Interesting even if you don’t agree:
http://grumbling-dragon.blogspot.co.uk/2016/09/dear-europe-open-letter.html

Yes quite an interesting analogy.

It’s interesting, but it’s an entertainment piece, not some carefully researched articular on post-brexit negotiation that haven’t started yet.

We should be careful not to over-read a single German Minister statement about “making the UK pay” I’m sure some people at the EU feel that way, but he’s just a minster of a single country, he has an opinion, but he doesn’t speak for the whole.

Anyway, the EU is far more like a business arrangement than a home – I know of very successful businesses ran by people who genuinely hate each other. I don’t like everyone I’ve ever worked with, I’ve loathed many people I’ve worked with, still works.

I voted to remain, but that article sums up the main reasons I was considering voting to leave.

I voted to remain and that article was pretty crap.

Badly thought out and badly written. Otherwise simply trolling for entertainment.

Imagine their surprise that an organisation set up to look after its members, wants to make it clear that leaving (which will damage other European countries as well as the UK) is a bad thing and not without consequences. Not the sharpest tool in the box really.

*Edit*

Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.
Must read posts properly to avoid looking like an idiot.

😳

^^^ your forgiven 😉 ^^^

their – belonging to or associated with the people or things previously mentioned or easily identified.

Their – I think I got the right one CFH. But you have me doubting myself now.

Their surprise (I had put his surprise originally, then thought have I checked the author is male. Sounds male to me from the writing style, but I didn’t check) …

The scales are lifted from my eyes. I now see you very differently, European Union, to how I did just a few short weeks ago.

@igm what on earth makes you think the EEC was set up to “look after” it’s members ? It was an economic project to attempt to counter the power of fhe US, impossible imo with a ragtag bunch of vested interests. The EU has failed at virtually every level and in the most important regard the euro it’s an unmitigated disaster which will cost Germany and France alone €100bn and €75bn on the basis a Greek default can be contained and much more if not. We are the onky country with an EU trade deficit making a net contribution, they should be paying us for access to our market.

Now that we are gone the EU is going to have to find the £10bn we paid in net each year. The EU wanted us to stay as it was good for THEM

My parents represent the classic Labour voting Leavers. Having voted IN in 1975 they have felt lied to ever since over political rather than an economic community, couldn’t wait to vote Leave.

It’s not difficult to see to see our membership of the EU like an abusive relationship with a person is too afraid to Leave and they certainly tried to frighten us.

The most powerful argument Remainers had was that the EU “kept control” of a Tory Government which is pretty defeatist if you are a Lib Dem or Labour voter. It’s admitting you cannot win

What a load of rubbish.

Speaking of which:

@igm what on earth makes you think the EEC was set up to “look after” it’s members ? It was an economic project to attempt to counter the power of fhe US, impossible imo with a ragtag bunch of vested interests. The EU has failed at virtually every level and in the most important regard the euro it’s an unmitigated disaster which will cost Germany and France alone €100bn and €75bn on the basis a Greek default can be contained and much more if not. We are the onky country with an EU trade deficit making a net contribution, they should be paying us for access to our market.

Now that we are gone the EU is going to have to find the £10bn we paid in net each year. The EU wanted us to stay as it was good for THEM

My parents represent the classic Labour voting Leavers. Having voted IN in 1975 they have felt lied to ever since over political rather than an economic community, couldn’t wait to vote Leave.

It’s not difficult to see to see our membership of the EU like an abusive relationship with a person is too afraid to Leave and they certainly tried to frighten us.

The most powerful argument Remainers had was that the EU “kept control” of a Tory Government which is pretty defeatist if you are a Lib Dem or Labour voter. It’s admitting you cannot win

😆

But you’re already telling us, and the rest of the world, that you’re gonna make us pay for leaving you. Not necessarily because you want us to suffer, but you want to make it clear to the other people you’re in a relationship with that leaving will hurt.

