ambalaya – Member
@gordimor – I would imagine he was referring to resigning as a Minister and not as an MP.
That was my point.The Cabinet Office guidelines state that ministers are still in charge of their department during the election campaign which makes Carmichael a minister when he lied about having no knowledge of the memo till it was published.When the report came out Carmichael admitted that he was wrong and said that if he had been a minister at the time he would have considered it a cause for resigning. Yet he was a minister and he did not resign.

So there’s the leak and the lying?

Which is the issue that he would resign for? Both or one of them? Or something else? Perhaps the waste of money?

Is the case that he should resign for deliberately lying and also asking a deputy to cover for him?

Given their small size, the Libs have had some proper rum buggers over the years haven’t they?

Thorpe, Cyril Smith, Oaten, Huhne, Rennard, Hancock etc.

WTF is it with Michael White’s moustache?

[video]https://youtu.be/CkXPfVeqNG0[/video]

This “well, everybody lies” line really isn’t helping is it?

David Mundell also gave a very carefully worded answer when asked what he knew about it:

[video]https://youtu.be/tcJWcjwYMfc[/video]

I DONT BELIEVE IT

So the Grauniad’s Ass Ed thinks it’s OK to lie, because everyone does it. That’s them finished for me. I’ll stop accepting their freebie in Waitrose.

@ben, Mundell clearly knew the memo existed based upon his reply. I don’t think that would be a surprise as the memo was pretty explosive politically even if for me and I would imagine many others its contents are no surprise at all.

You can imagine what you want as you have clearly demonstrated on this thread/issue.
the main problem is you cannot prove a word of what you have imagined as it at odds with the facts.

I think its safe to say most folk , including the person who wrote the memo and all those present, dont think its true.

If this wont convince you then nothing will

It really is JHJ type debating here.

Apparently a couple of legal bods have offered their services free of charge so it appears the legal action will be going ahead to have his appointment overturned sooner rather than later…

politicians seem to be one of the few parties that are free to lie without as sanction other than the ballot box.

^This, sadly.

There’s no sanction for politicians who spout the most brazen, bare-faced lies. At the very least, they should be obliged to forfeit their generous pension, allowances and future eligibility for holding a company directorship if they’ve been found to have supplied wilfully false or misleading information.

Perhaps that’s a good basis for an online petition?

There’s no sanction for politicians who spout the most brazen, bare-faced lies.

Well actually there is, it’s the same as for anyone else. The one big exception is the “parliamentary privilege” legal immunity granted to elected politicians in Parliament. But other than the protection given to politicians speaking on the floor of the House of Commons they are subjected to the same sanctions as anyone else. Several politicians have served prison sentences in recent times for lying.

I think its safe to say most folk , including the person who wrote the memo and all those present, dont think its true.

Not what I’ve read. Most think she said something along those lines, eg she preferred Cameron over Miliband as a leader and that if the Conservatives where to win it would be good for the SNP

I think the chances of the election result being overturned in the courts are pretty minimal, let’s see.

Several politicians have served prison sentences in recent times for lying.

But not enough. One notable politician told the biggest lie that’s been told in decades and he still walks free.

Also, a number of politicians seem hell bent on covering up the sexual abuse their peers dished out to children.

I’d respond that far too many are telling lies without fear of sanction.

Given what they say about folk living in glass houses, it is ironically amusing to recall that salmond was proposing a conservatory extension to the official residence. Who would have removed the stones from his pockets?

The bare faced cheek of a guy who appears to have done the same thing about legal opinion re EU, plan B, the nature of currency and sent his deputy to cover for him is breathtaking if not unexpected.

Two rules of engagement

The ends always justifying the means
Do as I say, not as I do

Did he leak lies attributed to his opposition about those things, or just voice an opinion you don’t agree with?

MSP, my position is clear. To repeat

Dislike leaking, detest lying, deplore hypocrisy – all are evident in this case

What is not clear or apparent,

I hope there is an application of universal principles at work here though.

Little or no credit anywhere in this debacle. Still, dear Nicola got what she wanted or was it other way round?

Most

think

something along those lines

eg

You start multiplying these variables together and it doesn’t look anywhere near “I have no doubt” which you said earlier in the thread. Why have you decreased your previous level of certainty then jambalaya?

MSP, my position is clear.

Yes you are making up stories because you do not like Salmond, you are accusing him of lying because you disagree with his political position, you are lying and failing to hold up the ideals you are demanding.

Most think she said something along those lines

No one thinks this except you NO ONE _ re read this thread everyone mocked you.
No offence but it is near delusional to claim that anyone thinks what that memo said is true including the authour 🙄 To claim most think is true is bonkers/JHJ levels.

Can you please just stop saying its true when he apologised he admitted it was not true.

Well since his comments on taking (or not) legal advice on the issue of EU membership is a matter of public record we can each make our own minds up, can’t we?

I will let you put the stones back in his pockets then!

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/scotland-office-memorandum-leak-cabinet-office-inquiry-statement

Cough

Things I’ve seen elsewhere, which I don’t know much about, but am inclined to believe…

1. The business of government continues right up until they jack it in or whatever, so ministers etc are still in post. So he was still in the job when he said he wasn’t. That’s an extra lie, and him a solicitor.

