Another name to add to the list – amazon, google, apple, starbucks, uber, Facebook.
All US based – coincidence or indicative of innovation or ‘a f*** you’ attitude?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41543449

legal but morally abhorrent.

We used to tax windows.

We no longer do.

The world changes, how trade and commerce is undertaken changes. Fiscal policy needs to adapt too.

e.g. Business Rates (an annual tax based on c.%50 of the rental value of a property estimated 10+ years previously) have been out of date for over a decade but there’s no appetite to reform them. In the meantime all small retailers get reamed for an annual tax that has no relationship with their economic activity while offshore or even onshore warehouse online retail operations have the tiniest fraction of the real estate tax liability to deal with.

Freelances or contractors working from home?…watch out, we’ll be next. HMRC are eyeing up ways to tax home based enterprise that avoids all the old types of tax that used to capture the economic activity in out of date business models. And that is as it should be.

Business will always strive for the most efficient path, and that applies to tax as much as productivity. Tax law cant stand still and beg the world to do the same.

Business is bushiness. Any perceived morality is the lubrication used in marketing, brochures and on shiny websites for the plebs to lap up.

Funny, well not so funny is all the complaints mean governments will hammer the small guys not the big guys, just to be seen to be doing something.

Personally I think the real injustice is where legitimate businesses that were paying tax and contributing to both local and national economies, including employing people, have been forced out by operators able to ply their trade with massive tax advantages, using outsourced and centralised labour. The majority of customers don’t give a flying **** because cheapness and their convenience is king.

Seems too much of a coincidence the largest and most prolific are American. Can’t help but think agendas have been shaped and manipulated across the globe to make it thus. I’m sure the Tories are chomping at the bit to sign a trade deal that is completely advantageous to America and it’s international businesses in return for trinkets/small change.

On a more disturbing note is how tech businesses in league with banks and governments offer mass surveillance (governments always go “oh yes please”) so they can grease the wheels toward operating monopolies on their terms, deciding rules of the game unilaterally, with vested interests, associates, opportunists and the simpletons cheering them on.

The tail is wagging the dog IMO.

We must change the law, simple as that. It is quite simply too easy for tech / gig economy companies to legally avoid tax. Brexit provides an opportunity to put this right, I hope we take it.

Some AirBnB numbers;

UK rents £3.4bn paid to home owners (largely untaxed I imagine)
£650m ArBnB fees (tax paid £200k !!!)

Care to explain how the EU is preventing the UK from collecting tax on the 3.4bn? (and how much is not taxed)
Many other countries are doing simple things like applying a business tax to people renting out their homes more than x days/year or making Uber drivers register and get checks like taxi’s all things the UK can do right now.

If you want a deal to stop cross border tax efficiency then you are going to need cooperation and motivation. Given the number of tax havens associated with the UK not sure if all the Government manage is to make sure the cash goes through the one they like holidaying in.

My point was about corproate tax which is the subject of this thread. EU is one giant tax scam. Its just too easy to shift profits about and play off Irrland vs Luxembourg for the cushiest tax deal. This is exactky the way AirBnB takes £657m and pays 188k in tax here. Look at Amazon, 75% of the European profits where not taxed at all thanks to th cushy deal with Luxembourg (agreed under Junker)

As for the £3.4bn the £7,500 annual tax free limit it for rentals should be abolished (I think it’s 7.5k) – we are in a new world far from taking in a lodger.

AirBnB is a business model desiged to undercut hotels who pay local business taxes and employ staff. The whole “BnB” tag is a fraud. Its a hotel replacement business

The EU is making efforts on tax, the Apple ruling is evidence of that.
The reason for the 3.4bn part was that you brought it up, so it’s part of conversation and part of what the UK can do a heap about these days.
When did the UK put any proposal forward to the limit tax stuff? Isn’t the UK proposing to become one of these tax havens undercutting corp tax rates to attract people to the UK?

I agree stuff should be done but don’t blame the EU for the UK governments inaction on the majority of the issues.

The EU has almost no impact on these sorts of the planning strategies, it has never made significant strides on corporate tax harmonisation, just a few small steps. Leaving the EU will neither help nor hinder our ability to tax these companies as we will still be bound by one of the most extensive tax treaty networks in the world.

