their poor driving.

    Please see the support links above and definitely second the DVLA being first port of call, second power of attorney. Good luck, as above absolutely horrid disease.

    globalti
    Free Member

    My Dad was diagnosed with premature Dementia at the age of 50; we got the first inkling that all was not well a few months before when he drove straight through a red light so by the time of the diagnosis he was already a danger to the public. His licence was taken off him at the time of the diagnosis.

    Your FIL is of a generation who will respect the authorities if his GP says he must stop driving and is recommending that his licence be removed. It will be a huge blow to his pride, especially is driving is probably one of the last solitary things he can enjoy as his physical powers wane. Why not use the money from selling the car to pay for a couple of pay and drive days on private land? He can do Land Rover driving in a private quarry or drive a truck or something fast on an airfield. His ability to control the vehicle will probably last longer than his intellectual faculties.

    AdamW
    Free Member

    Update for those who are interested.

    Partner contacted the drivability place and discussed the rules and fed back information (losing his way, hitting the kerb, bullying his wife for money for a new car) and she was a little shocked.

    Upshot is she’s going to write a letter to FiL stating the rules which are:

    Not allowed to drive until a retest has been successful.
    He has two weeks from today to finish his training and arrange for a retest.

    Now we need to arrange support for MiL who is a frail 83yo and is basically emotionally abused by him with constant verbal assaults. 🙁

    konagirl
    Free Member

    constant verbal assaults

    You mention your FiL’s behaviour a few times. Please be aware that this is another unfortunate symptom / result of Alzheimer’s and dementia (or brain injury). See the Alzheimer’s Society.

    I would really push to get your MiL some respite, for example having your FiL taken to a day care centre once a week, it may be that their GP and social services aren’t aware of the severity of your FiL’s Alzheimer’s since it can change quite rapidly and particularly if your MiL hasn’t brought up his behaviour.

    rewski
    Free Member

    Quite alarming and in a way reassuring so many of you having similar experiences. I lost my mum back in November after 8+ years coping with Alzheimer’s. It is indeed a dreadful disease, in some ways it’s kinder to the sufferer than those around witnessing the person they love fade away. My mum was lucky in some ways, aricept and anti depressants helped, and she maintained a placid and calm personality, so many get angry and violent, but the moments of frustration that she couldn’t remember simple tasks was unbearable to watch. We did see funny side sometimes, a good coping mechanism, the later stages were to be frank quite horrid, I felt terrible when mum went into full time care and visits became quite difficult for everyone.

    I wish you all the best and take all the help you get offered, respite is so important for the carer, it can be a long road.

    Happy to offer any advice.

    vickypea
    Free Member

    It’s a heartbreaking condition, slowly robbing the sufferer of their personality and dignity. I hate it! My dad’s really struggling to join in conversations now and he forgets so many words, he struggles to make himself understood. My mum has developed the patience of a saint.

    AdamW
    Free Member

    A final update with regards to the FiL and his driving.

    A second training lesson was had yesterday but it was cut short. The FiL wasn’t taking any notice of speed limits or other instruction. When he was asked what the speed limit was where he was currently driving he said he didn’t know as he never normally drove there (either didn’t look at speed signs or forgot what he already saw). The instructor has given up as he refuses to accept anything he is told (part of his lifetime bullying attitude).

    So he is to lose his license. While it is sad for him, it it better for other road-users.

    We are now awaiting the explosion when he is told. 🙁

    project
    Free Member

    Best news for all other road users Adam,but oh so sad for you and your relatives who now have to suffer with him.

    cbmotorsport
    Free Member

    My father is 80 and was diagnosed with Alzheimers a number of years ago. He is now in full tme care. Firstly, I feel for you all, it’s an awful disease, and very hard to deal with when the powers of reason and persuasion aren’t at your disposal.

    My father drove for a while in the early stages, but we called a hault to it when he started to park his car down side streets and then forget where he’d parked it. We had a couple of occasions where we spent 4 or 5 hours looking for the car. The final straw was when he returned home with a smashed up front wing, bumper, light etc. He couldn’t remember what had happened, where it happened and who he had hit.

    It’s going to be a slog, and the persons ‘able minded’ personality, definitely dictates how their Alzheimers manifests itself. If he is bullish or aggressive by nature in any way it’s going to a long haul.

    I would advise that the minute you are concerned about the safety/wellbeing of anyone connected, you should bite the bullet and put him into care. My biggest regret is that my mother cared for my father for so long, and lost 10 years of her retirement, when she should have been enjoying life.

    Good luck.

    cbmotorsport
    Free Member

    I would really push to get your MiL some respite, for example having your FiL taken to a day care centre once a week, it may be that their GP and social services aren’t aware of the severity of your FiL’s Alzheimer’s since it can change quite rapidly and particularly if your MiL hasn’t brought up his behaviour.

    This. Respite is crucial. You also need to be really quite firm with the powers that be. It wasn’t until my father escaped from respite and nearly got run over, and then grabbed a nurses wrist and hurt her that we felt we got the proper support.

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