2. There are two different writing styles in the memo as published. The first part being measured precise english as one would expect from a civil servant, the second, other and different.

I’ll leave this with you.

I think you both have a point
THM is undeniably correct that AS lied about that
However MSP has a point that we are on a thread about another MP lying and all you have done is tell us how much AS/SNP lies and not commented on the MP [ if you have I missed it – have you commented on the issue we are discussing?] caught lying – you are doing this due as you are politically motivated by your contempt for AS /the SNP and you seem determined to turn any thread into a SNP / AS bashing attack.
Many of us pointed out that all politicians lie and you admit your views on AS are clouded and here we have another MP lying and yet you fail top comment except to tell us all how bad a liar AS is

Score draw as you both have a point.

Need some strepsils THM?

Can you please just stop saying its true when he apologised he admitted it was not true.

How could Carmichael reliably say it was not true? He wasn’t there when it was alleged to have been said.

Saying it wasn’t true is as much of a lie as saying it was true!

Why on earth would the French Consul General, in a confidential discussion with a British civil servant, suggest it had been said if it hadn’t? What did he have to gain from it?

Even if you try and rely on ‘lost in translation’ (was there even a translator there? The French Ambassador seems fairly proficient in English, though I don’t know about Sturgeons French oral skills) then there must have been some discussion along those lines.

re read this thread

This thread is hardly representative of public opinion. Quite a lot of people think she said that or something very similar. Not least the person who wrote the memo.

IMO Carmichael tried to do a mega apology including saying he didn’t think it was true (which actually is not what he said, see my earlier post) just to try and make it go away

Quite a lot of people think she said that or something very similar. Not least the person who wrote the memo.

We’re into angels on the head of a pin territory here. “Quite a lot of people think” is not the strongest foundation for holding up anything to scrutiny.

Its also a straw man.

The issue is the leaking of the memo and the subsequent lies. The veracity or otherwise of the memo is largely irrelevant.

Its also not most which was what he said so he also moved the goalposts.

and confessed that she’d rather see David Cameron remain as PM (and didn’t see Ed Miliband as PM material). I have to admit that I’m not sure that the FM’s tongue would be quite so loose on that kind of thing in a meeting like that, so it might well be a case of something being lost in translation.

Only you could think that this is someone not raising any doubts about the accuracy of the comment and wholeheartedly supporting it as true. Its not really possible to take this seriously and even JHJ would not be this daft.

BRILLIANT 😆

Its hard to take you serious tbh.

Perfectly happy with my stance

Dislike leaking, detest lying, deplore hypocrisy – all are evident in this case. Little credit anywhere. Sorry state of affairs…

Completely consistent. I dislike leaking and detest lying – AC guilty as charged. No excuses. No ambiguity. He should take full responsibility.

I watched with interest and without comment (as Gordi noted) until the blatant hypocrisy of AS’ position and those who chose to condone his behaviour became too much. Oh and the factual errors re what people are saying hence the link to the government website.

Thanks for your concern Gordi, but I will decline your kind offer.

Stands corrected Apologies as I missed that post.
I do agree to many folk draw up a political border and are unwilling to criticise their side when it does wrong…my party right or wrong.

FWIW I missed the AS one [ or I have forgotten it] on the EU advice…that is indefensible as well. Like a bad episode of in the thick of it.

I do think carmichael he should have to face the electorate though and allow them judge whether he is fit to represent them.

AS got brilloed on those “muddled and incomplete” answers last night, (about 32 minutes in) and had the full on head wobble going, clearly very uncomfortable at being reminded of it!

For the fun of it, this is Alex “not confirming or denying the existence of legal advice”

[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DsMI2rF0y_Q[/video]

@ninfan which programme are you referring to, 32 mins in ?

Sorry Jamb – this week

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b05x80zm/this-week-28052015

Edit: can I correct that to footage of Alex “not confirming about specific legal advice, or even its existence” 😆

“What you can say is that everything we publish is consistent with the legal advice that we receive” – at least that bit was true 😉

This Week

EDIT: Slow, was enjoying watching Salmond squirming too much.

was enjoying watching Salmond squirming too much

Why do you think I am asking 😀

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b05x80zm/this-week-28052015

Actually AS is correct, he speaks of the “art of politics” being to not lie. What he of course means is to give an evasive or misleading answer without it being a lie. “Economical with the truth” as Andrew Neil says for example with the SNP fighting a freedom of information request to prevent access to legal advice which they never actually had, the existence of which they had clearly given the strong impression did exist.

I come back to Carmichael’s letter where he speaks of the details being incorrect, the inference being he believes the general thrust of what was written is true. His crime, a serious one, was to lie about the leak. He failed in Salomond’s words at the “art of politics”

The amount raised for the legal fees is now over £40,000

This isn’t going to go away.

Steady now we are mocking AS for something that happened months ago

The ability of some England dwelling RW to get worked up by AS is limitless and timeless as well

JY, we are speaking of the programme last night, it did happen to bring up something from a while ago.

@epic, no issue at all with filing a legal challenge, filing sand winning are of course two different things. I’m surprised the Wier’s haven’t put up the money to be honest