The issues facing tax authorities are two fold. First, the value in most businesses these days is in intangible assets which are far more mobile than physical assets, so it is relatively easy to site them where the best fiscal result is achieved. Second, huge value is “created” by businesses that don’t make significant profits (see Amazon) – so what does one tax.

The arrogance and swagger of these middle men, that’s what they are just an added tier. They avoid all the dirty work from central control locations, impose terms on everyone else with the aid of powerful financial partners. Only forward integrating the cherries when they have full control, leaving the small fish to eat each other 😆

When did the UK put any proposal forward to the limit tax stuff? Isn’t the UK proposing to become one of these tax havens undercutting corp tax rates to attract people to the UK?

Under the Coalition.

How much should they have paid?

My point was about corproate tax which is the subject of this thread. EU is one giant tax scam. Its just too easy to shift profits about and play off Irrland vs Luxembourg for the cushiest tax deal. This is exactky the way AirBnB takes £657m and pays 188k in tax here. Look at Amazon, 75% of the European profits where not taxed at all thanks to th cushy deal with Luxembourg (agreed under Junker)

Yet the EU (ironically, under Juncker) is currently taxing the shit out of Amazon, Apple et al because of their previously favourable tax deals. How’s the UK going with the ones it can influence? I recall reading how a majority of the top 10 UK multinationals hadn’t paid any corporation tax in a recent year. The UK is perfectly capable of handling that without the EU interfering. Or doesn’t that fit the narrative of nasty EU politicians ruining the UK?

AirBnB is a business model desiged to undercut hotels who pay local business taxes and employ staff. The whole “BnB” tag is a fraud. Its a hotel replacement business

Also… duuuuurrrrr…. of course it is. That’s why they’re partnering with WeWork; to compete directly with hotels for business travellers. If anyone hasn’t worked out that they’re just an alternative to booking.com (only with far less convenience for the traveller) then they’re an idiot.

Who sets the tax rste?

If Ireland choses to compete on tax why would companies not locate there and account in the way they do?

Picking on the wrong villain here

A quick dig through a Guardian article from last December shows £143 million as the UK turnover of which they declared £1.4m profit. Somewhat different to the figures quoted above.

If that £143million is the total rental income they get to keep 3% of that or £4.3million (rounded figure). The press stories are a good example of obfuscation where we are being led by the nose by a vested interest somewhere. I can just about manage a household income so the terms used in finance can be a unclear to me. I do remember that turnover is vanity and profits are where it’s all at. If I were an AirBnB investor I would be asking some searching questions of the board regarding the return on my money.

Current articles suggest 657m GBP so if your 3% is true, their total revenue is 20M with 200k paid in corporation tax. I guess you then have to ask how much they pay in marketing, salaries, stock options, fancy office space rental, expensive tax lawyers etc given 19% should go on corporation tax so they supposedly have under 1M GBP profit 😉

Again, though, transfer pricing and costs are entirely legal and governments can take steps outside this to sort out correct payments. As far as I know, the French government has told Google they can’t shift their French revenues to Ireland to save on taxes.

As far as I know, the French government has told Google they can’t shift their French revenues to Ireland to save on taxes.

They tried to but they failed, governments are bound by the rule of law.

EDIT: That article is misleading in that it perpetuates the myth that the double Irish structure is what reduces the French tax base. It is not, it is the contract structure that does that and this could be replicated in loads of different countries. The Irish structure is important from a US tax perspective.

FT no sub no ready

Brexit provides an opportunity to put this right, I hope we take it.

Quite the opposite – it’ll make it easier to dodge.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/18/european-commission-to-crackdown-on-offshore-tax-avoidance

Quite the opposite – it’ll make it easier to dodge.

As that article says, the UK has had such a regime for 13 years, the EU rules if they are ever made – Commission is long as rhetoric, short on action when it comes to tax – is unlikely to add much to what we have already got.

And now it’s eBay in the spotlight.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41582844

To the individual, their corporate tax issues are likely the least of the concerns with airbnb.
Where I live, airbnb has served to literally obliterate available long term rental inventory and consequently pushed the price of remaining rental units to the moon. Tennants who are essentially being evicted for either the unit owners ability to list with airbnb or capitalise on the new norm for market rental rates probably couldn’t care less if airbnb pay their taxes.
I get it though, have someone in for 1 weekend a month or every day for the same income…

We used to tax windows.

Seems like we should tax iOS instead now.