THat was exactly what was always going to happen

Some foolish Brexiters argued that we were so big and so powerful and so important they would be unable to not trade with us

rHe reality is the deal they will offer us is stay and pay accepting everything or piss off and have nothing

Apparently this was “bullying” by them as lets be honest anyone who want help us have out cake and eat must be a bully

I could not read it after that as I found it a bit childish

@igm what on earth makes you think the EEC was set up to “look after” it’s members ? It was an economic project to attempt to counter the power of fhe US

Agreed. Thank you for answering your own question.

The euro? Well a common currency without common fiscal policy was probably a bad idea – but there are two solutions to that. That said I did love the SNP’s comment that unlike the foreign centralised and largely unaccountable to Scots voters government at Westminster, the EU was a club for independent nation states – wry smiles aside that would probably not be true if the euro was allowed to play out properly.

As for the ongoing finances situation, we’ll see. The economic indicators are at best confused at the moment, no matter what the Mail and Express say. I did note that although the leavers promised £350m a week more to the NHS, the NHS is, since the leave vote, announcing that it is drawing up plans for cuts and a Tory MP is busy saying that we should have a special additional tax for health provision (a bit like NI he said).

Of course the best argument for a remain vote is that by tying German, France and Britain (and a few others) together, economically via the EU, militarily via NATO and socially via the ECHR (although the EU has played into this more recently) my fathers generation was probably the first in 5 to 10 that didn’t have to go and die in a Franco-Germano-British war. And nor have your generation or mine (I believe I am only a few years younger that you).
That’s worth a hell of a lot to me. Destabilising Europe is not a clever game.

To stay with the analogy of a relationship, it’s hardly “spiteful” if the partner being left proceeds to deny the leaving partner use of the telly remote control, wifi or netflix account, first pick from the wine rack or a say in whether the loo seat lives up or down…

Agreed. Thank you for answering your own question.

No I really did not in rhe way you think. The EU has not collectively helped it’s members, some have been winners amd others have been losers and in quite a big way. It’s a political vanity project

@igm what Leave said is;

We will have £350m a week to spend on our priorities like the NHS.

We all know the net confribution was more like £200m a week but it doesn’t really make a difference does it, 350 vs 200 they are both huge numbers. £10bn a year for the righ of the EU to sell us more than we sell them.

The IMF have already eaten humble pie and admitted their impact predoctions where way overstated. Manufacturing up, tourism up (both classic responces to a lower currency although the £ is recovering back steadily now). There has of course been no “punishment budget”, no collapse in the housing market etc

The real economic picture will be judged 3, 5 and 10 years from now. I remain highly confident.

Interesting even if you don’t agree Absolute load of shit:

Fixed that for you.

A quick note on tariffs.

It is very easy for us to move our financial services booking point into Europe, most UK banks and financial services provoders who sell into Europe already have branches etc in Europe. Think how Apple, Amazon etc base themselves in a singke country for booking business but in reality produce their product elsewhere. Now trying doing that with German Car manufacuring or French agricultural production etc.

We do not need access to the single market. Yes if we can have it it makes things a bit more business as usual but its not worth the budget cost we pay and its certainky not worth the cost in a transfer of Sovereignty and freedom of movement which benefits business via depressed wages but hurts our citizens.

@phii we are not making unreasonable demands, we are asking for a sensible business deal. Business deals do not include ceeding sovereignty or giving a foreign court supreme powers

although the £ is recovering back steadily now

Perhaps you’re looking at a different chart to me? Are you sure you’ve got 2016 up?

Jamba – I admire your confidence.

I will agree that the real economic picture will be judged in 3-10 years – however there will have been so many other variables by then that it may be difficult to make an objective judgement. If Germany tanks and we soar then it will be clear and also vice versa – other than that though you won’t be able to normalise all the other factors. So there will be an effect and we’ll probably still as a nation be arguing about it every time someone tries to claim it was good or bad.

My own view – I’ll be fine, people like you have wrecked the opportunities of my children’s generation. And on that basis my knee jerk reaction, which I’m fighting, is not just to do the best I can for my own children, but to elbow everyone else’s children out of the way wherever I can. Not nice and I’m fighting it like I say, but that’s where a divisive vote on trying to break something up that was as you say set up to further Europe’s common interests in meeting the economic challenge of the States takes people like me.

And just to help you, what Leave actually said (well painted on a bus – check the photos) was

‘We send the EU £350 million a week – let’s fund our NHS instead. Vote Leave.’

Now we can argue over whether or not that means instead of spending £350m on our EU club subscriptions should spend it on the NHS (it’s pretty clear that’s implied if, for the benefit of wriggly weaselly politicians, not explicitly stated), but what it definitely doesn’t say is “post a leave vote you can expect NHS cuts and possible NHS related tax rises”.

So stop wiggling. Or do you know about some small print that doesn’t show up in the photos?

In other news, the Janis Joplin documentary on BBC 4 was quite entertaining / interesting.

Jammers darling – you are aware that the British economy doesn’t just consist of ****ing massive companies and banks that can just get their massively paid minions to go and set them up some Apple or Google style arrangement in the globalised world, and thus remain unaffected?

What about all the SME’s? Without easy access to the market, they’re ****ed! But it appears that the corporate lobbyists already have their agenda mapped out, and the government will simply grant them their wishes.

It is quite enlightening hearing from people like yourself to see the actual agenda. that whatever happens, corporate welfare must take priority over everything.

In? Out? Same old, same old…..

So much for ‘Taking Back Control’?

From who?

Igm… that Janis Joplin documentary was really good. Just watching Al the old Whistle Test stuff now. Talking Heads – Pyscho Killer. BOOM’

Leaving aside the fact they were lying…

I think if anything has been amply demonstrated in the last few months, both with the EU ref and the ongoing Trump Campaign, its that it a lie isn’t a false statement anymore. Something demonstrated to be a lie is now ‘the sort of thing that would be true’.

I really have no problem with tax dodgers being pursued.
Amazon next hopefully.
We could sell stuff as cheaply as them if we really didn’t have to worry about paying tax.
3 cheers EU.

Is that article mean to be ironic or something?

I don’t have a different view of Europe now – I do, however, have a very different view of the UK.

Does make me laugh that people say well all the disasters you said would happen haven’t happened. Well duh, of course nothing has happened PM May hasn’t pulled the trigger yet. Why hasn’t she done it? When will she do it?

We will have £350m a week to spend on our priorities like the NHS.

We all know the net confribution was more like £200m a week but it doesn’t really make a difference does it, 350 vs 200 they are both huge numbers. £10bn a year for the righ of the EU to sell us more than we sell them.[/quote]
We did all know that yes, though some people did have a problem admitting it. However some simple Maths, If I offer you enough money to buy a really nice mountain bike or enough to buy the same mountain bike and a decent spec road bike which is more? 350 is 1.75×200 – nearly double!!

And of the 200 we still promised to fund all those projects that were going on (paid for from that cash and anything else)

Anyway I know opening this thread was a mistake it’s just a quick summary of the mega thread with the same old fantasists hammering their fingers in their ears.

There’s also the awesome selfishness of “If anything, I’m already a little bit better off.”

It’s a view I’ve heard from quite a few Leave voters – “I’m all right, so stop your whingeing.”

I, being a Scot, was being supplied with free beer in Annecy last week. No idea if that’s because they though Scots were pro-Europe or because they thought Britain was taking a lead on breaking up the stable Europe of the last 70 odd years, but in Annecy that’s a considerable economic boost to my wallet.

‘You are no lover, you are a succubus …’

😕 I’m embarrassed for him

I don’t have a different view of Europe now – I do, however, have a very different view of the UK

This^^^

Enjoyable parody of the BS that is/was Brexit

I am also confident in our future but dismayed that we chose to make this unnecessarily challenging by abandoning a situation that allowed us to maximise the benefits/minimise the weaknesses of EU membership…

…on the basis of lies, xenophobia and racism. So yes, a different view on the UK too